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ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,649
26
SF, CA
Not necessarily that cut and dry since the UAW contracts required compensation for furloughed/laid off workers (job bank). If you gotta pay the labor you might as well produce something.
That reinforces my point. Because of UAW contracts, GM has a harder time ramping down production, therefore they should NOT try to match total demand in an up-year because if there's a dip they won't be able to scale back. They should match demand to a down year, or at most, and average year. They won't be as big (revenues) but they'll maintain profitability and efficiency (utilization of contracted labor) with much more stability.

That they have been offering massive discounts and dumping cars into rental fleets for year after year after year, means that their production planning is broken... whether you want to blame that on management or UAW, I don't care. I'm just making the point that they've been producing far too many cars, even for good years, and it's okay to sell out your inventory and "leave money on the table."

100% agree on the idiotic and ego points when referring to their car divisions though. Toyota wins the 'idiotic and egotistic' award for their continued and spectacular Fail re: trying to break into the full size truck market.
But for Toyota it's only one model, and while they weren't completely successful in breaking into that market, you don't see a huge surplus of Tundras offered at huge discounts (except when gas prices peaked and you couldn't give away big trucks). They only produced what they could actually sell. Toyota's was a marketing and design failure and somewhat limited (Tundras actually do really well on the West Coast), while GM's was a corporate strategy failure that applies to every division.
 
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IH8Rice

I'm Mr. Negative! I Fail!
Aug 2, 2008
24,524
494
Im over here now
i wouldnt call the Tundra a design failure. its hard to compare any pickup to the Ram and F150. both sell in stupid amounts, but the Tundra is a big truck with a big engine, and does everything you need to with a pickup.
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,649
26
SF, CA
i wouldnt call the Tundra a design failure. its hard to compare any pickup to the Ram and F150. both sell in stupid amounts, but the Tundra is a big truck with a big engine, and does everything you need to with a pickup.
Yeah, you're right... I probably should have said just marketing failure. I think they're great trucks, but what I mean specifically is it took Toyota too long to get to a true (American-style) full size.

(at the same time, I think the new Tacoma is way too big...)
 

dante

Unabomber
Feb 13, 2004
8,807
9
looking for classic NE singletrack
I like the idea of cutting brands, but don't Buick and Cadillac both cater to the same old, boring, luxury crowd? Also, if each brand had a distinct purpose, and a specific target consumer, GM can have as many brands as they want. The thing that kills them is when you have a Chevy dealer competing with a Pontiac dealer for a sale on the Cobalt / G5. Or Aveo / G3, etc.

If Pontiac is going to be your sporty brand, drop the ride height of all the cars by .5-1", and include a performance intake / exhaust or something to make it drive differently than the Chevy that it is. Same with Saturn, if you want to target first time buyers and younger people, don't put out mid size SUVs and $32,000 roadsters.

How about the Vauxhall Tigra? Could probably bring it over for $17-18 as a Saturn?


Or the Astra with the 2.0t engine instead of the weak-assed 1.8 that they brought over?

They've got a ton of cars to make Saturn a "Euro" or even just a "foreign" brand similar to what it was when it originated, but instead they made it just another bloated American car brand, and now they're cutting it since it's "too similar to the other brands..."
 
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IH8Rice

I'm Mr. Negative! I Fail!
Aug 2, 2008
24,524
494
Im over here now
I like the idea of cutting brands, but don't Buick and Cadillac both cater to the same old, boring, luxury crowd? Also, if each brand had a distinct purpose, and a specific target consumer, GM can have as many brands as they want. The thing that kills them is when you have a Chevy dealer competing with a Pontiac dealer for a sale on the Cobalt / G5. Or Aveo / G3, etc.

If Pontiac is going to be your sporty brand, drop the ride height of all the cars by .5-1", and include a performance intake / exhaust or something to make it drive differently than the Chevy that it is. Same with Saturn, if you want to target first time buyers and younger people, don't put out mid size SUVs and $32,000 roadsters.

How about the Vauxhall Tigra? Could probably bring it over for $17-18 as a Saturn?


Or the Astra with the 2.0t engine instead of the weak-assed 1.8 that they brought over?

They've got a ton of cars to make Saturn a "Euro" or even just a "foreign" brand similar to what it was when it originated, but instead they made it just another bloated American car brand, and now they're cutting it since it's "too similar to the other brands..."
all good points. its just too bad GM didnt realize something as obvious as this years before. all their brands have been competing w/ similar/exact same models for years. they just have a bunch of redundant models IMO
 

rockwool

Turbo Monkey
Apr 19, 2004
2,658
0
Filastin
It's really sad if GM goes because of the fresh design style that Caddillac has been showing us these past 5-8 or so years. Of all US brands they, together with Jeep, are really the ones that are best representing the revival of the glory years of US American car design.
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,649
26
SF, CA
Actually, I agree. Cadillac is a bright spot in the GM portfolio. What they've been able to do within the confines of that organization, starting with a Grandpa brand, has been really impressive.
 

rockwool

Turbo Monkey
Apr 19, 2004
2,658
0
Filastin
You should lay off the weed.
Haven't you heared about what a spliff a day does? No really, looking at it purely designwise they've succeded better than any other brand (except for Jeep that isn't comparable looking at history) in creating a car that looks unmistakingly US American and damn good too boot.

It's a totally new design, just like the Cab Forward designs were in the 90', but without any retro influence compared to the C300, but they've managed to make it look the business (unlike Cab Forward and 90's Caddies). The retro muscle cars are OK, look realy US American and all, but they don't bring anything new to the table. How will we look at them in 30 years, I wonder?

