[IH8Rice]

Regardless of whether or not UAW concessions would make GM's task easier, you cannot deny labor a stake in the company and then punish it for losses incurred by mismanagement.

That is like punishing the citizens of a dictatorship for the failings of their dictator...

GM represents only one group of people, its shareholders.

and the hits just keep on coming...


labor can have a stake in the company....if they invest in the company as any other shareholder would, or the company can institute a ESOP program within itself.
jsut because they work for the company, doesnt automatically grant them ownership.

and your comment about the dictatorship can go both ways. yes you cant blame the citizens for their leaders' faults, but if and when they do fail, as if the case in the auto industry, you cant keep on going at the same pace you are at within a obvious needed change.

the UAW needs to pull their head out of their collective asses and swallow what little pride they have left, and come to new terms on easing their stranglehold on the automotive industry.
you all are arguing on how great the UAW is, but what you fail to realize is that a change is needed!
yes workers have rights. no they cant all be held accountable for their managments decisions, but YES they need a change, and it starts with the peons that assemble the cars!

if this wasnt a slap back to reality to the industry, then i dont know what is. management all the way down to the 1st grade education bathroom cleaner needs a change

 

[Defenestrated]

jsut because they work for the company, doesnt automatically grant them ownership.

GM is a private company existing within a regulated capitalist economy so this goes without saying.

labor can have a stake in the company....if they invest in the company as any other shareholder would, or the company can institute a ESOP program within itself.

What if the power your vote carried was directly proportional to how much money you paid for your it... that isn't democracy, that is plutocracy.

 

[Samirol]

and the hits just keep on coming...


labor can have a stake in the company....if they invest in the company as any other shareholder would, or the company can institute a ESOP program within itself.
jsut because they work for the company, doesnt automatically grant them ownership.

and your comment about the dictatorship can go both ways. yes you cant blame the citizens for their leaders' faults, but if and when they do fail, as if the case in the auto industry, you cant keep on going at the same pace you are at within a obvious needed change.

the UAW needs to pull their head out of their collective asses and swallow what little pride they have left, and come to new terms on easing their stranglehold on the automotive industry.
you all are arguing on how great the UAW is, but what you fail to realize is that a change is needed!
yes workers have rights. no they cant all be held accountable for their managments decisions, but YES they need a change, and it starts with the peons that assemble the cars!

if this wasnt a slap back to reality to the industry, then i dont know what is. management all the way down to the 1st grade education bathroom cleaner needs a change

The pay for GM workers is about the same as non-unionized, therefore what we need to do is look at the most expensive benefit that GM provides, health care. Raising a fit over wages is similar to a doctor being upset that a cancer patient is eating chocolate cake. Health care is a problem throughout every part of society, and is a major cost. Assembly workers aren't raking in $73/hr, it is about the same as Toyota's. The reason GM is failing and Toyota isn't is because Toyota doesn't have a lot of old people with health problems.

We need to fix the cancer, not worry about the chocolate cake. Even if wages were cut in half, it would have less effect than having health care taken care of.

 

[Defenestrated]

But universal health care is socialist.

 

[IH8Rice]

GM is a private company existing within a regulated capitalist economy so this goes without saying.



What if the power your vote carried was directly proportional to how much money you paid for it... that isn't democracy, that is plutocracy.

really? cause i could swear that they are listed on this little thing called the NYSE
http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=gm


i dont know even how to comment on your last "thought"

 

[IH8Rice]

The pay for GM workers is about the same as non-unionized, therefore what we need to do is look at the most expensive benefit that GM provides, health care. Raising a fit over wages is similar to a doctor being upset that a cancer patient is eating chocolate cake. Health care is a problem throughout every part of society, and is a major cost. Assembly workers aren't raking in $73/hr, it is about the same as Toyota's. The reason GM is failing and Toyota isn't is because Toyota doesn't have a lot of old people with health problems.

We need to fix the cancer, not worry about the chocolate cake. Even if wages were cut in half, it would have less effect than having health care taken care of.

and your points are valid. this has been discussed before on the topic on how much they actually make, and how much money goes towards GM's legacies.

but one of the MAIN reasons that this bill was shot down like a Scud missile was because the UAW wont move one god damn inch

 

[Samirol]

you keep posting like the UAW is strongarming GM, when they have given in considerably. They got rid of the job bank, took a $4/hr pay cut, reopened contract discussions with GM (not in 2012 or whatever year you posted), and agreed to allow delayed payments to the retiree healthcare trust.

