[Lumpy_Gravy]

Does it really matter what frame you ride as long as it is half decent? what is important is the fork and its setup. The fork does much more of the work.

When going down a near vertical, rutted slope at 30mph+ all the weight shifts forward onto my arms, yet my arms are not nearly as strong as my legs (if they were I would be doing handstands to get to work) I know my Shivers get a battering and I can feel it through my arms, and why not considering the above?

....yet my legs soak pretty much everything up...they are easily four times the size of my arms and yet all my weight shifts forward away from my legs?

I do not doubt the importance of geommetry for DH i.e. correct body positioning for those fast, steep slopes.... but I cant help but feel the performance of a fork is a hundred times more important than the relative performance of a frame.

In short, does it really matter what frame you ride as long as it is half decent? what is important is the fork and its setup

 

[Toshi]

with a well balanced setup the fork doesn't do all of the work by definition

 

[MikeD]

Does not your ass need kicking?

-Butthead

(nothing personal, just can't resist an opportunity for B&B. And I guess you sort of have a point, considering that lots of us ride hardtails...personally, I'd rather have good geometry than good rear suspension, and I'd rather have no rear suspension at all than bad rear suspension.)

 

[profro]

I do not doubt the importance of geommetry for DH i.e. correct body positioning for those fast, steep slopes....

For those reasons I say the frame is more important than the fork. Put me on a Yeti DH9 with a Slider + and I'm still a better rider than a DW Piranha with a Shiver.

 

[Zark]

For those reasons I say the frame is more important than the fork. Put me on a Yeti DH9 with a Slider + and I'm still a better rider than a DW Piranha with a Shiver.

Yup, got to agree. Pedaling too, if you have an awesome fork on a decent frame with bad pedaling quality, kiss your ass goodbye. I'll be passing you on the right

If this theory were true, you'd see a lot less Boxxers on the circuit :devil:
<dons flamesuit and hides> Just kidding, I feel like jm possesed me for a second there

 

[Knuckleslammer]

It's all about the seat man. The seat. :eviltongu

 

[mandown]

the quote is:

"does not your scrotum need kicking"

and it was said by beavis in the dream sequence.

 

[MikeD]

the quote is:

"does not your scrotum need kicking"

and it was said by beavis in the dream sequence.

Ack, you are right. I need some sleep.

 

[mandown]

"...if you are rooted in the tao, the force of the earth will support you" :dancing:

 

[zedro]

arent our feet more important than our hands?

 

[Tully]

For the most part, I think that the exact importance of the fork relative to the frame depends on your riding style and the terrain you ride, although I think they are generally more or less equally important.

 

[Tully]

However, I do think that geometry is typically more important than suspension performance, although it's nice when both are well-engineered.

 

[ChrisRobin]

Hmmm...I give it 50/50...you can't go wrong with that!

I can always feel when one end of the suspension feels "off" and is holding back the other.

 

[OGRipper]

The best riders can rip it up on just about anything, so the answer is no, the frame isn't really all that important in the greater scheme of things. Example: see the pic of sanjay.

But you're asking a bunch of techno-geeky bike freaks who care enough to check out this forum and in some cases actually respond, many of which (me included) will spend countless hours debating the merits of one design over another in the hope of squeezing a little more performance (or just joy) out of our bikes.

So yeah, the frame matters. But if you can't tell the difference just go ride and have a blast.

 

[Fulton]

the only thing thing that matters in this world are cinnamon rolls. mmmmmmmmm, cinnamon rolls are hella good

 

[MikeD]

arent our feet more important than our hands?

Not until I can whack off with my toes...

 

[Jm_]

I think the fork is way more important. I can (and have) suck up small trees with my rear end when the suspension doesn't "work" or work properly. I can simply suck up some pretty big impacts with my body because I have momentum and my front end (fork) is already over the obstacle. I'd rather have this setup than a crappy fork and a good rear end. I feel that is the situation that you'll never really be able to get out of, because it limits your ability in so many ways. I don't think that a "perfect fork" mated to a crap frame is not some kind of perfect situation obviously, but untill your hands and body have "taken a pounding" on a relatively nice bike with a boxxer, boxxer race, or a Jr T"...well it really puts things in perspective. I simply couldn't go faster than a certain speed without me totally loosing control, because of the fork. The threshold for the rear end seems much higher though, because it simply "follows". In a perfect world, both would be equally great.

 

[zedro]

Not until I can whack off with my toes...

pffft....amateur...

