[BurlyShirley]

Was talking with a friend the other night, and on the topic of religion, he went off on a rant about how prayer is a completely selfish act (may or may not be his original idea of course). Never thought of it in these terms before, but his logic seemed sound.


Since prayer has been proven to be ineffective and all, http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12082681/ ... all it really serves to do is help the person doing the praying to feel better about themselves without actually doing anything that requires any effort. I mean, if you really want to help a person out, you should get off your ass and do that the way I see it.

 

[stevew]

why should you honestly give a flying fvck.

 

[BurlyShirley]

why should you honestly give a flying fvck.

It's what I do. I give "flying fvcks" about the opinions/ideologies of others in an effort to refine my own paradigms. Likewise, I enjoy sharing my thoughts with others in hopes they are doing the same.

 

[stevew]

im shocked....i thought you world revolved around jay cutler and the breeding habits of fish.

mental note made.

 

[BurlyShirley]

im shocked....i thought you world revolved around jay cutler and the breeding habits of fish.

mental note made.

You really are bringing a lot to this discussion. Thanks so much for participating.

 

[kidwoo]

all it really serves to do is help the person doing the praying to feel better about themselves

That pretty much applies to ANY human action though.

There literally is no such thing as an unselfish act. It's impossible.

 

[BurlyShirley]

That pretty much applies to ANY human action though.

There literally is no such thing as an unselfish act. It's impossible.

The point isn't that it's wrong to feel pleasure from helping others. The point is that you "earn" that feeling dishonestly when you only pray and don't actually do anything.

 

[kidwoo]

The point isn't that it's wrong to feel pleasure from helping others. The point is that you "earn" that feeling dishonestly when you only pray and don't actually do anything.

How the fvck else you supposed to get into heaven while sitting on your ass?

On a side note, I do get a kick out of telling my friends that I prayed for them last night. When they ask what for, I just say "you'll see" and give them that glowing eyeball, 'I know something special' look.

That shlt cracks me up.

 

[MMike]

How the fvck else you supposed to get into heaven while sitting on your ass?

On a side note, I do get a kick out of telling my friends that I prayed for them last night. When they ask what for, I just say "you'll see" and give them that glowing eyeball, 'I know something special' look.

That shlt cracks me up.

Is that better than "I was thinking about you while I was jerking off last night"?

 

[stevew]

You really are bringing a lot to this discussion. Thanks so much for participating.

well...it's prayer...there really isn't much to bring to it.

 

[BurlyShirley]

well...it's prayer...there really isn't much to bring to it.

Sure there is. There's some questions about prayer that I've never quite gotten an answer to.

For instance, is god some kind of democracy or just hard of hearing?

I ask this because, Im constantly being asked to pray for this or pray for that. People always want you to jump on the bandwagon to pray for some cause. Entire congregations are asked to pray together.... why is this? Does god only answer prayers if enough people ask him for something? Is it like a petition? Or do you have to get all they prayers going at once to be loud enough to get his attention? Does this mean it's useless to pray on my own?

Also, if god is infallible, who the f*** do people think they are asking him to change his plans? If he does something, it's for a reason, right? Or is he pretty wishy-washy on these things and can be convinced to alter the destiny of the world?

 

[Silver]

Sure there is. There's some questions about prayer that I've never quite gotten an answer to.

For instance, is god some kind of democracy or just hard of hearing?

I ask this because, Im constantly being asked to pray for this or pray for that. People always want you to jump on the bandwagon to pray for some cause. Entire congregations are asked to pray together.... why is this? Does god only answer prayers if enough people ask him for something? Is it like a petition? Or do you have to get all they prayers going at once to be loud enough to get his attention? Does this mean it's useless to pray on my own?

Also, if god is infallible, who the f*** do people think they are asking him to change his plans? If he does something, it's for a reason, right? Or is he pretty wishy-washy on these things and can be convinced to alter the destiny of the world?

