[MudGrrl]

If someone who believes in God is wrong about God, no big deal.
If someone who dosen't believe in God is wrong.......

so...do you think a lot of people 'believe' in God just to make sure they don't get sent to hell?

That's a pretty crappy reason to believe.


I was 'sent' to a military chaplain (why I was sent to a friggin chaplain instead of somewhere else, I have no clue).

The chaplain said "if you accept the Lord Jesus Christ as your savior, all of your problems will disappear"

to which I responded...I don't believe in Christ, or God for that matter...so you're telling me I am going to hell unless I say that I believe in Jesus. So if I say I accept Christ and don't believe it, I still go to hell, right?

Apparently I am going to hell. I've known this for quite some time, so it's no shock...please, no condolence cards....

I think that God is a 'grown up imaginary friend'.

I think that the reason that people believe in God is because they don't want to believe that they are on this Earth for no reason at all....it's kind of like showing up at work and not being given anything to do....there's no reason to be there.


I think that humans are the most masochistic animals on the face of this planet. We torture ourselves to no end, blaming 'God' for the loss of a loved one...when it was really just a driving accident. "What has God done to me? What sin have I committed?"

People need to think more, love more, and rely on organized religion less.....

just because you own a genuine vatican crucifix, doesn't mean your soul is saved for eternity....

 

[Velocity Girl]

MudGrrl, I find some of that very interesting because it's along the same line of thought I used to use to question my mother about Catholicism. Catholics are taught that if we don't believe and follow their teachings and doctrines we're going to hell. Yet we're taught to tolerant of others and other religions. So I asked her, "so what you're saying is anyone who's not a catholic is going to hell" which of course isn't exactly pc and isn't really flat out said, but it's definitely the logical pattern of thinking. It's the twisted nature of it all, as you pointed out, that I find baffling. What makes one religion right and another wrong, or any religion for that matte???

Peronsally I think there is a "God" and he/she/it is something we obviously don't understand and therefore religions and beliefs are there to try and make sense of it and but some defintion around it because people generally are uneasy with things they can't define. I don't think it's a God that has an active participation in this world, because as BrianHCM#1 pointed out, how could all the suffering in the world continue if that were the case? I also don't think that an active God would allow the persecution and hatred towards others that is spawned from religion. If a God is good, loving and kind, as well as accepting and nuturing of others then persecuting others for differences in lifestyles and beliefs goes against those exact values and why would a God who could intervene allow it to continue, and continue in his/her/it's name???

 

[johnbryanpeters]

There may be a god or gods.
If they're out there, odds are they're beyond our comprehension.
Anybody that claims to speak for the gods is a charlatan or a fool, or both.
Charlatans and fools are often dangerous.

 

[MudGrrl]

There may be a god or gods.
If they're out there, odds are they're beyond our comprehension.
Anybody that claims to speak for the gods is a charlatan or a fool, or both.
Charlatans and fools are often dangerous.

(due to my massive distrust of organized religion in general)

 

[Silver]

God is just a name we give to something we don't understand. Buddhists recognize this fact and don't worry about names, just appreciation and focus...

Well, if you redefine what the word God commonly means to people, I guess you'd be right.

 

[Silver]

If someone who believes in God is wrong about God, no big deal.
If someone who dosen't believe in God is wrong.......

If someone who believes in Allah is wrong about Allah, no big deal.
If someone who dosen't believe in Allah is wrong.......

 

[Silver]

So know one really answered the question............If we are supposed to be Gods children, why does he allow pain and suffering to the good ones? I know for my childern I NEVER want to see them hurt and in pain and do everything I can to protect them.

Well, that isn't a new question. Blame the devil, blame "free will", blame Adam, blame God. That seems to be what it boils down to, but there are problems with all four of those.

Chef may have it right though:

Chef: How's it goin'?
Stan: Bad.
Chef: Yeah. Things have been better.
Stan: Why would God let Kenny die, Chef? Why? Kenny's my fr-f-f-friend. Why can't God take someone else's f-f-friend?
Chef: [sighs] Stan, sometimes God takes those closest to us, because it makes him feel better about himself. He is a very vengeful God, Stan. He's all pissed off about something we did thousands of years ago. He just can't get over it, so he doesn't care who he takes.Children, puppies, it don't matter to him, so long as it makes us sad. Do you understand.
Stan: But then, why does God give us anything to start with?
Chef: Well, look at it this way: if you want to make a baby cry, first you give it a lollipop. Then you take it away. If you never give it a lollipop to begin with, then it would have nothin' to cry about. That's like God, who gives us life and love and help just so that he can tear it all away and make us cry, so he can drink the sweet milk of our tears. You see, it's our tears, Stan, that give God his great power. [pause]
Stan: I thnk I understand.

