[$tinkle]

With this morning's bombing of various trains in madrid by the ETA separatist group, killing 120 & injuring over 1,000, ain't it hi-time to maybe put aside political correctness & start serious eradication of the enemy within our (& UK) borders?

If not now, then what is your threshold?

 

[fluff]

Is it confirmed that it was ETA?

How would you propose we eradicate the enemy in our midst. We would need to know who they are.

 

[Tenchiro]

Originally posted by fluff
Is it confirmed that it was ETA?

How would you propose we eradicate the enemy in our midst. We would need to know who they are.

You know, THEM!



Ve vill ztart vith zee quesztion azkerz. :angry:

 

[$tinkle]

Originally posted by fluff
Is it confirmed that it was ETA?

interior minister said so. He seems to be in authority to level this charge, and has a 25 years of awareness. Oh, & body count is 173 & climbing like a ring-tailed lemur.

Originally posted by fluff
How would you propose we eradicate the enemy in our midst. We would need to know who they are.

sorry to report that i cannot find one major conflict w/o collateral damage. So, i don't think their precise identity needs to be known, but it would be convenient.

My point/question being: Should we amp up the chase? How? Do the PC ground rules of racial profiling no longer apply? If your threshold is farther out, please define

 

[LordOpie]

i'm ignorant on the subject, so for those who are too, here's what i've found...

What is ETA?
ETA is a leftist group that uses terrorism in hopes of forming an independent Basque state in parts of northern Spain and southwest France. ETA stands for Euskadi ta Askatasuna, which means “Basque Fatherland and Liberty” in the Basque language. The State Department lists ETA as a foreign terrorist organization, and the United States and the European Union have frozen ETA assets since the September 11 attacks. Spain has long fought ETA and opposes an independent Basque homeland, though its 1978 constitution designated an autonomous Basque region with responsibility for education, health care, policing, and taxation.

Does ETA have ties to al Qaeda?
No. ETA’s secular nationalist agenda has nothing to do with the Islamist fundamentalism of Osama bin Laden’s terrorist network, and there is no credible evidence of any systematic cooperation between ETA and al Qaeda, experts say. But Qaeda cells have been discovered in Spain. In November 2001, Spanish authorities arrested eight men suspected of being Qaeda operatives involved in the September 11 attacks. One of these men reportedly had past links with ETA’s unofficial political wing, Batasuna, which the Spanish Supreme Court banned in March 2003. In September 2003, Spanish judge Baltasar Garzon said the September 11 attacks were partially planned in Spain.
more

So I'm confused, what's this got to do with the US, UK, et al. internally? We should support Spain, I guess, but it doesn't have anything to do with us directly, right?

 

[$tinkle]

yeah, i just 'bout chat myself when i saw this:

Who are the Basques? — The Basques are a linguistically and culturally distinct Christian group that has lived since the Stone Age in the mountainous region that straddles the border between modern-day Spain and France. The Basques have never had their own independent state, but they have enjoyed varying degrees of autonomy over the centuries under Spanish and French rule. About half of the 2.1 million residents of the three provinces that make up the autonomous Basque region speak fluent Basque or understand some of the language. Basque nationalists include other areas with smaller Basque-speaking minorities—the Spanish province of Navarre and three departments in southwest France—in their vision of a Basque homeland.

so much for racial profiling, eh?

is this thread dead yet? my suppositions certainly are.

 

[Westy]

Originally posted by LordOpie
i'm ignorant on the subject, so for those who are too, here's what i've found...


So I'm confused, what's this got to do with the US, UK, et al. internally? We should support Spain, I guess, but it doesn't have anything to do with us directly, right?

Methinks Stinkle confused ETA with an Islamist group, that or I am really confused.

 

[Tenchiro]

Friggin' christians...

 

[Westy]

Originally posted by Tenchiro
Friggin' christians...

We should kill everyone with any serious religious beliefs, they all cause problems. Agnostics rule, you never hear of anyone killing because of their uncertainty about god.

 

[BurlyShirley]

I think the man's just saying that trains are an easy target for terrorists here in the states also, and that racial profiling could be helpful in thwarting such attacks.
And that topic is what's open for debate.