It's religion. Just make up some BS answers. That's all the theologian does, and he gets paid for it.

 

[stevew]

Sure there is. There's some questions about prayer that I've never quite gotten an answer to.

For instance, is god some kind of democracy or just hard of hearing?

I ask this because, Im constantly being asked to pray for this or pray for that. People always want you to jump on the bandwagon to pray for some cause. Entire congregations are asked to pray together.... why is this? Does god only answer prayers if enough people ask him for something? Is it like a petition? Or do you have to get all they prayers going at once to be loud enough to get his attention? Does this mean it's useless to pray on my own?

Also, if god is infallible, who the f*** do people think they are asking him to change his plans? If he does something, it's for a reason, right? Or is he pretty wishy-washy on these things and can be convinced to alter the destiny of the world?

after growing up going to church i've just learned to ignore it.

my parents say they pray for me....fine...whatever floats your boat.

people want to tell me sh*t happens for a reason....great, have a nice day.

go sell crazy somewhere else.

 

[kidwoo]

Sure there is. There's some questions about prayer that I've never quite gotten an answer to.

You should pray for those answers.

 

[jimmydean]

I guess it depends on how you pray.

"Thank you lord for everything you've given me..."
VS
"Lord, I really want to get in this girls pants..."

One is giving thanks and gratitude, the other is a selfish act.

 

[AngryMetalsmith]

I thought about this thread this evening.

I was talking to a woman tonight at a meeting and this subject came up. I had just explained to her that I had spent a great deal of time on the path of religion and stated that although I ultimately found this not to be the path for me, I have no desire to dismiss her faith, especially if it is something that helps her be stronger. She made a few comments about the Holly Spirit and what it can do for you. She also complained that she wished others would not " bash on organized religion ".

I had thought that I had made my position on the subject quite clear. I really had no intention of openly disrespecting her faith, yet she seemed somewhat intolerant of my beliefs. At this point she asked me to pray for her to get " this better job " and handed me a piece of paper. When I looked at her with a WTF look on my face, she rearranged her request with euphemisms for God and prayer in the hopes that I would accept her request.

This bugs the crap out of me for two reasons. First, she is expecting me to be respectful of her religion and beliefs yet intolerant of mine. Secondly, her request of prayer was totally self centered and the basis for my problem with many practitioners of organized religion. She was asking me to help her ask her God to fulfill a selfish act in the sense that he would do for her what she could not do for herself.

This troubles me because so many ask God for help or for him to take care of them. It is the attitude that someone else is responsible for my actions. Removing accountability and not being responsible for ones actions is not something that I take lightly. When people say things like " it's God's plan " or " the Lord will provide " I cringe.

So the question of " is prayer a selfish act ? ", I think in some ways it is. The obvious one is the asking for something that benefits the self and not someone else. But the more difficult way is that, if there is no God and we can only rely on ourselves, then our beliefs exist solely within us and do not extend beyond our own capacity. So when someone says that God granted me this wish or took care of us, we are ultimately relying on ourselves and therefore the prayer becomes a selfish act.

The question " do you believe in God ? " almost answers itself. The word " you " points directly at the self. You is also another word for " I " which is singular in nature. I find it very interesting that in the language of the Rastafarians, Patois, the word for we is actually a phrase, " I and I ". But that's another discussion.

 

[JohnE]

Selfish, or delusional...

 

[Silver]

I had thought that I had made my position on the subject quite clear. I really had no intention of openly disrespecting her faith, yet she seemed somewhat intolerant of my beliefs.

Welcome to the world of the non-religious person in America.

When you finally snap and call them retards, they'll look at you like you were an Irish priest that just raped a couple hundred children and forgot to ask Jesus for forgiveness.

Here's the way the thought goes in her head: "Please respect my beliefs, you deluded, evil, baby raping, unbeliever. And by respect, I mean agree with every single one of them, or I'll call you intolerant."