 

[MudGrrl]

If someone who believes in God is wrong about God, no big deal.
If someone who dosen't believe in God is wrong.......

God: Welcome to heaven.
Dead Person: Man, am I glad that I believed in you just in case.
God: I didn’t know that.
Dead Person: Well, it’s too late now, I’m already here.
God: Darn, tricked again!



(with credit to my friend who's too lazy to post it himself)

 

[Damn True]

If someone who believes in Allah is wrong about Allah, no big deal.
If someone who dosen't believe in Allah is wrong.......

According to South Park the mormons are right so we both may be screwed.

 

[TheInedibleHulk]

If someone who believes in God is wrong about God, no big deal.
If someone who dosen't believe in God is wrong.......

Pascal's Wager.... bullsh1t argument in my opinion. First of all if you are talking about a christian god, then you can't just decide to believe in him/it because it's a better bet for you. The whole point of the Christian idea of God is a god with which you have a relationship, so unless you actually feel some kind of divine interaction then you are just a faker anyway. Secondly, scaring people into beleiving is clearly not consistent with the christian message. And it is a big deal to beleive in God and be wrong. Religion has caused inumerable deaths throughout all of history and continues to do so. The attackers in the planes on 9/11 were wrong about god, and look what happened. The majority of people in this world are defined by their religion and it dictates their behavior. If something is going to control my life, it had better be Damn True.

 

[Andyman_1970]

Secondly, scaring people into beleiving is clearly not consistent with the christian message.

You're exactly right.......now where in the Gospels does Jesus present His way of living as "you don't want to go to Hell do you?".............He never frames the Gospel in that kind of language.

 

[johnbryanpeters]

...The attackers in the planes on 9/11 were wrong about god...

Not knowable.

 

[TheInedibleHulk]

Not knowable.

It's true that I cannot know for sure that they were wrong, I put that in for a bit of irony. I believe with all my heart that they were wrong, just as many people believe with all their hearts that god exists. However, to use the word "know" for anything regarding religion is ridiculous. For some reason many religious people cant understand that and insist that they "know" the truth.

 

[Damn True]

Pascal's Wager.... bullsh1t argument in my opinion. First of all if you are talking about a christian god, then you can't just decide to believe in him/it because it's a better bet for you. The whole point of the Christian idea of God is a god with which you have a relationship, so unless you actually feel some kind of divine interaction then you are just a faker anyway. Secondly, scaring people into beleiving is clearly not consistent with the christian message. And it is a big deal to beleive in God and be wrong. Religion has caused inumerable deaths throughout all of history and continues to do so. The attackers in the planes on 9/11 were wrong about god, and look what happened. The majority of people in this world are defined by their religion and it dictates their behavior. If something is going to control my life, it had better be Damn True.

Totally agree with your point. But I think you missed mine...which was to make a joke.

 

[Velocity Girl]

You're exactly right.......now where in the Gospels does Jesus present His way of living as "you don't want to go to Hell do you?".............He never frames the Gospel in that kind of language.

I agree. But it makes you wonder why they keep beating this fear into people's heads though? If living the life of "X" religion was as great as it's made out to be, why would the fear tactic have to be used at all? Even at the age of 20 I was nervous as hell the first time I missed church on x-mas (due to the flu) and thought I was going to be struck down by lightning....that damn brainwashing can have a powerful effect!

 

[TheInedibleHulk]

Totally agree with your point. But I think you missed mine...which was to make a joke.

Yeah I definately missed that. You would be suprised how many people think that's a good argument.

 

[johnbryanpeters]

It's true that I cannot know for sure that they were wrong, I put that in for a bit of irony. I believe with all my heart that they were wrong, just as many people believe with all their hearts that god exists. However, to use the word "know" for anything regarding religion is ridiculous. For some reason many religious people cant understand that and insist that they "know" the truth.

I believe that they were wrong.

I believe that there are things that are right, that are wrong, and that there's a spectrum between, with a space that's neither.

One aspect of faith for me is whatever gives me the courage to make decisions about issues in the middle of this range.

