[Brian HCM#1]

Well the Pope just pasted on and this has made me wonder if there really IS a God. The Pope is the most religious Christian on the face of the planet, but on the flip side his health has been very poor especially the last few years. IF there was really a God, wouldn't he look out for someone of his stature? I realize everyone dies, but the suffering this poor man had to endure over the last several years is amazing. If there was truly a God, why couldn't it be as peaceful as living a long healthy life going to bed and never waking up again. I just don't think it's fair that a man of his religious level should have had to suffer like he did.

 

[Andyman_1970]

Considering what the Bible says Jesus went through in His life (ridicule and put downs), not to mention His arrest and crucifixion (sp?) John Paul got off pretty easy.

 

[El Jefe]

Yes, God lives next door to Santa Claus.

 

[Brian HCM#1]

But why would Jesus want to see someone else suffer, thats what doesn't make since. It's like growing up in poverty and saying when I get married there is no way on this earth I will let my child suffer like I had to, and then doing just that. Giving your child the better life than you had.

 

[Brian HCM#1]

Yes, God lives next door to Santa Claus.

I thought that was the Easter Bunny, or was that the Great Pumpkin.

Actually I'm being seriouse here....................for once.

 

[Brian HCM#1]

Considering what the Bible says Jesus went through in His life (ridicule and put downs), not to mention His arrest and crucifixion (sp?) John Paul got off pretty easy.

You can also look at it this way, Jesus may have been a complete wacko, and thats why the ridicule and put downs. If someone today said they were the real Jesus they would be shipped off to the loony bin. Look at all the cult leaders, like Rev Jim Jones. Could Jesus have been like him? Its possible.

 

[$tinkle]

But why would Jesus want to see someone else suffer, thats what doesn't make since. It's like growing up in poverty and saying when I get married there is no way on this earth I will let my child suffer like I had to, and then doing just that. Giving your child the better life than you had.

suffering is merely part of the whole enchilada: the crucible from which we may choose to be strengthened

imagine if you will, being comforted when it's not needed, being richly blessed when you are not in want, being forgiven when you aren't aware of your transgressions.

imagine what's it like to be paris hilton

 

[Jr_Bullit]

Isn't the Pope - who is essentially just a man who has proven himself worth - considered to be a representative of God here on earth? If that is the case, then suffering of sorts would seem to be a part of the job.

Or something, physical suffering is part of the human story, religion inserts itself in such a way to say that if you have "faith" you will be able to look past your pains and know you suffer them only temporarily while here on earth. John Paul II was an example for all of us of how to be faithful through excrutiating pain, and how to represent his religion well.

 

[El Jefe]

I thought that was the Easter Bunny, or was that the Great Pumpkin.

Actually I'm being seriouse here....................for once.

So am I. He's a wonderful figment of people's imagination; an explanation for the unknown conjured to create a sense of peace and order with the world.

 

[N8 v2.0]

suffering is merely part of the whole enchilada: the crucible from which we may choose to be strengthened

imagine if you will, being comforted when it's not needed, being richly blessed when you are not in want, being forgiven when you aren't aware of your transgressions.

imagine what's it like to be paris hilton

BBBWWWAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAA!!!!

 

[Andyman_1970]

You can also look at it this way, Jesus may have been a complete wacko, and thats why the ridicule and put downs. If someone today said they were the real Jesus they would be shipped off to the loony bin. Look at all the cult leaders, like Rev Jim Jones. Could Jesus have been like him? Its possible.

Actually if you read the Scriptures you’ll find that He was ridiculed and put down because of His questionable parentage – He was alluded to being a mamzier which in the Hebrew is bastard x100 and is a HUGE insult to a Jew (who concern themselves with bloodline). He was also ridiculed because He questioned the religious establishment and their ways.

Actually the Jews, who don’t believe He was the Messiah (and thus have no “agenda” in making Jesus “look good”) believe and have ancient Text’s that document that believed that He was a great rabbi, one of the greatest of the 1st century. So to allude that His contemporaries would have considered Him a “looney” is to demonstrate one’s ignorance of the subject at hand.