Now, what do you do about this? You have an intolerant person throwing back your own attempted tolerance in your face. The only solution is to just ignore them. Much like a 5 year old who throws a tantrum when he doesn't understand that he can't drink a beer or go on the rollercoaster that he's not tall enough to ride on...you can't reason with her. Just walk away.

 

[BurlyShirley]

I've had people go so far as to outright tell me to my face that everyone, including me has some faith and that I just won't admit it. In the future, I plan to respond in a similarly disrespectful fashion, with my belief that faith is just an irrational, emotional commitment to something you know isn't true.

It's well-known that fear often causes people to make irrational decisions (that's why there are no atheists in foxholes) and fear of a lack of control, mortality, the unknown, etc. is the main basis for religious belief, the way I understand it. I will not succumb to fear, or trade my reason for a false sense of security.

 

[AngryMetalsmith]

I have ignored them and walked away. I generally avoid religious discussions and have done so for twenty plus years. However, I am forced to deal with similar attitudes in order to get what it is that I need from these particular meetings. I have found it to be a huge stumbling block for me.

 

[Silver]

I've had people go so far as to outright tell me to my face that everyone, including me has some faith and that I just won't admit it. In the future, I plan to respond in a similarly disrespectful fashion, with my belief that faith is just an irrational, emotional commitment to something you know isn't true.

It's well-known that fear often causes people to make irrational decisions (that's why there are no atheists in foxholes) and fear of a lack of control, mortality, the unknown, etc. is the main basis for religious belief, the way I understand it. I will not succumb to fear, or trade my reason for a false sense of security.

Pat Tillman is a good response to the atheist/foxhole attack. Besides, as someone pointed out long ago, that isn't an argument against atheism, it's an argument against foxholes.

Just walk, seriously. They aren't interested in engaging you. Unless you derive some perverse pleasure in screwing with them, it's a waste of time.

(Jehovah's Witnesses are my favorite: "Don't you believe that only 144,000 people in all of history are going to heaven? Why the hell would you advertise? Wouldn't it piss you off if an atheist like me makes a deathbed conversion and steals your spot? Would you like a cigarette?")

 

[Silver]

I have ignored them and walked away. I generally avoid religious discussions and have done so for twenty plus years. However, I am forced to deal with similar attitudes in order to get what it is that I need from these particular meetings. I have found it to be a huge stumbling block for me.

12 step meetings?

Find another meeting. It'll be better for you in the long run.

 

[BurlyShirley]

Pat Tillman is a good response to the atheist/foxhole attack. Besides, as someone pointed out long ago, that isn't an argument against atheism, it's an argument against foxholes.

Just walk, seriously. They aren't interested in engaging you. Unless you derive some perverse pleasure in screwing with them, it's a waste of time.

(Jehovah's Witnesses are my favorite: "Don't you believe that only 144,000 people in all of history are going to heaven? Why the hell would you advertise? Wouldn't it piss you off if an atheist like me makes a deathbed conversion and steals your spot? Would you like a cigarette?")

That's kind of my thing if you haven't noticed. :biggrin:

Seriously though, you should take any opportunity you might get to try and teach people to think rationally. "Even if you save just one"

 

[Silver]

That's kind of my thing if you haven't noticed. :biggrin:

Seriously though, you should take any opportunity you might get to try and teach people to think rationally. "Even if you save just one"

In that case, you might want to print out a couple of these:

http://www.normalbobsmith.com/free/flyers/igr.html

I keep a few close to the door. I always ask if I can exchange literature with them...

 

[BurlyShirley]

Nice. I should start delivering those to the churches' mailboxes around here as often as I get crap from them.

I actually got a "prayer rug" in the mail (made out of paper with a pic of jesus on it) with a bunch of testimonials on the back saying "I prayed on this rug, and the next day I got a check for $42,000 in the mail!"

It's hanging up on my fridge right now.

 

[Silver]

Nice. I should start delivering those to the churches' mailboxes around here as often as I get crap from them.