What you want is nothing less than the complete destruction of the UAW, and you will criticize them every time they don't give in. The Republicans asked them to be paid less than non-unionized workers, which is ridiculous.

 

[IH8Rice]

you keep posting like the UAW is strongarming GM, when they have given in considerably. They got rid of the job bank, took a $4/hr pay cut, reopened contract discussions with GM (not in 2012 or whatever year you posted), and agreed to allow delayed payments to the retiree healthcare trust.

the Jobs Bank was just stopped as of just last week. how can getting 95% of your regular pay if you are laid off, benefit anyone but the employee?

and its 2011:
"The UAW was willing to consider lowering its wages across the board to meet those of non-union plants, but wanted to delay any cuts until after its current contracts with the Detroit 3 run out in 2011. Plus, it's not exactly clear what level of pay would be targeted, as foreign run plants pay a wide range of wages to their workers, even among plants owned by the same foreign automaker. Nevertheless, without the UAW conceding to cut wages immediately, Senate Republicans refused to support the bill and it failed late Thursday night during a procedural vote"
http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081212/ANA02/812129993/1197
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/12/12/workers-wages-the-straw-that-broke-the-automakers-backs/



and im not talking about a complete destruction of the UAW, just for them to realize that their strong-arming the auto industry isnt going to work at this time of our economy.

 

[Samirol]

Benefits are what's hurting the automakers, not wages, they are willing to talk benefits but not wages.

 

[IH8Rice]

Benefits are what's hurting the automakers, not wages, they are willing to talk benefits but not wages.

youre right. delaying payments starting in 2010.
http://www.autonews.com/article/20081203/ANA01/812039981

 

[Samirol]

youre right. delaying payments starting in 2010.
http://www.autonews.com/article/20081203/ANA01/812039981

I found a source that says 2009

http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1864085,00.html

delay payments to the retiree healthcare trust [VEBA] due during 2009

 

[Toshi]

i commend the republicans for rightfully shooting down the bailout. the Big 2.8 are gangrenous limbs of the american economy that should be amputated lest their infection spread elsewhere. if they're not competitive -- and the markets and auto buyers have deemed that they are not for sundry reasons -- then they shouldn't survive. QED.

 

[dan-o]

i commend the republicans for rightfully shooting down the bailout. the Big 2.8 are gangrenous limbs of the american economy that should be amputated lest their infection spread elsewhere. if they're not competitive -- and the markets and auto buyers have deemed that they are not for sundry reasons -- then they shouldn't survive. QED.

The same can be said of the health care industry. Just sayin.

 

[rockwool]

It was on the radio yesterday, I think, that the Swedish guvament is guaranteing loans of quite a few billion (20?) SEK, ~€2bn, for our auto industry. The rightwing guvament explicitly said that it won't buy and own a company.

 

[Samirol]

The South is a gangrenous limb of America that should be amputated lest their infection spread elsewhere. if they're not civilized -- and the Californians and New Yorkers have deemed that they are not for sundry reasons -- then they shouldn't survive. QED.

Now, joking aside, right now the auto industry is fairly critical component of the American economy. I can understand where you are coming from if the Big Three cannot be restructured to be efficient, but I think they can be restructured to be a company that delivers good products.

That's basically what it comes down to this, do you think the Big Three are beyond help or do you think they can be restructured? If they are beyond any hope, then we are just throwing away money, if they can be restructured, then if we don't invest in them, we are turning Michigan into Zimbabwe for ideological reasons.

We can prevent the massive unemployment that will occur from them collapsing, and during a recession, spending money to restructure companies that are vital to the American economy is vital.

 

[Toshi]

The same can be said of the health care industry. Just sayin.

i completely agree that the current health care system is in dire need of an overhaul. it's way too expensive, and it's not just because people are too fat, although that's a big part of it: we (we being doctors) order and are granted ridiculously expensive things like non-generic drugs under patent, CTs, MRs, radiation therapy, chemotherapy, esoteric surgical implants that cost $10k a pop, etc. and we don't bat an eye.

there's really no incentive for us to save money and as a result costs spiral out of control because these extra tests and procedures give us more info or control and lower the chance that we'd lose in court if sued.

i don't think wholesale reform of healthcare will come until the financing mechanisms, namely medicare, are completely bankrupt. but it will come.