 

[thaflyinfatman]

I don't think that a "perfect fork" mated to a crap frame is not some kind of perfect situation obviously, but untill your hands and body have "taken a pounding" on a relatively nice bike with a boxxer, boxxer race, or a Jr T"...well it really puts things in perspective. I simply couldn't go faster than a certain speed without me totally loosing control, because of the fork.

Honestly I think you're full of crap. Boxxers and Jr T's don't have the best damping, but if they're holding you back that much, then you have psychological issues to deal with. There are HEAPS of fast riders (who I know or know of) who ride Jr T's, Boxxers and yes even the dreaded Boxxer Race, and don't have any issues with control. I've owned Shivers, a Super T, and a Boxxer team, and ya know what? Much the same. Different feels, but I go faster now on the Boxxer than I did on the other two (due to experience, not the fork) so clearly it's not holding me back (not that I'm fast, but I'm not a beginner either), and it doesn't cause me to spontaneously loose control and explode/run into solid immovable objects/die/jump on the interweb and bitch about it.

 

[manhattanprjkt83]

It's all about the seat man. The seat. :eviltongu

pfffffffffffffffffffffthahhaha dude you always have some good coments

 

[DH Dad]

I'd have to say that the frame geometry is the most important, followed by the fork then the frame suspension. But I ride completely in the Northeast, and I'm only a Sport racer, and other than the Mount Snow Race courses I don't pedal my DH bike all that much.

As long as the frame isn't too big for me and has enough suspension to handle my lack of skill plus feels balance geometry wise I don't care too much how well it pedals. The fork on the other hand I pay a lot of attention to as far as tuning. Rebound needs to be right, it cannot spike (cheap Damping found in a Jr T or old Monster doesn't work for me), it should not bottom harshly yet not be so progressive that I only get 75% of it's travel during 95% of the conditions I ride in. It needs to track well, in my experience, at speed the rear end will follow the front in a lot of situations.

I rode a terribly designed Gary Fisher Joshua for a couple of years and the whole thing sucked. The last year I had it I put a 4" Jr T on it and it became an acceptible Downhill ride for the times (late 90's DH wasn't quite what it is today). That being said, I've now got a '04 Turner DHR which has great pedalling qualities although I bought it more for it's geometry/balanced feel than the suspension performance. I still concern myself with the set-up/performance of my DH fork and simply leave the rear alone. Never turned any of those knobs on the Romic in the back.

 

[zedro]

Honestly I think you're full of crap blah blah blah.....

maybe he means 'holding back' as in 'i cannot continue riding fast because my wrists are being shattered on every bump'....

 

[CreeP]

the only thing thing that matters in this world are cinnamon rolls. mmmmmmmmm, cinnamon rolls are hella good

hella





oh and ya, geometry first! as far as suspension, i can't bloody stand 90% of what's out there, front or rear. If you're having problems dealing with bumps in the front then get your weight back you arse. Do like marshall and manual those rock gardens.

 

[thaflyinfatman]

maybe he means 'holding back' as in 'i cannot continue riding fast because my wrists are being shattered on every bump'....

No exaggeration there at all...

 

[binary visions]

maybe he means 'holding back' as in 'i cannot continue riding fast because my wrists are being shattered on every bump'....

Then he needs to learn to ride lighter on his bike so that his fork isn't coming into contact with things that generate wrist-shattering force.

Jr. T's, Boxxer Race's, they're fine budget forks, they just can't be used by the pick-a-line-and-plow-through crowd. I'm not saying that cartridge damper forks aren't better, or that they make up for lack of skills (though they do help), but let's be honest here: there are LOTS of people running "spiking" ported damper forks, whether they are single or double crowns. If they were as awful as Jm makes them out to be, they'd be about as popular as RST forks.

 

[Jm_]

Then he needs to learn to ride lighter on his bike so that his fork isn't coming into contact with things that generate wrist-shattering force.

Jr. T's, Boxxer Race's, they're fine budget forks, they just can't be used by the pick-a-line-and-plow-through crowd. .

That's cute and all, untill you ride in palces where there is no "smooth line"....

 

[Lumpy_Gravy]

I'm with Jm there, there are sections where its just so rutted and steep that line choice or any other strategy goes out the window. If you want to go faster you have no choice...... your forks and arms need to work harder to absorb the increasingly harder impacts.

 

[Jm_]

I'm with Jm there, there are sections where its just so rutted and steep that line choice or any other strategy goes out the window. If you want to go faster you have no choice...... your forks and arms need to work harder to absorb the increasingly harder impacts.

