[Transcend]

GM says the average UAW laborer makes $29.78 per hour, while Toyota says it pays about $30 per hour. The point of being in the union is to get the benefits. The reason that GM pays a lot more in worker-related costs is because of those that are already retired, Toyota doesn't have nearly as many as retired people they are paying for.

Even the UAW says their average worker makes closer to $40, and many workers make upwards of $60 based on seniority and the job being done.

No one said that the lowest paid workers were going to take a hit.

For $30 an hour, workers can purchase their own healthcare. But hey, now for the few months of work they have left, they can visit the doctor for free! Cutting of your nose to spite your face is never a great idea.

You (and more than a few other Americans) need to pull your head out with regards to this issue. The big 3 need to cut costs, they can do this. The UAW refuses to allow it and the workers will end up paying the price.

 

[dan-o]

What health care "should" be is a non-issue.
Other manufacturers, using happily employed non-union workers, are able to build better vehicles at a lower labor cost than UAW factories.

The labor market has shifted and the UAW needs to adjust because UAW factories can no longer compete at their rates. If they won't/can't realize this they will find ALL their jobs gone.

Also, should nationalized healthcare suddenly appear, do you think the UAW would accept the same wages and non-union automakers? I don't.

 

[Samirol]

Even the UAW says their average worker makes closer to $40, and many workers make upwards of $60 based on seniority and the job being done.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/congress_autos

Cutting of your nose to spite your face is never a great idea.

That's exactly what the Republicans are doing here.

 

[IH8Rice]

Does getting laid off mean you go into the job bank though? You still get fully pay for doing nothing in that case.

the UAW said they are stopping the Jobs Bank...i dont know if its been implemented yet though.




oh and GM said they are cutting 250,000 cars out of their Q1 production.

 

[$tinkle]

However, the Republicans have been opponents of any sort of healthcare reform

[GOPtalkingPoints]
The President's plan will help more Americans afford health insurance by reforming the tax code with a standard deduction for health insurance - like the standard deduction for dependants.
• The Affordable Choices Initiative will help make basic private health insurance available and will provide additional help to Americans who cannot afford insurance.
• These two policies will work together to help more Americans afford basic private coverage...
• The President's proposal will lower taxes for millions of Americans who now purchase health insurance on their own, making their insurance more affordable.
[/GOPtalkingPoints]

that's just the sitting lame duck; i'm sure i could dig up a bunch more from RollCall, but i'll leave that as an exercise to the reader

 

[rockwool]

Amazing that the republicans and some here complain about workers salaries, and above that their benefits, while Bush's taxcuts for the wealthy were a cost that the nation defenately should take (and obviously Obama thinks so too as he isn't going to touch them!).

Defenestrated, what were the figures that Bernie Sanders talking about when speaking of the gains which every family member of the 400 richest families had made?

 

[Samirol]

Rockwool, from 2003, source the NYTimes:

The 400 wealthiest taxpayers accounted for more than 1 percent of all the income in the United States in the year 2000...The data, in a report that the I.R.S. released last night, shows that the average income of the 400 wealthiest taxpayers was almost $174 million in 2000. That was nearly quadruple the $46.8 million average in 1992. The minimum income to qualify for the list was $86.8 million in 2000, more than triple the minimum income of $24.4 million of the 400 wealthiest taxpayers in 1992.

Sorry Stinkle, I meant to say meaningful health care reform.

 

[rockwool]

Rockwool, from 2003, source the NYTimes:

Good, now we have a reference, even if it's old and probably has gotten way worse since then, on what "greedy" and "overpaid" is.

 

[Defenestrated]

it's more socially acceptable to rage against the UAW instead of the top 1%

 

[IH8Rice]

it's more socially acceptable to rage against the UAW instead of the top 1%

the top 1% didnt just help the bailout FAIL did they

 

[Defenestrated]

I still don't see why the employee's should be punished with wage cuts because of management's failings.

 

[IH8Rice]

I still don't see why the employee's should be punished with wage cuts because of management's failings.

if they dont want to give a inch, then itll be partly their fault when these companies go down the crapper.

when a business is in dire need of help/reviving, then anything and everything needs to be done to turn it around, and that includes (god forbid!!), overpaid union workers taking a pay cut to keep themselves employed

theres no doubt that management was a huge problem to all the companies' downfall, but these union prima donnas need to wake up and smell the napalm in the morning

 

[Transcend]

the top 1% didnt just help the bailout FAIL did they

Heh, well considering this is where most of their CEOS reside tax-wise... :biggrin:

 

[IH8Rice]

Heh, well considering this is where most of their CEOS reside tax-wise... :biggrin:

hmmmm ya got me there.....but they wanted the bailout...the union obviously doesnt

 

[Samirol]

if they dont want to give a inch, then itll be partly their fault when these companies go down the crapper.

when a business is in dire need of help/reviving, then anything and everything needs to be done to turn it around, and that includes (god forbid!!), overpaid union workers taking a pay cut to keep themselves employed

theres no doubt that management was a huge problem to all the companies' downfall, but these union prima donnas need to wake up and smell the napalm in the morning

they aren't overpaid any more than the non-union workers are overpaid, they are paid the same wage, but union jobs give more benefits

hmmmm ya got me there.....but they wanted the bailout...the union obviously doesnt

That's like saying "hm, I guess Palestinians don't want a homeland otherwise they would have accepted Israel's demands"

 

[IH8Rice]

That's like saying "hm, I guess Palestinians don't want a homeland otherwise they would have accepted Israel's demands"

please dont compare the UAW to radical terrorist.

and the UAW obviously didnt want to anything to happen this year, or they would have conceded and accepted some sort of proposal/compromise




and come to think of it, their CEO's are rich, but do they really fall into the top 1%?