 

[Andyman_1970]

Isn't the Pope - who is essentially just a man who has proven himself worth - considered to be a representative of God here on earth? If that is the case, then suffering of sorts would seem to be a part of the job.

Or something, physical suffering is part of the human story, religion inserts itself in such a way to say that if you have "faith" you will be able to look past your pains and know you suffer them only temporarily while here on earth. John Paul II was an example for all of us of how to be faithful through excrutiating pain, and how to represent his religion well.

Very well said JrB, very insightful.................

 

[kinghami3]

This is going to be kind of a sermon, but this is what you get when a theology major is posting . Having the pope as a representative of God is a purely Catholic (and kind of an Anglican) view. In the protestant view, all are equal in God's eyes. Catholics also believe that we are saved through both faith and works, while protestants believe we are saved through faith alone. Those are the two biggest theological differences between Catholics and Protestants. However, there are some points that both believe in, starting with the fact that God loves us and wants us to love Him, but we can't unless He gives us the choice. We brought suffering and corruption on ourselves when we chose sin over God (Adam and Eve story). Jesus, or God incarnate (in human form), died as the perfect sacrifice for our sins, so that those who believe in Him and His sacrifice may be saved. To those who believe this it gives hope. I believe that it was his belief in Jesus Christ that gave Pope John Paul II hope and the strength to carry on.

 

[Skookum]

Life can be viewed as a gift and definately a unique experience. A life can be measured and/or perhaps appreciated with extremes both positive and negative, these experiences happen to everyone within a lifetime. Part of spirituality is finding a reason and adjusting to these happenings or lessons. Whether you believe in a Creator or not, the decisions on what you do with whatever happens to you is your volition.
So i ask you, is this just all about what you want your GOD to do for you?
i'm not a big believer in providence, although the design and complexities of life would have anyone scratching their head as to whether or not we progress thru time in chaos or design or a mix of both. But that's an unknown that can cook your brain until smoke pours out your ears.
Jr. B has said it best, that if you follow providence it's all part of the plan then the Pope goes to rest in Heaven and if the church votes him into sainthood God give him a cel phone to communicate with catholics.
But even if you don't buy into any of this, you're argument of suffering is all relative. If there was no pain there would be no pleasure, life would be pretty boring and pointless.

 

[Andyman_1970]

So i ask you, is this just all about what you want your GOD to do for you?

Which is what sadly a lot Christians boil God down to, a cosmic vending machine that is obliged to fulfill every need and want based on the recitation of some words and positive thinking.

 

[Just Lookin'...]

I don't think God 'busies' Himself with the mundane details of life, like, say, health, pain, death. God is about Faith, Soul, Good vs. Evil. He leaves the crap to us.

If you think I'm being a smartass - i'm not. If you follow the tenets of the Christian (and the other Western religions, depending on how deep you want this to go) God gave Man the choice of free will and pays very close attention to that. We choose to be Good or Bad, Love or Reject, Hate and Fear. It is up to us to use our Faith - if we have one - to lead US to do acts of Good, to alleviate suffering, bring health to sick, comfort to the dying, food to the hungry.

But you'll notice, all that has ever been Good or Bad was done by Man. Sorry, boys, but Earthquakes and Tsunami's are just side-effects of living on a planet with a 'live' core.

It's nothing to do with God passing along a message. He's already told us all we need to know. It's up to the individual to act on that knowledge and make their Choice.

At least, that's what i got out of Seminary School in Quebec all those years ago.

 

[kinghami3]

Life can be viewed as a gift and definately a unique experience. A life can be measured and/or perhaps appreciated with extremes both positive and negative, these experiences happen to everyone within a lifetime. Part of spirituality is finding a reason and adjusting to these happenings or lessons. Whether you believe in a Creator or not, the decisions on what you do with whatever happens to you is your volition.
So i ask you, is this just all about what you want your GOD to do for you?
i'm not a big believer in providence, although the design and complexities of life would have anyone scratching their head as to whether or not we progress thru time in chaos or design or a mix of both. But that's an unknown that can cook your brain until smoke pours out your ears.
Jr. B has said it best, that if you follow providence it's all part of the plan then the Pope goes to rest in Heaven and if the church votes him into sainthood God give him a cel phone to communicate with catholics.
But even if you don't buy into any of this, you're argument of suffering is all relative. If there was no pain there would be no pleasure, life would be pretty boring and pointless.