 

[rockwool]

i completely agree that the current health care system is in dire need of an overhaul. it's way too expensive, and it's not just because people are too fat, although that's a big part of it: we (we being doctors) order and are granted ridiculously expensive things like non-generic drugs under patent, CTs, MRs, radiation therapy, chemotherapy, esoteric surgical implants that cost $10k a pop, etc. and we don't bat an eye.

there's really no incentive for us to save money and as a result costs spiral out of control because these extra tests and procedures give us more info or control and lower the chance that we'd lose in court if sued.

i don't think wholesale reform of healthcare will come until the financing mechanisms, namely medicare, are completely bankrupt. but it will come.

Strange that you that have an experiance of an all private system advocate that it will become cheaper if it got socialized instead. Here the right has during the past 15 years managed to rape our old system by saying that everything will become cheaper if privatized.

Sounds like you need a judicial reform to go with that medical. It's crazy that you don't dare act without constantly thinking that if you fault it will mean the bancruptcy of the hospital. The figures for similar damages being paid in our two countries differ with unbelievable amounts.

 

[IH8Rice]

It was on the radio yesterday, I think, that the Swedish guvament is guaranteing loans of quite a few billion (20?) SEK, ~€2bn, for our auto industry. The rightwing guvament explicitly said that it won't buy and own a company.

yes, they announced last week that Saab and Volvo are getting a couple bucks from your government.
a total of 25bil Krowns(sp?) or $3.1bil American pesos

...funny cause they arent bailing out their parent companies directly...Ford and GM

 

[rockwool]

yes, they announced last week that Saab and Volvo are getting a couple bucks from your government.
a total of 25bil Krowns(sp?) or $3.1bil American pesos

...funny cause they arent bailing out their parent companies directly...Ford and GM

Kronor.

Haven't cared to read anything about it but I guess it's intended indirectly. Dunno how and if it will help GM and Ford.

 

[IH8Rice]

Kronor.

Haven't cared to read anything about it but I guess it's intended indirectly. Dunno how and if it will help GM and Ford.

well its intended to help them out in Sweden by funding Volvo and Saab

 

[Toshi]

Strange that you that have an experiance of an all private system advocate that it will become cheaper if it got socialized instead. Here the right has during the past 15 years managed to rape our old system by saying that everything will become cheaper if privatized.

Sounds like you need a judicial reform to go with that medical. It's crazy that you don't dare act without constantly thinking that if you fault it will mean the bancruptcy of the hospital. The figures for similar damages being paid in our two countries differ with unbelievable amounts.

tort reform is part of the answer. the underlying structure, whether private, public, or something in between, is not the problem. instead, the problem is that in the current system neither patients nor providers have any incentive to keep costs down, and, as i pointed out, there are strong forces that push providers to order possibly unneeded, expensive tests.

 

[Samirol]

More proof to back up my theory that this is large scale union busting:

From:

Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 9:12 AM

To:

Subject: Action Alert -- Auto Bailout



Today at noon, Senators Ensign, Shelby, Coburn and DeMint will hold a press conference in the Senate Radio/TV Gallery. They would appreciate our support through messaging and attending the press conference, if possible. The message they want us to deliver is:



1. This is the democrats first opportunity to payoff organized labor after the election. This is a precursor to card check and other items. Republicans should stand firm and take their first shot against organized labor, instead of taking their first blow from it.



2. This rush to judgment is the same thing that happened with the TARP. Members did not have an opportunity to read or digest the legislation and therefore could not understand the consequences of it. We should not rush to pass this because Detroit says the sky is falling.





The sooner you can have press releases and documents like this in the hands of members and the press, the better. Please contact me if you need additional information. Again, the hardest thing for the democrats to do is get 60 votes. If we can hold the Republicans, we can beat this.

http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/12/12/1713569.aspx

This was sent to Senate Republicans and leaked to MSNBC

 

[splat]

Interesting Video

http://info.detnews.com/video/index.cfm?id=1189

I'd like to hear Westy's take on it.

 

[rockwool]

Interesting Video

http://info.detnews.com/video/index.cfm?id=1189

I'd like to hear Westy's take on it.

