[ChrisRobin]

I know there's always talk of Shimano being slow to adapt in making updates and changes, but anyone know if they're going to update their Saint line?? Specifically their hub width standards: they don't have 157mm.

Ultimately I don't mind if down the road I have to go to a different manufacturer for my rear hub, but my OCD-ness will constantly nag me.

 

[jonKranked]

i had pulled the info on it when xtr was released, saint is the only existing shimano platform that is what i'd consider past due for an update. i suspect that's up high on the list if not next. i remember someone from shimano was saying that their next goal (after the new xtr) was to get the new xtr tech implemented on other tiers (ie XT, maybe saint?) and that this was a higher priority than getting Di2 implemented on the new xtr platform.

 

[MrBaker87]

Maybe I am missing something, but what good would an update do? On dh bikes we don’t need more gears and the derailleur can be limited to a limited amount of gears already (though there is a lack of 7sp dh cassettes from Shimano). The current saint derailleur has clutch. We don’t need the new bolt pattern on the cranks. Brakes really haven’t changed... even with the new XTR really.

What else is there to do? 157mmx12mm? Shimano hubs suck anyway, so who cares? Hardly worth a group update for this. Micro spline Freehubs? Like I said before, 12 speeds are not needed for DH.

Really, as is, the Saint group, while stagnant, is pretty much all it needs to be. Upgradeitis is a real disease, I get it. But it’s treatable.

Now if we were to look at Saint as a more Enduro group , then things might change (beefier derailleur/cranksets than xt, but with wide range, etc).

 

[slyfink]

What else is there to do? 157mmx12mm? Shimano hubs suck anyway, so who cares? Hardly worth a group update for this. Micro spline Freehubs? Like I said before, 12 speeds are not needed for DH.

157x12 with the micro-spline, but with a 7 or 8 speed cluster would allow for wider flange spacing and therefore a stronger/stiffer wheel. Which is rather important now that we are seeing 29r DH wheels...

just a thought.

 

[Jeremy R]

Complains about new standards......

Mad when you don't receive new standards ......

 

[Jm_]

Maybe I am missing something, but what good would an update do? On dh bikes we don’t need more gears and the derailleur can be limited to a limited amount of gears already (though there is a lack of 7sp dh cassettes from Shimano). The current saint derailleur has clutch. We don’t need the new bolt pattern on the cranks. Brakes really haven’t changed... even with the new XTR really.

Don't be ridiculous, there are all sorts of new standards that could be used for your benefit to prevent comparability...

 

[jonKranked]

157x12 with the micro-spline, but with a 7 or 8 speed cluster would allow for wider flange spacing and therefore a stronger/stiffer wheel. Which is rather important now that we are seeing 29r DH wheels...

just a thought.

plus they could put a smaller cog on it w/ microspline.

 

[Jm_]

plus they could put a smaller cog on it w/ microspline.

Saint29

 

[jonKranked]

Saint29

part of me secretly hopes to see di2 saint.

 

[jonKranked]

or Saint Airlines

 

[mykel]

157 is hardly a new standard.
My DH bike from 2013 is 157.
The only difference is that 157 is now being further implemented on non-dh bikes.
My new trialbike is 157 and 68/73 BSA - So many new standards

...and yup Saint is getting a bit long in the tooth not withstanding being 10 odd years late to the DH hub world...

 

[Wuffles]

My OCD would be triggered by any Shimano hub, regardless of how well it matches the group.

Shimano's hubs are not popular for a good reason- there's better options for cheaper, which runs contrary to most stuff Shimano sells.

 

[slimshady]

Anyone defending loose ball bearings over cartridge ones lacks basic understanding of mechanics or wants to sell you a new hub every time a bearing race bites the dust.

 

[Bikael Molton]

I’d actually like to try a loose ball Shimano hub sometime, though I’m not sure how much $ I’d like to spend on the experiment.

Sealed bearings, mega engagement point hubs, and clutch derailleurs sure seem to have a lot of dang drag. my old well-broken-in Hadleys were the longest spinning sealed bearing hubs I ever owned.

Luckily I can get away with just a simple top guide now, but I wonder how much drag a narrow-wide chainring adds?

 

[HAB]

I’d actually like to try a loose ball Shimano hub sometime, though I’m not sure how much $ I’d like to spend on the experiment.

Sealed bearings, mega engagement point hubs, and clutch derailleurs sure seem to have a lot of dang drag.

The good ones are reeeeeally smooth.

 

[Flo33]

I’d actually like to try a loose ball Shimano hub sometime, though I’m not sure how much $ I’d like to spend on the experiment.

Sealed bearings, mega engagement point hubs, and clutch derailleurs sure seem to have a lot of dang drag. my old well-broken-in Hadleys were the longest spinning sealed bearing hubs I ever owned.

Luckily I can get away with just a simple top guide now, but I wonder how much drag a narrow-wide chainring adds?

I have a set of Dura Ace hubs that runs the HAB way. These are from the late 90's.

 

[HardtailHack]

Anyone defending loose ball bearings over cartridge ones lacks basic understanding of mechanics or wants to sell you a new hub every time a bearing race bites the dust.

I'd take a loose ball headset with a steel cup over a cartridge type headset, Shimano hub, never ever!

 

[Gary]

I wonder how much drag a narrow-wide chainring adds?

Assuming good chain line it's negligible.
You're getting into the realms of ceramicspeed™ target punter road wattage anxiety twattery even thinking about it.
https://www.ceramicspeed.com/en/sport/shop/pulley-wheels/

 

[ChrisRobin]

In the grand scheme of things, my Shimano Saint hubs have worked 'okay'. It's not as pretty, or as quick engaging as my Pro 4 on my trail bike, but on a downhill bike it's fine. The freehub I think may be weak because under hard pressure It periodically skips, but I do have a spare hub I can cannibalize.