You're saying that life is a gift, but a gift from whom? Any spirituality at all suggests that there is some higher being that you owe your existence to, whether you know it or not. It's not about what God can do for us; we already owe our existence to God. It's about what God wants us to do for Him in return, which is love Him like He loves us. I don't know how pain and pleasure would really make a difference. It's true that pleasure cannot exist without pain, but nowhere does it say that there is no pain in heaven. God feels rejection all the time. The promise of heaven is eternal life in the presence of love, not an absence of pain. Also, once of the major problems with the Catholic Church is that they believe that they can force spiritual issues such as indulgences or sainthood, which they cannot.

 

[Silver]

So am I. He's a wonderful figment of people's imagination; an explanation for the unknown conjured to create a sense of peace and order with the world.

Not always. He frequently travels around as a horrible figment of people's imaginations so that they can feel good about killing/raping/enslaving/etc. people with a different imaginary friend.

 

[mack]

Yes, God lives next door to Santa Claus.

Yup.



ive never understood how people can believe in God.

 

[Jr_Bullit]

Not always. He frequently travels around as a horrible figment of people's imaginations so that they can feel good about killing/raping/enslaving/etc. people with a different imaginary friend.

Wow - bitterness....

perhaps what you describe is religion and the funny mask "god" wears within such strict rules and tenets?

Why can't god be something bigger, more open, more grand, more maleable than something merely human like?

Reading this thread is like a slap in the face of cold water - once again I find myself wondering about man, and why we as a race continue to try and define something that is a feeling, a knowledge sure as time, but so much greater and beyond our comprehension?

Why gain your belief in god from what others believe? Why not formulate your own opinion after undergoing a massive struggle and facing the world after conquering it and say, this is beautiful, amazing, this feeling of life that I have, the cause of this feeling, whatever it is, this is my god.

Sometimes I wonder - do people get so caught up in the minutiae of the details of rules, tenets, laws, religion, that they forget how to feel something that is so innate, so natural, so very human that you should know it without the brow beating by another human?

Perhaps we should go back to the day when men and women underwent a ritual challenge in order to be recognized as a member of the societies of humans...when you recognize in yourself all the teachings of your life.

 

[LordOpie]

"Dear God"
, hope you got the letter, and...
I pray you can make it better down here.
I don't mean a big reduction in the price of beer
but all the people that you made in your image, see
them starving on their feet 'cause they don't get
enough to eat from God, I can't believe in you

Dear God, sorry to disturb you, but... I feel that I should be heard
loud and clear. We all need a big reduction in amount of tears
and all the people that you made in your image, see them fighting
in the street 'cause they can't make opinions meet about God,
I can't believe in you


http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/xtc/deargod.html

 

[Silver]

Wow - bitterness....

perhaps what you describe is religion and the funny mask "god" wears within such strict rules and tenets?

Why can't god be something bigger, more open, more grand, more maleable than something merely human like?

Not bitterness. That would be like being bitter at the Easter Bunny because I got a milk chocolate rabbit instead of the dark chocolate that I prefer.

Now, if you ask about me being bitter about people who crusade through life trying to get me to believe in the Easter Bunny, that's a different story, I guess. Also, keep in mind that religion and God (I know, some Buddists don't believe in gods, or so I hear, but that doesn't really apply here) are pretty much tied together. If we didn't have God, we wouldn't have religion either.

If God was bigger, more open, etc...than he wouldn't be God anymore, would he?

 

[LordOpie]

If God was bigger, more open, etc...than he wouldn't be God anymore, would he?

nope, he'd be Harvey Fierstein.

 

[Damn True]

JPII taught people as much in his death as he ever did through his life.

