[ohio]

I don't disagree that the UAW helped ensure good and fair working terms/conditions for ALL auto-workers in the US, but their time has passed. There are much better workers safety and workers comp policies in place now, and enough competition from foreign automakers for labor to create demand and some stability for labor.

They were a splint. Necessary for awhile to help the bones grow and heal, but they've been on so long that the flesh underneath is turning to a fetid, festering sore that will infect and kill the whole body.

 

[MMike]

They were a splint. Necessary for awhile to help the bones grow and heal, but they've been on so long that the flesh underneath is turning to a fetid, festering sore that will infect and kill the whole body.

Look at Mr. Analogy.....

 

[Upgr8r]

I don't disagree that the UAW helped ensure good and fair working terms/conditions for ALL auto-workers in the US, but their time has passed. There are much better workers safety and workers comp policies in place now, and enough competition from foreign automakers for labor to create demand and some stability for labor.

They were a splint. Necessary for awhile to help the bones grow and heal, but they've been on so long that the flesh underneath is turning to a fetid, festering sore that will infect and kill the whole body.

Bingo, I think you hit the nail on the head

 

[Samirol]

I don't disagree that the UAW helped ensure good and fair working terms/conditions for ALL auto-workers in the US, but their time has passed. There are much better workers safety and workers comp policies in place now, and enough competition from foreign automakers for labor to create demand and some stability for labor.

They were a splint. Necessary for awhile to help the bones grow and heal, but they've been on so long that the flesh underneath is turning to a fetid, festering sore that will infect and kill the whole body.

So the solution for crippling health care costs for companies that provide good coverage is to take away that health care coverage? That's ridiculous.

There is cancer in the arm, and you are blaming it on the cast (I don't think equating the UAW to a cast is accurate, but for the sake of metaphor consistency I'll say it)

 

[$tinkle]

Look at Mr. Analogy.....

he probably has "eat at joes on the span (by the embarcadero), it's really good food" tattoed on it

 

[$tinkle]

Canada to lose 600,000 jobs if Big Three automakers collapse

Canada Job Losses Would Be ‘Catastrophic’ in Automaker Collapse

so now where do i go when the econopalypse hits?

 

[Samirol]

so now where do i go when the econopalypse hits?

the food kitchen

 

[ohio]

So the solution for crippling health care costs for companies that provide good coverage is to take away that health care coverage? That's ridiculous.

I don't follow...

Toyota has the same health care system to deal with.

 

[ohio]

The Japanese style of manpower management is that the workers take **** from management with a smile.

What sort of experience or expertise are you speaking from?

What kind of **** are workers taking from management in Japan? Japanese companies are also traditionally far more loyal to the worker. While the interactions that result from the cultural heirarchy are odd to westerners, the companies pay their employees well, provide incredible long term stability, good retirement and family benefits, and much more empowerment in their roles (in terms of the process engineering, not ability to speak back to the boss... a very western concept).

Also, that model is clearly NOT at work in the US where the labor force isn't Japanese. Are you saying that Toyota and Honda are treating American workers like ****?

 

[jonKranked]

So the solution for crippling health care costs for companies that provide good coverage is to take away that health care coverage? That's ridiculous.

There is cancer in the arm, and you are blaming it on the cast (I don't think equating the UAW to a cast is accurate, but for the sake of metaphor consistency I'll say it)

You seem to have failed to grasp the meaning of his analogy, so here it is in plain terms:

Unions started to become the powerful forces they are now around the turn of the 1900's. Right around the time of the late industrial revolution when large scale manufacturing was growing (ie when the auto industry was starting). At this time, manufacturing at this scale was something new, and there weren't that many laws to regulate it. Unions more or less came to be so powerful as a means of ensuring the workers weren't taken advantage of, so to speak. As time progressed, labor laws came into place, as did the effectiveness of the Department of Labor (est 1903). Labor laws have gotten better (to the point many companies no longer view unions as necessary), but unions are still farting around.

 

[Samirol]

I don't follow...

Toyota has the same health care system to deal with.