Are they still strictly grandpa car or do pimps and other young choose them as cruiser cars equiped with Davin's dubs?
 

rockwool

Turbo Monkey
Apr 19, 2004
2,658
0
Filastin
i know its not about GM, but Chrysler merging with Fiat is unreal IMO but a welcome merger as well:

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/01/20/breaking-chrysler-and-fiat-announce-partnership/#continued
It's far more exciting to think of the vehicles that might come this way from Fiat, but who knows, maybe some market, somewhere, will discover it can't get enough of the Sebring.
Fiat sure has a lot to gain by using Chryslers dealers and service stations to sell their brands, and like the quote says they have some really interesting and beautiful cars. Alfa is probably my favourite brand due to their interior and exterior designs that have Alfa design history beautifully incorporated to them. Although, their latest cars designed by Giogiaro don't measure up, instead Lancia has made the best looking 'everyday' saloon with their Thesis.

http://www.lancia.com/cgi-bin/lancia.dll/LANCIA_COM/models/models.jsp?BV_SessionID=@@@@0294023092.1232569631@@@@&BV_EngineID=cccdadegfhkjfeicefecejgdfkhdfjl.0&categoryOID=-1073793434


^^^ABSOLUTELY!!! My *only* complaint is that it's only a 5sp and not a 6sp. Cruising to work every day at 70-75mph sucks when you're buzzing high in the RPM range. It'd be the only reason I'd look into a MCS or MiTo instead.

Essesse please!!
The number of gears don't say as much as the highest+final gearing combo.

Love the MiTo! What's an MCS?


Fiat Panda FTW! :D
pelo, a fellow monkey, almost bought a 4x4 Panda some years ago. :busted:
 
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dante

Unabomber
Feb 13, 2004
8,807
9
looking for classic NE singletrack
The number of gears don't say as much as the highest+final gearing combo.

Love the MiTo! What's an MCS?
Totally agree on gearing, but most 5sp aren't geared towards running at 75-80mph I've found... Or if they are, driving at speeds 1-74mph totally suck.

MINI Cooper S - currently the only real fun, SMALL turbo hatchback you can get in the US.
 

rockwool

Turbo Monkey
Apr 19, 2004
2,658
0
Filastin
Totally agree on gearing, but most 5sp aren't geared towards running at 75-80mph I've found... Or if they are, driving at speeds 1-74mph totally suck.

MINI Cooper S - currently the only real fun, SMALL turbo hatchback you can get in the US.
I remember that at least early 6sp Alfa and VW boxes were geared directly (sporty), instead of having the 6th as a high fuel saving gear. But of course, you testdrive before buy..

Yeah, that car is really cool and as a station it's even cooler!!
 

IH8Rice

I'm Mr. Negative! I Fail!
Aug 2, 2008
24,524
494
Im over here now
Dealership rationalization was something General Motors was looking at well before the economy went pear-shaped. GM still has more than 6,300 dealerships in the U.S., and it is even more important now to start shedding some of that financial burden. That is why The General told dealers at the NADA conference that it plans to get rid of 1,600 dealerships by 2012.

GM's initial viability plan to Congress proposed an eventual reduction to 4,000 dealerships. No one knows yet, though, how GM plans to do that. GM said it will explain the dealer elimination plan in the follow-up viability plan it submits to Congress on February 17. Said one GM dealer, "They basically said, 'We're looking for strong dealers, and if you're not a strong dealer, you better evaluate your options."

GM did say that 400 dealers per year being shut isn't a firm number, simply a target. Nevertheless, dealers are none too happy. Some dealers say GM is using GMAC to force dealers out by setting capital requirements beyond a dealer's reach. GM says it has no intention of using GMAC in such a way. When the time comes, dealership liquidation will be be judged market by market, and based on a number of factors including age, location, volume, capitalization and customer satisfaction. While the plan will obviously save GM money in the long term and make it more efficient, in the short term it is going to cost GM a fortune to close 1,600 locations.

(Source: Automotive News, sub req'd, Photo by Justin Sullivan/Getty)
i bet Ford is LOLing at everyone
 

Toshi

butthole powerwashing evangelist
Oct 23, 2001
39,638
8,683


REPORT: GM considering Chapter 11 filing that would create new company, UAW walks away from negotiating table

The Wall Street Journal reported yesterday that General Motors, once very outspoken against the mere concept of the B-word, may now actually present it as an option – assuming the federal government would be willing to bankroll the debtor-in-possession financing that would need to accompany a Chapter 11 filing. According to the Journal, in this scenario, GM's "viable assets " (unspecified U.S. brands and its international ops) would then be reorganized into a new company. Everything else would get liquidated or sold off in bankruptcy court. While no names are mentioned, it doesn't take a Harvard MBA to know what's potentially on the chopping block. Of course, the other option is for the government to maintain the status quo and simply give GM more bailout money to let it continue operating.

[...]

Meanwhile, the UAW, unsurprisingly, is playing hardball with everybody. Automotive News reports that the union has walked away from the bargaining table with GM over the concessions the automaker wants regarding the $20 Billion it owes in payments to the retiree health care fund. GM wants the union to take half that sum in stock instead of cash. The UAW is unimpressed. Automotove News paints a similarly bleak picture regarding talks between the UAW and Chrysler. Of course, if either GM and/or Chrysler were to basically call the UAW's bluff and file for bankruptcy, the union's tactics backfire, as its current contracts would become meaningless pieces of paper and new deals would have to be negotiated.
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,649
26
SF, CA
the union has walked away ... over the concessions the automaker wants regarding the $20 Billion it owes in payments to the retiree health care fund. GM wants the union to take half that sum in stock instead of cash. The UAW is unimpressed.
Well ****, the union isn't stupid. Why would they want a stake in a failing company?

Oh, wait.