 

[Ciaran]

"Dear God"
, hope you got the letter, and...
I pray you can make it better down here.
I don't mean a big reduction in the price of beer
but all the people that you made in your image, see
them starving on their feet 'cause they don't get
enough to eat from God, I can't believe in you

Dear God, sorry to disturb you, but... I feel that I should be heard
loud and clear. We all need a big reduction in amount of tears
and all the people that you made in your image, see them fighting
in the street 'cause they can't make opinions meet about God,
I can't believe in you
http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/xtc/deargod.html

I hate that song. Know why? The same reason we all get mad when some guy sues the ski resort for hurting himself while riding. It's a lack of personal responsibility. You want a better world, then get off your butt and make it better... after all it was us humans that made it so bad in the first place.

Sorry to sound bitter, but that song has always bugged me.

 

[LordOpie]

I hate that song. Know why? The same reason we all get mad when some guy sues the ski resort for hurting himself while riding. It's a lack of personal responsibility. You want a better world, then get off your butt and make it better... after all it was us humans that made it so bad in the first place.

Sorry to sound bitter, but that song has always bugged me.

screw you! XTC is Heaven and Andy Partridge is my GOD!



But I am a big XTC fan. I wish Andy would take his medicine so he could tour.

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

of course god exists!!, he even has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!

But He loves you. He loves you very much.... and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money!

And he likes to see us suffer too. its his joy.. if you were god.. wouldnt you like to pluck the limbs of an ant??
well, in the very same way god is with us.. he likes to give you.. to give you a taste of happiness.. to then take it all away and see you cry.. just for the kicks... because you know.. you cant miss what you never had.. thats why God always gives you chances to have!!!

and he is also a bit self-conscious.. so we gotta pray to him and call him all-powerful and all-everything and give up our lives to him so he feels better... you know... we rub his back, he rubs ours...

 

[BMXman]

Ha. Alexis....you make some very good points...it makes one sit back and reflect a bit. I personally think the idea of god has to be an act of faith...Since there is no concrete proof...one just has to have faith.....D

 

[TheInedibleHulk]

Ack- "If God is so great, why he need us to worship him?.. Ack just saying..."
Homer- "Well you see, God is great, but he's also verrry insecure..."

From my favorite Simpsons episode

Lisa-"Are you licking toads dad?"
Homer-"Im not not licking toads..."

 

[Damn True]

If someone who believes in God is wrong about God, no big deal.
If someone who dosen't believe in God is wrong.......

 

[Jamsoul]

Hmmm religion is the gateway to psychosis. Religion has actually fooled some of you into thinking that there is a God.

 

[fluff]

If someone who believes in God is wrong about God, no big deal.
If someone who dosen't believe in God is wrong.......

Or, depending upon what actions you take resultant upon your beliefs:


If someone who does not believe in God is wrong about God, no big deal.
If someone who does believe in God is wrong...

 

[Jr_Bullit]

Not bitterness. That would be like being bitter at the Easter Bunny because I got a milk chocolate rabbit instead of the dark chocolate that I prefer.

Now, if you ask about me being bitter about people who crusade through life trying to get me to believe in the Easter Bunny, that's a different story, I guess. Also, keep in mind that religion and God (I know, some Buddists don't believe in gods, or so I hear, but that doesn't really apply here) are pretty much tied together. If we didn't have God, we wouldn't have religion either.

If God was bigger, more open, etc...than he wouldn't be God anymore, would he?

God is just a name we give to something we don't understand. Buddhists recognize this fact and don't worry about names, just appreciation and focus...

 

[Andyman_1970]

Why can't god be something bigger, more open, more grand, ...............

He is, and I think this is the problem. Modern Christianity has boiled God down to this set of lectures in a systematic theology course...........are you kidding me. The God of the Bible is huge and vast and awesome, but we in our modern analytical minds have defined Him and boiled Him down to the point that we can get Him in our "box" of understanding.

This is the same God who's Name is as close as the breathing of a new born baby (which is what the rabbi's thought YHWH was, the sound of breathing) and the same God that is so huge and created the universe. That's why the name Joel has such huge theological significance - in the Hebrew Ya'el (Joel) means Yahwaeh Elohim - Yahwaeh the God who's Name is as close as the breathing of a new born, and Elohim the God who created massive things like mountains and the universe - so the rabbi's would discuss for days on end "Is Ya El?"