 

[LordOpie]

Originally posted by $tinkle
is this thread dead yet? my suppositions certainly are.

no, but does split it into two topics:

1. Is this tantamount to, say, the Irish? Not saying the Basque are, just trying to get a feel for the situation which I know nothing about.

2. The article says they found evidence of an Islamic link, but the two terrorists groups aren't known to associate with each other, so let's speculate

 

[$tinkle]

Originally posted by Westy
Methinks Stinkle confused ETA with an Islamist group, that or I am really confused.

yep.

can i go home now?

 

[Tenchiro]

I think in order to prevent an anti christian backlash, we need camps set up where they can be temporarily re-located so their safety is insured...

 

[Westy]

Originally posted by $tinkle
yep.

can i go home now?

No, face your shame.

I was confused at first to. The article refered to a van with tapes from the quran nearby. If it was not considered evidence on who dun'it why talk about it. Bad reporting.

 

[$tinkle]

Originally posted by LordOpie
2. The article says they found evidence of an Islamic link, but the two terrorists groups aren't known to associate with each other, so let's speculate

i read another blurb about finding a tape made in arabic & "al quaeda" was lobbed about in the same article.

so i guess i got a little own3d & maybe a little punk'd.


gonna keep reading the crawler...

 

[$tinkle]

so, now my prejudices have been vetted, and now it seems it was al-quaeda (apwire).

But, do i lose street credit? I mean, it was a few key words in a couple articles that fed into my expectations. It certainly wasn't thorough investigation which led me to start spouting off at the keys.

This does raise the spectre of how should we then live? (francis schaeffer reference)

oh, gratuitous gore:

 

[Westy]

Even if it was Al-Kayda, racial profiling seems to be a very inefficient way of doing things since 99.999999% of Muslims are regular peace lovin' folk. Trying to track or ban the millions of innocent muslims or arabls would be quite ineficient.

Any good organized well funded terrorist organization would still be able to hold attacks. You can pay a greedy scumbag to kill just as easy as it is to convince someone to do it for free.

 

[$tinkle]

Originally posted by Westy
Even if it was Al-Kayda, racial profiling seems to be a very inefficient way of doing things since 99.999999% of Muslims are regular peace lovin' folk. Trying to track or ban the millions of innocent muslims or arabls would be quite ineficient.

Any good organized well funded terrorist organization would still be able to hold attacks. You can pay a greedy scumbag to kill just as easy as it is to convince someone to do it for free.

absolutely true. if i lacked a moral compass & really wanted to get my meathooks on that new Turner DHR, then i would take on funding for an immoral act like this one.

I seem to recall the israelis wanted to hang pig entrails in all of their buses so the suicide bombers would think twice about entering allah's presence covered in swine. But, i guess that only works in "martyrdom"

 

[valve bouncer]

Well if there was any proof that racial profiling worked then I guess I could understand but seems to me that it's a stupid way of going about things. Richard Reid anyone?????

 

[BurlyShirley]

Originally posted by valve bouncer
Well if there was any proof that racial profiling worked then I guess I could understand but seems to me that it's a stupid way of going about things. Richard Reid anyone?????

I dunno. People may take offense to this, but if I'm getting on a plane and they're doing random checks on people...Id feel better if they checked out the arab guy with the backpack. Sure, he might feel a little harassed, and I know that sucks, but If just one plane with 150 people on board is saved from destruction at 30,000 feet, then its worth the emberassment of a couple dudes in an airport somewhere. Its a simple losses and gains thing with me, just like the gay marriage deal...I could care less what color you are. Hell, if most terror suspects had green eyes, and they spot-checked everyone with green eyes before getting on the plance...Id gladly volunteer my time for the sake of the comfort of the other passengers, and id do my best not to be offeded.

 

[valve bouncer]

Originally posted by BurlySurly
I dunno. People may take offense to this, but if I'm getting on a plane and they're doing random checks on people...Id feel better if they checked out the arab guy with the backpack. Sure, he might feel a little harassed, and I know that sucks, but If just one plane with 150 people on board is saved from destruction at 30,000 feet, then its worth the emberassment of a couple dudes in an airport somewhere. Its a simple losses and gains thing with me, just like the gay marriage deal...I could care less what color you are. Hell, if most terror suspects had green eyes, and they spot-checked everyone with green eyes before getting on the plance...Id gladly volunteer my time for the sake of the comfort of the other passengers, and id do my best not to be offeded.