They don't provide the same benefits and they don't have the same amount of retirees.

I've gotten the idea from various sources, I'll have the time to find them when I get back from class.

Jon, I understand his opinion, but to pretend that there isn't any exploitation or a need for unions is ridiculous. Management will never find labor unions necessary.

 

[ohio]

I think where we fundamentally differ is that you believe a union is almost always a good thing. I believe unions have a specific application, and are not always necessary.

In your own words, the UAW is a mediocre union. Well, if it were a mediocre business it would fail and die. Why shouldn't the slate be wiped clean on both sides?

 

[ohio]

They don't provide the same benefits

Do they provide unsufficient benefits?

and they don't have the same amount of retirees.

On the retirees and pension front, I have a hard time feeling sorry for both automakers and unions that helped create that monster. A pension *should* be self-funding, not a layaway exercise. It's not hard math to do. They both ****ed up, they should both suffer for it.

 

[Samirol]

I think where we fundamentally differ is that you believe a union is almost always a good thing. I believe unions have a specific application, and are not always necessary.

In your own words, the UAW is a mediocre union. Well, if it were a mediocre business it would fail and die. Why shouldn't the slate be wiped clean on both sides?

Your first paragraph is correct.

The UAW is pretty weak, which is why I consider it mediocre. They haven't gotten a foothold into Japanese plants, and that hurts negotiations and benefits, as well as not getting the benefits that Toyota workers should get. I consider a large majority of American unions mediocre, that doesn't mean that I want them abolished, because if they go, they won't come back.

As for Japanese manpower management, if you are referring to the general idea of company loyalty, then I somewhat agree. I'm referring to the 1980s when the Japanese worked much longer hours than anyone else, but that changed once unions got involved.

Do they provide unsufficient benefits?

The only way that we will get single payer health care is if unions put enough pressure on companies to provide lifetime health care, forcing companies to put pressure on Congress to provide single payer health care. So yes, I consider it insufficient, because all unions should be pushing for more health care costs on companies so companies will finally let single payer health care happen.

edit: oops, forgot to provide sources about Japanese management in the 80s (http://countrystudies.us/japan/104.htm). Since the Japanese workers worked a disproportionate amount of time until the unions stepped in, it is fair to say that Japanese management without the counterbalancing effect of unions was exploitative.

 

[Toshi]

Marty Feldstein, Harvard econ prof among other things, on the reasons why the Big 3 shouldn't be bailed out/why bankruptcy is a better option:

 

[Samirol]

Marty Feldstein, Harvard econ prof among other things, on the reasons why the Big 3 shouldn't be bailed out/why bankruptcy is a better option:

among those other things, chief economic advisor to President Ronald Reagan

 

[IH8Rice]

some great shots of the "old Detroit"
http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1864272_1810098,00.html
http://jalopnik.com/5110995/the-ruins-of-detroit-industry-five-former-factories

 

[IH8Rice]

new Volt engine plant put on hold, until they "asses their cash situation"

http://blog.wired.com/cars/2008/12/gm-puts-the-vol.html

 

[ohio]

"asses their cash situation"

[stinkle]
I see what you did there
[/stinkle]

 

[IH8Rice]

[stinkle]
I see what you did there
[/stinkle]

:huh:
i actually wanted to say "assess"....but hey it still works lol

 

[Toshi]

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/story?id=6491455&page=1

In an effort to convince Congress to bail out the U.S. automakers, company executives, union leaders and politicians have made the compelling argument that the industry directly and indirectly supports one in every 10 jobs in the country. The only trouble is nobody wants to take ownership of that statistic, which is almost certainly false.

The figure is routinely attributed to the Center for Automotive Research, but officials at the nonprofit organization, which has ties to labor and government, claim they never said it and have no idea where it came from.