I actually got a "prayer rug" in the mail (made out of paper with a pic of jesus on it) with a bunch of testimonials on the back saying "I prayed on this rug, and the next day I got a check for $42,000 in the mail!"

It's hanging up on my fridge right now.

Do you know which church the prayer rug came from? If you do, got set it up facing east on a Sunday morning, wear a little white hat, and pretend your a Muslim praying to Mecca on it while they file into church...

 

[BurlyShirley]

Do you know which church the prayer rug came from? If you do, got set it up facing east on a Sunday morning, wear a little white hat, and pretend your a Muslim praying to Mecca on it while they file into church...

I'd be crucified.

 

[Silver]

I'd be crucified.

Reminds me of this Bill Hicks bit:

Forgive me!

 

[AngryMetalsmith]

12 step meetings?

Find another meeting. It'll be better for you in the long run.

I don't think that's the solution as it's an major part of the program, the concept of Higher Power, that is. So another meeting probably won't change that.

I hear and read other names for said higher power but mostly it's God. Honestly, I get tripped up by that.

I'm just trying to better myself and live without the crutch of a particular addiction. " I " decided to do this, why do " I " need a higher power to help be a better person ?

 

[Silver]

I don't think that's the solution as it's an major part of the program, the concept of Higher Power, that is. So another meeting probably won't change that.

I hear and read other names for said higher power but mostly it's God. Honestly, I get tripped up by that.

I'm just trying to better myself and live without the crutch of a particular addiction. " I " decided to do this, why do " I " need a higher power to help be a better person ?

Depends where you are. California? You can definitely find a meeting without Jesus Freaks. You might have to do some poking around, depending on where you are, and you might end up with an almost equally annoying New Age vibe, unfortunately. The important thing is not to let people like that woman trip you up.

The higher power thing doesn't have to mean God. Sure, that's the easiest life preserver to grab, but I know a guy in recovery (20+ years now) whose higher power is "The laws of probability."

 

[AngryMetalsmith]

Depends where you are. California? You can definitely find a meeting without Jesus Freaks. You might have to do some poking around, depending on where you are, and you might end up with an almost equally annoying New Age vibe, unfortunately. The important thing is not to let people like that woman trip you up.

The higher power thing doesn't have to mean God. Sure, that's the easiest life preserver to grab, but I know a guy in recovery (20+ years now) whose higher power is "The laws of probability."

I live in the Bible Belt so it's unlikely to find a Jesus free meeting. Although that should not stop me from looking.

"The laws of probability"

Thanks Silver I needed to hear that.

 

[kidwoo]

I don't think that's the solution as it's an major part of the program, the concept of Higher Power, that is. So another meeting probably won't change that.

I hear and read other names for said higher power but mostly it's God. Honestly, I get tripped up by that.

I'm just trying to better myself and live without the crutch of a particular addiction. " I " decided to do this, why do " I " need a higher power to help be a better person ?

Ignore the retart. Everyone there is there for the sole purpose of bettering themselves. And that's why you're there. Stay focused. It's nothing more than a semantic process that's an assistant to a very well defined conclusion. To play the game your higher power can simply be the you that you know can exist and who brought you there, with the hope of walking out the person you wish to be. That's much larger than what this chick can ever hope to have..........she's still not taking responsibility.


In recovery as in life, don't let the dip**** christians distract you. You don't need unicorns and leprechauns to reach your goals.

 

[BurlyShirley]

___________

 

[AngryMetalsmith]

Yes, hammers do fix problems.

 

[ire]

That's much larger than what this chick can ever hope to have..........she's still not taking responsibility.

Thats what turned me off about AA....at some point you have to stand up, take responsibility for actions, and make the decision to change the path you're on. I did it without AA, and I've been sober almost two years

 

[kidwoo]

I did it without AA, and I've been sober almost two years

And I ain't fvcked a chicken in 8.



Nice work.



Brother.