 

[Jm_]

In the grand scheme of things, my Shimano Saint hubs have worked 'okay'. It's not as pretty, or as quick engaging as my Pro 4 on my trail bike, but on a downhill bike it's fine. The freehub I think may be weak because under hard pressure It periodically skips, but I do have a spare hub I can cannibalize.

Which is the main fault of shimano, they make some great stuff, usually very pragmatic in their approach and R&D, but also exceptionally stubborn, to the point of dismissing 1x and trying to hold out with 2x drivetrains, their crappy cassette interface, etc. The freehub is an example of this. Brakes. Etc.

 

[Sandwich]

it might make a difference on a road bike, but i have doubts that cups and cones are going to matter on a DH bike vs tubeless or big wheels or whatever else. They certainly aren't more reliable, and IMO that's the most important thing on a downhill bike you actually ride and don't just post about on the internet.

I do question if there's room for new saint, but shaving weight is always nice, getting rid of low reliability brakes is another high point. Reliability should still be their main focus, with fewer gears and lower maintenance intervals

 

[Happymtb.fr]

Reliability should still be their main focus, with fewer gears and lower maintenance intervals

That and unicorns!

 

[slimshady]

getting rid of low reliability brakes is another high point.

Let's not forget keeping a proper spare parts catalog. Unreliable brakes + inexistent spare parts = migrate to a different brand.

 

[manhattanprjkt83]

maybe they should bring back the dual rotor water cooled system?

 

[manhattanprjkt83]

or di2 Saint Airlines

fixed.

 

[Flo33]

... with Bluetooth.

 

[manhattanprjkt83]

No, shimano can't get XTR to market w/ a mechanical cable. Bluetooth is another dimension to them at this point. (and I'm a huge XTR fan).

 

[manhattanprjkt83]

bluetooth water cooled air actuated brakes anyone? You better believe I'll jump on that D***.

 

[toodles]

What do we want? Reliable Saint brakes.

What are we gonna get? Micro-spline V2.0 (non-compatible with XTR) Cassette. Di2 Shifting. Brakes with a bite point determined by chickens picking at corn whilst high on LSD.

 

[manhattanprjkt83]

XTRAXS

 

[manhattanprjkt83]

ectracsys

 

[johnbryanpeters]

Which is the main fault of shimano, they make some great stuff, usually very pragmatic in their approach and R&D, but also exceptionally stubborn, to the point of dismissing 1x and trying to hold out with 2x drivetrains, their crappy cassette interface, etc. The freehub is an example of this. Brakes. Etc.

In my mind, 2x makes more sense than 1x.

 

[Jm_]

Let's not forget keeping a proper spare parts catalog. Unreliable brakes + inexistent spare parts = migrate to a different brand.

That's the real issue. I don't expect things to last forever and the expectation, whether implied or actual, that you'll just junk your equipment after two seasons is absolutely what's wrong with the industry and much of business in general. Shimano telling us how great their sh*t is while at the same time not providing any spare parts is bullshit. I think it was the Shitmano rep that told me "you should get a few seasons out of them" or something similar, so what if I ride more aggressively or frequently? That admission was basically like asking me to punch him in the face. Or what if I'm like a total asshole and like to get my stuff into top condition before the start of the season to minimize the possibility of a failure during the season?

This is where Shimano gets stubborn and thinks their previous success is reason for their existence and that customers will stick with them. For a long time, there wasn't a good alternative, you could put a SRAM group on there, but there were several inexcusably weak points, like ISIS cranks, or b-tension rings that always cracked and non-carrier cassettes, but these days there is a good alternative. Shimano seems to have not F-ed-up pedals yet, so I still like those, but they are really trying hard to lose aftermarket business IMO these days.

 

[Bikael Molton]

please make brakes that last.

also make a cinch chainring crankset.

tbh, if i can get 2 years out of a Shimano brake set-up, it'd be worth it for me (saint, zee, xt level pricing). Servowave and mineral oil rule.

 

[Jm_]

also make a cinch chainring crankset.

To be fair, I'm sure they are hard at work figuring out how to make a one-piece crank-arm-with-chainring to save 2g while still being heavier than CF that has to be replaced when the ring wears out.

 

[Bikael Molton]

yeah but cinch looks cool. 1piece sucks, carbonz sucks.

I'm sure their direct mount ring will trickle down from xtr soon.

To be fair, I'm sure they are hard at work figuring out how to make a one-piece crank-arm-with-chainring to save 2g while still being heavier than CF that has to be replaced when the ring wears out.

 

[jstuhlman]

please explaing the appeal/benefits of cinch over bolt on? never seen a reason to do it. i dgaf about a few grams. and i seem to hear more compaints about creaking, etc.

 

[Sandwich]

Conch is stupid .Back to bolts for me.

 

[6thElement]

Shimano seems to have not F-ed-up pedals yet,

XTR 980 SPD's like snapping axles. I stopped replacing them and went back to XT.

 

[Jm_]

XTR 980 SPD's like snapping axles. I stopped replacing them and went back to XT.

I skipped that somehow and have a few sets of M9000s, although someone local was selling some used XTs a few years ago for $20 and I jumped at that, stilling running those too. For park days and similar I put some 530s on the bike because that style already weighs more and they work just as well as the XTR trails. Breaking a $30 pedal wouldn't break my heart, but those things are damn hard to break.