 

[$tinkle]

probably pulled from the same ass that claims 1 in 10 americans have teh ghey

 

[IH8Rice]

probably pulled from the same ass that claims 1 in 10 americans have teh ghey

or the std thing

 

[ire]

or the std thing

Isn't that more like 1 in 5? people just can't seem to get enough of teh clap

 

[IH8Rice]

Isn't that more like 1 in 5? people just can't seem to get enough of teh clap

hey, you gotta build up a immunity some how

 

[$tinkle]

Isn't that more like 1 in 5? people just can't seem to get enough of teh clap

http://www.agapeprc.org/std.php

but, they're not exactly the CDC; i think true numbers are 1 in 20.

toshi?

 

[X3pilot]

 

[IH8Rice]

so Canada decides to give Chrysler and GM $4bil Canadian....which is like $4 USD right?

 

[Defenestrated]

1 Usd = 1.21148 Cad

 

[IH8Rice]

1 Usd = 1.21148 Cad

thanks Literal Larry

 

[Samirol]

thanks Literal Larry

correction, his name isn't Larry.

 

[DaveW]

Blimey, even the mighty Toyota has taken a large hit...... Toyota has forecast its first annual loss in 71 years!

 

[IH8Rice]

Blimey, even the mighty Toyota has taken a large hit...... Toyota has forecast its first annual loss in 71 years!

if they didnt take a hit, then they would be the only one out there who didnt. Ferrari is still claiming they arent being effected by the economy...riiighhhtt

 

[Transcend]

Ferrari probably isn't. Their typical customer is wealthy enough that they will be insulated from the drama for this sort of "small" purchase.

They may not buy a fortune 500 hundred or a new manhattan skyscraper, but their toys will remain.

 

[ohio]

Ferrari has been supply-limited since the 70s (maybe earlier) and has a wait list for at least 20 years. They've always left money on the table, which is really really hard for a public company to do. Aside from maintaining huge margins in good times, it will serve them really well in down times too. Expect the used Ferrari market to soften significantly though.

 

[IH8Rice]

Ferrari has been supply-limited since the 70s (maybe earlier) and has a wait list for at least 20 years. They've always left money on the table, which is really really hard for a public company to do. Aside from maintaining huge margins in good times, it will serve them really well in down times too. Expect the used Ferrari market to soften significantly though.

youre right. ever since Enzo produced his first car, they have been limited. current wait time for a new car is 2 years, unless you buy from dealer stock.
but how did they leave money on the table? they are part of the Fiat group, so total control is not in Ferrari's hands

 

[ohio]

youre right. ever since Enzo produced his first car, they have been limited. current wait time for a new car is 2 years, unless you buy from dealer stock.
but how did they leave money on the table? they are part of the Fiat group, so total control is not in Ferrari's hands

"Leaving money on the table" is the way most large companies would view undersupplying demand - they COULD have sold more cars each year. The smart and long-term view (that Ferrari has had and Fiat has supported) was that by purposefully undersupplying, they maintain their margins, their brand, and ensure stability even if demand dips.

Contrast that with GM who, in an idiotic and meaningless ego trip, have consistently oversupplied demand to try to make sure they were "the world's #1 carmaker" then have had to offer massive discounts and dump supply onto rental fleets, crushing their own margins and brand equity.

Not saying that a boutique manufacturer and economy manufacturer should have the exact same strategy, but the differences in management discipline are obvious and glaring...

 

[IH8Rice]

i see where youre coming from.

 

[dan-o]

Contrast that with GM who, in an idiotic and meaningless ego trip, have consistently oversupplied demand to try to make sure they were "the world's #1 carmaker" then have had to offer massive discounts and dump supply onto rental fleets, crushing their own margins and brand equity.

Not necessarily that cut and dry since the UAW contracts required compensation for furloughed/laid off workers (job bank). If you gotta pay the labor you might as well produce something.

100% agree on the idiotic and ego points when referring to their car divisions though. Toyota wins the 'idiotic and egotistic' award for their continued and spectacular Fail re: trying to break into the full size truck market.

 

[IH8Rice]

Toyota wins the 'idiotic and egotistic' award for their continued and spectacular Fail re: trying to break into the full size truck market.

they looked at the F-series trucks and saw they have been the #1 selling vehicle in the US for 15 years, and thought they wanted to tap that ass too.

the Tundra is a lot better than the Titan though