I think you missed the point a bit Shirley. Racial profiling does no good if the terrorist is a person who isn't part of your profile. It's no good checking the Arab with the backpack if it's the blue eyed woman in 23A with the shoe bomb. Anyone can be a terrorist, anyone. Tim McVeigh......

 

[BurlyShirley]

Originally posted by valve bouncer
I think you missed the point a bit Shirley. Racial profiling does no good if the terrorist is a person who isn't part of your profile. It's no good checking the Arab with the backpack if it's the blue eyed woman in 23A with the shoe bomb. Anyone can be a terrorist, anyone. Tim McVeigh......

No, i get your point, and anyone can find an exception to any rule in the book. But for the latest round of attacks on the US, profiling could serve to be a useful tool, even if it only serves as a deterrant. Go ahead and claim that most al-queda members are not arab in descent and I will disagree.

 

[valve bouncer]

Originally posted by BurlySurly
No, i get your point, and anyone can find an exception to any rule in the book. But for the latest round of attacks on the US, profiling could serve to be a useful tool, even if it only serves as a deterrant. Go ahead and claim that most al-queda members are not arab in descent and I will disagree.

I don't quite see how racial profiling would have stopped 9/11. As I understand most of the hijackers were in America legally and the stuff they used to hijack the plane was legally able to be brought onto the planes at that time. Seems to me that racial profiling is a waste of time because as soon as it starts the terrorists are just gonna use people who don't fit the profile. Are you gonna tell me there aren't members of Al Quaida who know how to use colored contacts, skin lightening cream and hair dye? The answer lies in better screening and intelligence before people even get to the airport, let alone get on the plane.

 

[Silver]

Profiling works.

For about 5 minutes. Then the tactics change. For an example, see the women suicide bombers in Israel.

 

[BurlyShirley]

Look fellas, I appreciate your intentions here , really, but anything we can do to make it more difficult to hijack a plane is worth it IMO. I mean, sure they can do this and they can do that and people can find a way to do just about anything these days. But to say, screw safety in the name of not hurting someone's feelings is a little rediculous in my mind. I think if its tougher to do, less of it will happen...like anything else in the world. Just seems that simple to me.

Silver, better intel is great...you're right...but profiling could even enhance that in some ways. and its probably done anyway. Lets say a few years ago you did background checks on all the arab guys attending flight school. That'd give you some better Intel.

We may just have to agree to disagree for the 9,000th consecutive time here.

 

[Silver]

Hey, if magic pixie dust makes you feel better, more power to you.

 

[valve bouncer]

Shirley the whole point is that it doesn't make it more difficult to hijack a plane. It's a false sense of security, window dressing if you like and does nothing to solve the problems. It's pandering to bigotry and people who can't come up with more imaginative solutions to complex problems.

 

[Silver]

Let me flesh out why I don't think profiling works.

I have to fly 10-15 times a year (I hate it, but that is another thread.) Since 9-11, I've been able to subject myself to a search pretty much at will. How?

If I shave, wear my glasses and have a nice button up shirt on, I breeze through. Not even a second look. If I wear my contacts, don't shave, and look a little bit like a skater or a surfer, I get pulled over for extra screening almost every time at LAX. Personally, I think they are looking for drugs...but I sure don't feel any safer.

Flying back out of Canada, interestingly enough, the security checks are much more random and intensive. And Vancouver in particular seemed very thorough.

Personally, I'm a lot more worried about a Stinger or SA-14 hitting the engine 10 seconds after takeoff...

 

[BurlyShirley]

Originally posted by valve bouncer
Shirley the whole point is that it doesn't make it more difficult to hijack a plane. It's a false sense of security, window dressing if you like and does nothing to solve the problems. It's pandering to bigotry and people who can't come up with more imaginative solutions to complex problems.

Im not saying its the f***ing end-all to terrorism here, but to suggest that his could in now way contribute to the effectiveness of intelligence gathering to help stop terrorist attacks on US soil is simply incorrect. I mean, cataloguing all visits from mid-east nations would in a sense be a form of profiling.,...right? Are you saying that could not possibly play into an investigation? That a guy known to be an al-queda member couldnt possibly be found that way?