Yeah, i think these people seriously need to ride faster if they can't find the limit of a Jr T.

 

[binary visions]

Yeah, i think these people seriously need to ride faster if they can't find the limit of a Jr T.

Oh please . Look at where the price point of the Jr. T or Boxxers are. We're not talking about pro downhillers buying these. An average guy who trail rides during the week and takes his bike to a ski mountain once or twice a month doesn't "seriously need to ride faster", he just needs to have fun.

No need to be a snob here. I know you're super-wicked-uber-fast and can't deal with the limits imposed upon you by the most popular fork on the planet but not everyone is in it to try and beat Cedric Gracia's time down the mountain.

My point here is that they serve a very useful purpose, and though they're not the best suspension in the world, they can be used successfully in all situations that a cartridge damper fork is used in. If you can't deal with the spiking, fine, but that doesn't mean they belong in the trash bin.

 

[narlus]

having owned and used a jr t ('01), super t ('01) and boxxer ('02), i'd say that the boxxer blows both of the M forks out of the water. i agree about the jr T getting v. harsh feeling on fast choppy stuff, but the boxxer sucks it up just fine, and feels way more plush than the super T (even after changing the springs to the light white ones).

i'm toying w/ the idea of an 888 at some point to replace my slightly bent fork, but for the meantime it's doing the job just fine.

 

[Jm_]

If you can't deal with the spiking, fine, but that doesn't mean they belong in the trash bin.

True, there's a sucker born every minute.

 

[binary visions]

True, there's a sucker born every minute.

Yep, all those poor suckers getting reliable Marzocchi performance for a much lower cost... DAMN YOU MARZOCCHI!

 

[Lumpy_Gravy]

I'm not saying they are bad forks at all, just that given the amount of work the fork does, it is my opinion that the most effective upgrade to be made in terms of performance is on the fork....not the frame or anything else.

The reason I started all this was cos I saw a picture of DHS mono with a junior T. Which to me seemed not the most sensible buy, I would buy the best value fork my money could get then buy the frame with whats left, not the other way round

p.s. theres no point bringing cedric intot he argument, he could beat me on a fully rigid frame /fork anyday

 

[binary visions]

I'm not saying they are bad forks at all, just that given the amount of work the fork does, it is my opinion that the most effective upgrade to be made in terms of performance is on the fork....not the frame or anything else.

The reason I started all this was cos I saw a picture of DHS mono with a junior T. Which to me seemed not the most sensible buy, I would buy the best value fork my money could get then buy the frame with whats left, not the other way round

p.s. theres no point bringing cedric intot he argument, he could beat me on a fully rigid frame /fork anyday

Okay, well don't get me wrong, I'm not disagreeing that there are a lot better performing forks on the market. Just stating that just because your fork isn't a high end cartridge damper doesn't mean it's not entirely rideable.

Cedric wasn't part of the argument, my statement would have carried the same meaning if I said "get down the mountain as fast as possible". Sometimes people lose sight of just how tiny a cross section of the riding community is captured in a forum like this. Most people don't need to get down as fast as possible, they just want to have as much fun as possible on the way. A Jr. T is a very cost effective way to do this without having to deal with lots of maintenance issues.

And I agree that dropping all of your money on a frame and throwing a cheap fork on there is stupid.

 

[RaID]

Okay, well don't get me wrong, I'm not disagreeing that there are a lot better performing forks on the market. Just stating that just because your fork isn't a high end cartridge damper doesn't mean it's not entirely rideable.

Cedric wasn't part of the argument, my statement would have carried the same meaning if I said "get down the mountain as fast as possible". Sometimes people lose sight of just how tiny a cross section of the riding community is captured in a forum like this. Most people don't need to get down as fast as possible, they just want to have as much fun as possible on the way. A Jr. T is a very cost effective way to do this without having to deal with lots of maintenance issues.

And I agree that dropping all of your money on a frame and throwing a cheap fork on there is stupid.

I couldnt have said it better myself
totally agree with you Binary

 

[CreeP]

I'm not saying they are bad forks at all, just that given the amount of work the fork does, it is my opinion that the most effective upgrade to be made in terms of performance is on the fork....not the frame or anything else.

sure, upgrade yes. but overall performance hinges on the frame, well if you turn or jump at all.

or you could get the best value frame for your riding style and buy the best fork you can with what's left and upgrade if you feel it holds you back.

but what do I know, i'm a hardtail guy.