I wonder if the UAW has anything against that assembly line workers, as well as the brass and all those inbetween dress the same, and dine in the same hall, just like the Chinese army ones was totally without ranks.

 

[Westy]

Interesting Video

http://info.detnews.com/video/index.cfm?id=1189

I'd like to hear Westy's take on it.

I spent a lot of time at a Ford Engine plant in Brazil a few years ago. Basically everythig they said was true. They are following the same model that I see Toyota using in their US plants. In addition to being able to organize their supliers and equipment more efficiently the actual workers were top notch. They all had some levels of higher education and were well taken care of by the company. Everyone was also cross trained to do multiple jobs. If there was a small problem with a machine the operator fixed it instead of having to have an army of union electricians, pipe fitters, tin smiths, machine repairmen, and millwrights that would be required in a US plant.

The fact is Foreign auto companies are profitable manufacturing in the US. US auto companies are profitable manufacturing in foreign countries. The real difference is the UAW. They must change or they die and probably take the companies down with them.

Workers in Japanese ran US plants work in clean safe factories, are well trained and usually quite skilled. They make really good middle class incomes.

 

[IH8Rice]

I spent a lot of time at a Ford Engine plant in Brazil a few years ago. Basically everythig they said was true. They are following the same model that I see Toyota using in their US plants. In addition to being able to organize their supliers and equipment more efficiently the actual workers were top notch. They all had some levels of higher education and were well taken care of by the company. Everyone was also cross trained to do multiple jobs. If there was a small problem with a machine the operator fixed it instead of having to have an army of union electricians, pipe fitters, tin smiths, machine repairmen, and millwrights that would be required in a US plant.

The fact is Foreign auto companies are profitable manufacturing in the US. US auto companies are profitable manufacturing in foreign countries. The real difference is the UAW. They must change or they die and probably take the companies down with them.

Workers in Japanese ran US plants work in clean safe factories, are well trained and usually quite skilled. They make really good middle class incomes.

well said....but dont mention change with the UAW round these parts...people get a mighty pissed at ya if you do. oh lordy lord


the video points out one huge factor that makes this assembly better than most in the states....it can make 5 different vehicle at the same time on 1 line

 

[rockwool]

Crosstrained to do multiple jobs is a great thing, it keeps people healthy both physicly as mentaly.

What is a really good middle class income (in numbers so that I can get a reference)? And if the working class is making a middle class income, then who's making a working class income and what in turn is the middle class making?

I don't get all the union bashing in your country, how can working people to such extent buy into the ruling class' manipulations to devide us? Why does it work here without any similar amount of bashing? Have our unions sold their members out? Could be, I don't think highly of them in that matter.

 

[ohio]

well said....but dont mention change with the UAW round these parts...people get a mighty pissed at ya if you do. oh lordy lord


the video points out one huge factor that makes this assembly better than most in the states....it can make 5 different vehicle at the same time on 1 line

By "round these parts" do you mean where you live or RM PAWN? 'Cause rockwool and Samirol are the last pro-union holdouts in these here parts.

I blame management more than I blame unions, but I'd like to see 'em all strung up.

 

[Westy]

By "round these parts" do you mean where you live or RM PAWN? 'Cause rockwool and Samirol are the last pro-union holdouts in these here parts.

I blame management more than I blame unions, but I'd like to see 'em all strung up.

Not all unions are bad. I've been to a couple of plants where the unions had it figured out. They realized that the workers success were based on their productivity and the success of the company. They did fight for pay and benefits but they also did their best to work with the company to make things run smoothly. They trashed typical union rules and the shop stewards would kick people in the ass if they were ****ing off, they had ways of motivating people that normal employers couldn't. In return they were given the opportunity to retrain union members to other jobs if their jobs were replaced by a more efficient process. It was more of a Japanese style way of manpower management but with the manpower kind of contracted out to the union.

 

[Samirol]

The Japanese style of manpower management is that the workers take **** from management with a smile.

well said....but dont mention change with the UAW round these parts...people get a mighty pissed at ya if you do. oh lordy lord

I'm saying that you are unfairly criticizing them for not giving an inch when they just renegotiated in 2007, they have gotten rid of the job bank, and they said that they would renegotiate again with GM soon.

The UAW isn't what I would consider an example of a good union, but a mediocre union is far better than no union.