 

[Samirol]

please dont compare the UAW to radical terrorist.

and the UAW obviously didnt want to anything to happen this year, or they would have conceded and accepted some sort of proposal/compromise

Palestinians aren't a radical terrorist organization, just like Americans aren't gung ho imperialistic cowboys. They've given up the job bank, allowed the companies to delay payments to the retiree healthcare trust, accepted a $4/hr cut, and agreed to renegotiate their contracts.

It says a lot when someone reads Palestinians and automatically assumes terrorists.

edit: The qualifier for the top 1% is $462,000/yr, so they are in the top 1%.

 

[IH8Rice]

It says a lot when someone reads Palestinians and automatically assumes terrorists.

edit: Yes, they would be in the top percent, the top percent make at least $462,000 a year

okay, sorry 49% of them are terrorist. people who resort to violence to get their way, is a form of terrorism.

i know plenty or Palestinians and ALL of them have issues of what is going on in their homeland.
granted, they want their land, but to resort to violence to prove a point, will never work



and top 1% is really $462k+ a year??

 

[Transcend]

Palestinians aren't a radical terrorist organization

Yes, Hamas is a radical terrorist organization. They are also the governing political party of Palestine. Thus, they are the people making a large majority of the decisions on the peace process with regards to Palestinians.

Notorious for its numerous suicide bombings and other attacks on Israeli civilians and security forces, Hamas also runs extensive social programs and has gained popularity in Palestinian society by establishing hospitals, education systems, libraries and other services throughout the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Hamas' charter calls for the destruction of the State of Israel and its replacement with a Palestinian Islamic state in the area that is now Israel, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip.

 

[Silver]

the top 1% didnt just help the bailout FAIL did they

No, their bailout (which was at least 15 times as large) sailed through without anyone taking a good look at it...

God forbid a guy making 60K a year with health insurance gets a little help...

 

[Samirol]

i know plenty or Palestinians and ALL of them have issues of what is going on in their homeland.
granted, they want their land, but to resort to violence to prove a point, will never work

It worked several times against British and French imperialism in the Middle East, and of course they have issues with what is going on there, any reasonable person does.

It isn't acceptable, but it has worked several times in the past.

 

[Samirol]

Yes, Hamas is a radical terrorist organization. They are also the governing political party of Palestine. Thus, they are the people making a large majority of the decisions on the peace process with regards to Palestinians.

The government isn't the people, not all Americans support the Iraq War, imperialism, etc.

 

[Silver]

Yes, Hamas is a radical terrorist organization. They are also the governing political party of Palestine.

Part of Hamas is. The other part of Hamas is a functioning government.

In the last 8 years, who has killed and tortured more innocent people? Hamas, or Uncle Sam?

 

[Transcend]

It isn't acceptable, but it has worked several times in the past.

No, it hasn't worked. It simply perpetuates the cycle of violence, it does nothing to better their situation at all. It simply swaps one conflict for another. Rinse. Repeat.

 

[Transcend]

The government isn't the people, not all Americans support the Iraq War, imperialism, etc.

And where exactly did I say they were?

The govt is who is accepting or rejecting the peace process decisions, not the people. Thus, the gov't is responsible for this process. The governing party is indeed a terrorist organization bent on the destruction of Israel; not exactly someone who should be negotiating peace with them to begin with.

 

[IH8Rice]

No, their bailout (which was at least 15 times as large) sailed through without anyone taking a good look at it...

15times as large?? really? cause they were about to get $14bil, when they requested $34bil originally


the UAW was going to lower wages AFTER their contract expires in 2011

 

[IH8Rice]

It worked several times against British and French imperialism in the Middle East, and of course they have issues with what is going on there, any reasonable person does.

It isn't acceptable, but it has worked several times in the past.

of course its worked in the past, it doesnt make it right though.
and in today's world, it isnt socially acceptable.

And where exactly did I say they were?

The govt is who is accepting or rejecting the peace process decisions, not the people. Thus, the gov't is responsible for this process. The governing party is indeed a terrorist organization bent on the destruction of Israel; not exactly someone who should be negotiating peace with them to begin with.

+1 up

 

[Samirol]

No, it hasn't worked. It simply perpetuates the cycle of violence, it does nothing to better their situation at all.

It worked in Iran

of course its worked in the past, it doesnt make it right though.
and in today's world, it isnt socially acceptable.

Of course it isn't acceptable, but it is understandable why it is a reaction.