Anyway, sorry for the rabbi trail, short version is I think God no longer fits in modern Christianity, it's gotten to narrow and defined and forgotten that Ya is El.

 

[Jr_Bullit]

He is, and I think this is the problem. Modern Christianity has boiled God down to this set of lectures in a systematic theology course...........are you kidding me. The God of the Bible is huge and vast and awesome, but we in our modern analytical minds have defined Him and boiled Him down to the point that we can get Him in our "box" of understanding.

This is the same God who's Name is as close as the breathing of a new born baby (which is what the rabbi's thought YHWH was, the sound of breathing) and the same God that is so huge and created the universe. That's why the name Joel has such huge theological significance - in the Hebrew Ya'el (Joel) means Yahwaeh Elohim - Yahwaeh the God who's Name is as close as the breathing of a new born, and Elohim the God who created massive things like mountains and the universe - so the rabbi's would discuss for days on end "Is Ya El?"

Anyway, sorry for the rabbi trail, short version is I think God no longer fits in modern Christianity, it's gotten to narrow and defined and forgotten that Ya is El.

Do you think that in the beginning, the core of all religions are essentially the same? And it is simply time, politics, and corruption that changes the core belief structure?

 

[fluff]

He is, and I think this is the problem. Modern Christianity has boiled God down to this set of lectures in a systematic theology course...........are you kidding me. The God of the Bible is huge and vast and awesome, but we in our modern analytical minds have defined Him and boiled Him down to the point that we can get Him in our "box" of understanding.

This is the same God who's Name is as close as the breathing of a new born baby (which is what the rabbi's thought YHWH was, the sound of breathing) and the same God that is so huge and created the universe. That's why the name Joel has such huge theological significance - in the Hebrew Ya'el (Joel) means Yahwaeh Elohim - Yahwaeh the God who's Name is as close as the breathing of a new born, and Elohim the God who created massive things like mountains and the universe - so the rabbi's would discuss for days on end "Is Ya El?"

Anyway, sorry for the rabbi trail, short version is I think God no longer fits in modern Christianity, it's gotten to narrow and defined and forgotten that Ya is El.

I called my little boy Joel...

 

[Andyman_1970]

I called my little boy Joel...

Sweet, now you have a cool story for his name. Everyone should have a cool story for their name, that's why we named our son Noah, and no not for the dude that built the boat...........LOL

 

[Brian HCM#1]

So know one really answered the question............If we are supposed to be Gods children, why does he allow pain and suffering to the good ones? I know for my childern I NEVER want to see them hurt and in pain and do everything I can to protect them.

 

[Andyman_1970]

Do you think that in the beginning, the core of all religions are essentially the same? And it is simply time, politics, and corruption that changes the core belief structure?

I’m still developing and reading about this idea but I’ll share with you what I’ve gotten so far:

First, sin falls into two categories, either a) willful disobedience of something God has said, or b) a falling short of some kind. So with “b” in mind, for me those other religions, it’s not that their wrong, it’s that their not big enough. With a nod to who ever coined the phrase all paths lead up the mountain to God (or whatever they said, paraphrase) – it’s like those paths of Buddism, Hinduism, or Islam were a path but fell short of the top.

Anyway, I’m still working through all that, so know this is not some finely refined idea I have and may or may not be full of holes.

 

[Andyman_1970]

So know one really answered the question............If we are supposed to be Gods children, why does he allow pain and suffering to the good ones? I know for my childern I NEVER want to see them hurt and in pain and do everything I can to protect them.

Technically from the Biblical standpoint, we are all His creation to reflect His image and His attributes, but to be a "child" of God one needs to have experienced spiritual rebirth through the Messiah. God give us the choice of whether we want to be His or not.

This brings up the question (from the Biblical point of view) what about "super Christian" who gets cancer and stuff, but Mr. Pagan lives a seemingly happy long life. I can't answer that, but I will read what the rabbi's have written on the subject and post any "break throughs" I find.

Oh and BTW, no follower of Jesus has "all" the answers, if they say yes they are full of poo - just because I'm a Christian doesn't mean I now suddenly know everything...........sorry I had to add that disclaimer.