I don't get all the union bashing in your country, how can working people to such extent buy into the ruling class' manipulations to devide us? Why does it work here without any similar amount of bashing? Have our unions sold their members out? Could be, I don't think highly of them in that matter.

It ties into the "American Dream", and that the way to get what you want is to **** all over those below you. If someone is poorer than you, they didn't work as hard and they aren't as smart as you, and if someone is above you, then all you need to do is work harder to get there. It is the great American lie.

Unions go against the American Dream by saying that if you work together rather than against each other, then you can be successful. They achieve by collaboration, which isn't compatible in a plutocratic society.

 

[Transcend]

a mediocre union is far better than no union.

Only in your naive world.

 

[Samirol]

Only in your naive world.

I've already posted before about the benefits that unions give even in workplaces without unions. The bare minimum you need is one union in a given field to provide competition and a baseline for the rest of the field. That's why Toyota workers and UAW workers get paid about the same, but the UAW workers get better benefits.

 

[jonKranked]

I've already posted before about the benefits that unions give ....

Communism was a good idea on paper too.





Unions, like many political movements, were founded on sound theories and ideologies. Unfortunately, they've fallen victim to greed and corruption.

 

[DaveW]

Communism was a good idea on paper too.





Unions, like many political movements, were founded on sound theories and ideologies. Unfortunately, they've fallen victim to greed and corruption.

So much like the trickle down theory and capitalisim via the American style corperate conglomerates.........

 

[Samirol]

Communism was a good idea on paper too.





Unions, like many political movements, were founded on sound theories and ideologies. Unfortunately, they've fallen victim to greed and corruption.

There is a clear, positive effect on non-unionized workers when there is a union in the field, I can dig up the statistics if you are interested.

This isn't theoretical, this is actual results.

Edit: The only reason I'm hesitant to dig up the statistics is that usually people just say yeah whatever and keep on rolling with their opinions. I've given up on trying to show Transcend the measurable benefits that unions have to all workers in a field, but if you are willing to read it, I'll dig it up.

 

[ohio]

There is a clear, positive effect on non-unionized workers when there is a union in the field, I can dig up the statistics if you are interested.

Great, so in a given industry, we should elect one company the **** magnet that gets the union, and then every other company can benefit from that halo effect.

 

[ohio]

Not all unions are bad.

Should have said pro-UAW.

Unions have there place and can be run quite well (though I'd say its the exception not the rule), but the UAW is not one of those unions.

 

[Samirol]

Great, so in a given industry, we should elect one company the **** magnet that gets the union, and then every other company can benefit from that halo effect.

Well, they still benefit far less than the union workers.

If a union is run more as a direct democracy organization and less as an organization to lobby Congress with, then they are better. The UAW isn't a great union, but it successfully got their workers health care coverage and good pay.

It will hurt all factory workers in the U.S if the UAW goes, and will have a ripple effect that will hurt unionization in general in the U.S. I suppose most people on this board consider this a good thing, but luckily there will be a Democratic Congress that may spare the killing blow.

 

[IH8Rice]

The Japanese style of manpower management is that the workers take **** from management with a smile.

I'm saying that you are unfairly criticizing them for not giving an inch when they just renegotiated in 2007, they have gotten rid of the job bank, and they said that they would renegotiate again with GM soon.

you are right about Japanese management, but the workers take it with a smile because it is in our culture to listen to our boss and to follow our boss's will as a company whole.

yes, they did renegotiate last year after going on strike and after whining to get their way.
they just last week got rid of their Jobs Bank and offered to renegotiate after 2010...wow, thats really giving a inch. i guess itll help businss after 2010 right?

The UAW isn't a great union, but it successfully got their workers health care coverage and good pay.

the workers of transplanted auto makers here in the States arent all Union and they still offer competitive pay(although some are less than UAW jobs) and they still get full medical coverage as well.
they seem to be doing pretty good for themselves for the UAW not infecting them.
hell, if the top automakers in the world can do it, why can the Tiny Three do it?

 

[Samirol]

they said that they were open to renegotiation now, I already posted the source, they said they would delay healthcare trust payments in 2009, since 2008 is over.

The other workers got those benefits most likely because of the competition that the UAW provides. I posted earlier in the thread statistics about how unions increase benefits and pay for non-union workers.