@Transcend: I said Palestinians, as a group of people, weren't terrorists. Israel made demands that couldn't be met when Arafat was in power.

Sorry for making a somewhat controversial claim that not all Palestinians are terrorists.

 

[IH8Rice]

It worked in Iran



Of course it isn't acceptable, but it is understandable why it is a reaction.

Anyway, back to the UAW

awesome comparison.
Palestine=Iran....my thoughts exactly


youre right..lets stay on topic

 

[Transcend]

awesome comparison.
Palestine=Iran....my thoughts exactly

I'd lump Israel in with them as well. They are just as responsible for the problems, possibly more so.

 

[IH8Rice]

I'd lump Israel in with them as well. They are just as responsible for the problems, possibly more so.

Iran=Palestine=Israel=UAW



more better?

 

[Samirol]

awesome comparison.
Palestine=Iran....my thoughts exactly


youre right..lets stay on topic

the point is that violence can work, anyway, the point is that the demands that are being placed on the UAW are unacceptable considering that they will be paid less than non-unionized workers.

 

[Transcend]

awesome comparison.
Palestine=Iran....my thoughts exactly

Violence doesn't work.

Also, Iran is far from peaceful. Waging an 8 year war with Iraq and possibly about to get into it with just about all of their neighbors due to radical threats they continue to make.

They are currently funding an insurgency in Iraq, the second Intifada in Iran. Peaceful my ass. They are simply perpetuating the violence through proxies now instead of on their own. There will be blowback, probably sooner than later.

Using the Iranian Government as an example of, well, anything, is insane. They are simply at a low point in their cycle of violence and hatred. Go hang out in Tehran and let me know how peaceful and tolerant the population is.

 

[IH8Rice]

the point is that violence can work, anyway, the point is that the demands that are being placed on the UAW are unacceptable considering that they will be paid less than non-unionized workers.

but not reducing wages until 2011 is nuts, wouldnt you agree?

Violence doesn't work.

Also, Iran is far from peaceful. Waging an 8 year war with Iraq and possibly about to get into it with just about all of their neighbors due to radical threats they continue to make.

They are currently funding an insurgency in Iraq, the second Intifada in Iran. Peaceful my ass. They are simply perpetuating the violence through proxies now instead of on their own. There will be blowback, probably sooner than later.

Using the Iranian Government as an example of, well, anything, is insane. They are simply at a low point in their cycle of violence and hatred. Go hang out in Tehran and let me know how peaceful and tolerant the population is.

wait, i didnt say Iran was good

 

[Silver]

15times as large?? really? cause they were about to get $14bil, when they requested $34bil originally


the UAW was going to lower wages AFTER their contract expires in 2011

How big was the bailout of the financial sector?

That's your bailout of the top 1%. It's going to cost more than $1T by the time it's finished. You think that benefits people with no checking account?

 

[Transcend]

From the UAW's website:

By 2000 that assembler's basic annual pay (based on 2080 hours a year) was $47,798 while dues had risen to $552.

Making $47,798 (in 2000) is not hurting for money. (That was at about 22.50 an hour). At $30 (the entry level pay) that equates to $62 500 an hour.

I know plenty of people with Masters degrees and more earning less than that. These idiots need to shut the hell up and get back to pressing buttons and screwing nuts in a factory. If they can't afford their own health insurance at $62 500, they need to take a look at their personal budgets.

People wonder why the vast majority of Americans have zero sympathy for the UAW.

The average UAW worker with a high school degree earns 57.6% more compensation than the average university professor with a Ph.D. (see graph above, click to enlarge), and 52.6% more than the average worker at Toyota, Honda or Nissan.

Many industry analysts say the Detroit Three, and especially Ford, must be on par with Toyota and Honda to survive. This year's contract, they say, must be "transformational" in reducing pension and health care costs.

 

[Samirol]

People wonder why the vast majority of Americans have zero sympathy for the UAW.

That isn't really a mystery, it is frustration that the UAW organized and that white collar workers are "too good" to organize so they get screwed. White collar workers need to organize as well, but the FYIGM mentality is rampant.

Your quote is using the $73/hr statistic, which includes the benefits that retirees are getting. This statistic was debunked earlier in the thread, but I can repost it if needed.

 

[IH8Rice]

come on Fraser...pushing buttons is hard work! you push buttons for work! lol jk

 

[Transcend]

That isn't really a mystery, it is frustration that the UAW organized and that white collar workers are "too good" to organize so they get screwed. White collar workers need to organize as well, but the FYIGM mentality is rampant.

No, it's because unions need to stop strong arming businesses. Unions need to be outlawed the same way that price fixing has been. There really is no difference between setting the value of a good, and the value of labour.

GM or Ford could not hire workers who were not UAW affiliated. Therefore they have to bow to the demands or cannot produce their products.

Do you really think a high school degree holding assembly line worker should earn more than a PHD holding university professor?

If you do, you are deluded and need to smoke less pot.

 

[Samirol]

Do you really think a high school degree holding assembly line worker should earn more than a PHD holding university professor?

If you do, you are deluded and need to smoke less pot.

The lowest a university professor makes is around 70k/yr, and factory workers make less than that.