 

[Tenchiro]

It wouldn't stop the Timothy McVeigh's of the world.

 

[Skookum]

 

[valve bouncer]

Originally posted by BurlySurly
I mean, cataloguing all visits from mid-east nations would in a sense be a form of profiling.,...right? Are you saying that could not possibly play into an investigation? That a guy known to be an al-queda member couldnt possibly be found that way?

That's not racial profiling Shirley unless you're dimwitted enough to believe that race equals nation. But even that wouldn't work as plenty of Al Quaida members have Western passports.

Edit- As far as NATIONAL profiling goes, isn't this already being implemented in the form of different visa rules for different countries?

 

[Thepagoda]

I think people are overlooking a much more important aspect of things that ties more into "the war on terrorism" than it does here, but is still important. Racial profiling is a form of persecution and prejudgice. the reason that the proverbial sh!t is hitting the fan is that people feel persecuted. differentially treating, and therefore further alienating people based on their religion or ethnicity is not only morally wrong, it is detrimental to a diverse society and is detrimental to the inalienable rights of the citizens of that society. If you truly cherish and love the democracy that you live in, then you have to recognize the rights of ALL of your citizens, whether they be white, gay, muslim or female. That foundation of human rights, which is what this country is supposed to uphold, cannot support both the freedoms that we take for granted and a sytematic approach that prejudges the members of its society based on their religious prefernece or ethnicity. Remember that the USA was founded because of religous persecution.

Prejudging the citizens of the USA (or foriegners, which becomes a whole different point alltogether) will not increase the security of the USA. Racial profiling leads to inequal application of rights which should be a red flag to any member of a country who's citizens are "created equal" (i.e the USA). Racial Profiling is morally wrong, it is against the very foundations of this country, and it is detrimental to the longevity of our society.

 

[$tinkle]

Originally posted by Thepagoda
Prejudging the citizens of the USA (or foriegners, which becomes a whole different point alltogether) will not increase the security of the USA. Racial profiling leads to inequal application of rights which should be a red flag to any member of a country who's citizens are "created equal" (i.e the USA). Racial Profiling is morally wrong, it is against the very foundations of this country, and it is detrimental to the longevity of our society.

i try to imagine someone in high authority taking this point of view, and enacting it, then al-qaeda getting wise to this policy. Do you not agree that they would not be in any way deterred? As far as Skookum's post of reid & mcveigh, i think that pretty much sums up the US citizens, and reid is a muslim, who would probably fail the arabic litmus test.

what if palestinians were cosmetically distinct from israelis? Do you think they would employ racial profiling?

get my point? just because it's not the solution, doesn't mean it shouldn't be part the solution.

and i acknowledge silver's observation that tactics change to best fit a successful hit. To wit, didja notice that mexican smugglers want upwards of 10X for arabic folks to get in country...and are getting it!

 

[Westy]

The idea in terrorism is hitting soft targets. We can perform deep body cavity searches on everyon in the airport and it would not make a damn bit of difference, after Sept 11 airplanes are not soft targets. Hitting a train in spain was obviously easier. We can increase security on trains. Then they'll blow up a bomb and take out the brooklyn bridge. Then we can search all cars and trucks, then they will start fires in the west burning down thousands of homes. Then we will pave the west. Then they can just start sniping like John Malvo and we will all drive armoured cars and wear bullet proof jackets. It could go on forever. As long as we live in a free society we will present a very target rich environment.

If there are terrorists people will die, get used to it. 1000 times more people die each year from traffic accidents and no one seems worried about that. The best thing we can do is try to get rid of terrorists. Treat the cause not the symptom. IMO harrasing everyone who looks like a terrorist will create more terrorists.

 

[LordOpie]

Originally posted by Westy
The idea in terrorism is

...

terrorist will create more terrorists.

Winner!

 

[$tinkle]

excerpt of column filed today by Walid Phares, Professor of Middle East studies

Back in the 8th century A.D., Spain was the first European Christian country to be invaded by the Arab Islamic armies. It was called al-Andalous for seven centuries. The Madrid attacks -- if Jihadist in nature -- are undoubtably grounded in a historical reference. Indeed, over the past two years, al-Qaeda websites and their sisters in jihad have classified Spain in the realm of "Muslim areas conquered by the infidels," reversing the chronology of world events. But in a recent statement by al-Qaeda following the assassination of Spanish intelligence officers in Iraq, the text said, "Spain, once a Muslim country, is now again an aggressor." The political thinking behind the statement is not unknown to the experts in Islamic Fundamentalism. It is not only about Aznar's alliance with the U.S. in as much as it is also an old claim laid over the entire Iberian Peninsula. As in the Yugoslav crisis, history is often cited as a root cause. Al-Qaeda and its masters in Arabia haven't gotten over the change of identity in Spain, and by the same token, Portugal. The founders of global jihad argue that there was another Palestine in Spain, obliterated by the Christians in 1492. They constantly miss to report to their followers that it was first invaded and subdued by the Muslim armies in 715. As in all their "fronts" around the globe, the Jihadist ideologues do not admit the historical order of events. This practice remained the dominant pattern till September 11 in America.

 

[$tinkle]

ok, so i made as ass outta myself w/ the whole ETA = Muslim extremest, but even that effort was bested by none other than the United Nations yesterday

Unanimously adopting resolution 1530 (2004), the Security Council expressed its reinforced determination to combat all forms of terrorism, and condemned today’s attacks in Madrid “perpetrated by the terrorist group ETA”. At least 190 commuters were killed and more than a thousand more wounded after simultaneous bombings targeted rush-hour trains in the Spanish capital.

and the coup de gras

The Council convened at 12:35 p.m. and adjourned at 12:40 p.m.

link

 

[Thepagoda]

building the argument on the foundations that racial profiling may prove to be sucessful in thwarting some attacks overlooks something very important: Freedom. Racial profiling is a form of oppression. It may be effective in deterring a small number of terrorists, but it is not addressing the problem from a point of view that lends to the solution. I think that you may agree that the internment of Japanese citizens during WWII was effective in reducing the number of potential spies, but was incredibly unethical and it compromised the freedom of the people in this country, the free-est country in the world. If the idea of villianizing people based on their religious belief or physical apearance speaks against the freedoms that are supposed to be upheld by such an act.

If humanity is to have no part in the argument, why not examine the dynamics of what happens over the long term when people are judged for their religious or choices or their heritage. During the 1930s the Germans were coerced into believing that the jews were the root of their problems. over the next decade the conditions devloped from very much what is being proposed (differential treatment of individuals based solely on their religious beliefs) into the Holocaust. Now obviously this is an extreme case, but it shows the potential downfall of the implementation of schemes like racial profiling. History is full of examples where racial or religious prejudgices have caused conflicts ranging from genocide and virtual extermination (ex's: Rwanda, US's manifest destiny) to civil rights (ex: US 1960s).

Racial profiling is not the solution and it cannot be part of the solution because is is part of the problem.

As Mr. Westy pointed out, you can take all the precautions that you want to reinforce your security to reduce the effects of terrorism until you realize that to be totally safe you're locked in a bunker so that the freedom you hold so dear is nothing but a memory. Or, alternatively you could accept the fact the the risk of dying as a result of terror attack is much lower than that of getting killed in an automobile accident. So you do what you do anyway: accept the risk and move on. Terrorism is only effective if it strikes fear in people's hearts, but if you stop and examine the numbers, the amount of stress placed on terrorism is vastly disproportionate to the actual threat. Graphic events such as the bombing of the train is Madrid and 911 inflate the percived level of terrorist threat. Look at how many people have died since the year 2000 in terror related incidents and, say, alcohol related deaths.

I'm flying into Madrid next week, and people keep asking me if I'm scared. people asked the same thing when I went to Bali last year. I have a much higher risk of getting killed driving to the airport than I do from getting bombed. I'm looking forward to being in Spain.

 

[LordOpie]

Originally posted by $tinkle
ok, so i made as ass outta myself w/ the whole ETA = Muslim extremest,

nah, others and myself also thought the same thing.

What I don't understand is why Spain and France just don't give the Basques the land they want?



Yes, I'm being an ass since this same question was asked of tiny Israel of the "Palestinians".