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

If someone who believes in God is wrong about God, no big deal.
If someone who dosen't believe in God is wrong.......

dont worry about that.. if he is all people say.. he will forgive you anyway. (after all he forgave the guy who tried to killed the pope and rapists and stuff)..

plus you can argue that you were just following his orders of "not praying to false gods" and that idolatry thing can be your aliby.... just ask him why he didnt gave you the power of revelation for you to take him, or blame the misscomunication or something......

 

[Skookum]

So know one really answered the question............If we are supposed to be Gods children, why does he allow pain and suffering to the good ones? I know for my childern I NEVER want to see them hurt and in pain and do everything I can to protect them.

i thought i answered your question, but i think you're just waiting to hear what you want.
To summarize i will state that it's volition, self-will, the gift from either a Creator or thru chance in nature that permits us to percieve and act upon negatives. i don't know about you but i've been **** on alot in my life, sometimes deservedly sometimes not, but it's how we act in the face of adversity which measures our character and these same adversities we can use to help see what is true and real around us.
Protect them from hurt and pain so they can be enabled? Enabled would cause the loved ones to be blinded to, or unable to appreciate what we may percieve as positive things?
Your question is flawed in that respect, so it really isn't relavant to prove or disprove the presence of a higher power.

 

[enkidu]

Well the Pope . . . is the most religious Christian on the face of the planet, but on the flip side his health has been very poor especially the last few years. IF there was really a God, wouldn't he look out for someone of his stature? . . . the suffering this poor man had to endure over the last several years is amazing. If there was truly a God, why couldn't it be as peaceful as living a long healthy life going to bed and never waking up again. I just don't think it's fair that a man of his religious level should have had to suffer like he did.

Here's what John Paul II himself said of human suffering, or rather on the "meaning of human suffering". It's a matter of faith to either see or not see such meaning in suffering, but he lived his own incredible difficulties according to his faith: and that's what makes me admire him. (Theological pros and cons on the validity of his faith sound as immaterial as various chattering critics' quibbling in front of a grand masterpiece of art or of nature.)

http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2SALVI.HTM

 

[johnbryanpeters]

...various chattering critiques...

English, please?

 

[golgiaparatus]

Yeah man the pope was really suffering.

Do I think a singular being that treats Hail Marys like "salvation credits" was looking down on him... I tend to think not but honestly I really cant say for sure one way or the other. Maybe they have it right. Maybe a big human being voted into "office" by a bunch of other human being really does hold some kind of higher connection with this God entity that created the universe. Maybe they dont, WTF do I know.

 

[golgiaparatus]

Why can't god be something bigger, more open, more grand, more maleable than something merely human like?

So much greater and beyond our comprehension?

Why gain your belief in god from what others believe?

Brow beating by another human?

Recognize in yourself all the teachings of your life.

I agree: Why try to nail down (or claim that you have) something that you cant possibly fathom, all possibilities should be open. Personally I dont think anyone has it right so why listen to anyone anyway, we are too small to be able to comprehend something as huge as the universe, let alone how it was created.

God is just a name we give to something we don't understand. Buddhists recognize this fact and don't worry about names, just appreciation and focus...

 

[golgiaparatus]

Ha. Alexis....you make some very good points...it makes one sit back and reflect a bit. I personally think the idea of god has to be an act of faith...Since there is no concrete proof...one just has to have faith.....D

That was pure unadulterated George Carlin...

 

[golgiaparatus]

I’m still developing and reading about this idea but I’ll share with you what I’ve gotten so far:

First, sin falls into two categories, either a) willful disobedience of something God has said, or b) a falling short of some kind. So with “b” in mind, for me those other religions, it’s not that their wrong, it’s that their not big enough. With a nod to who ever coined the phrase all paths lead up the mountain to God (or whatever they said, paraphrase) – it’s like those paths of Buddism, Hinduism, or Islam were a path but fell short of the top.

Buddhism is not a path that leads to god. It only leads to the elimination of want and self. Even the most dedicated christian could benefit from the teachings of Buddha.

 

[golgiaparatus]

To use the word "know" for anything regarding religion is ridiculous. For some reason many religious people cant understand that and insist that they "know" the truth.

 

[Andyman_1970]

It only leads to the elimination of want and self. Even the most dedicated christian could benefit from the teachings of Buddha.

Which is what Jesus teaches, remember Jesus was an Easter teacher...........

 

[golgiaparatus]

Which is what Jesus teaches, remember Jesus was an Easter teacher...........

I know, I was just pointing out the fact that it doesnt lead a person on an path toward god... because there is no "god" goal on the path at all.

 

[enkidu]

English, please?

oops. . . here's the critical edition for jbp: "chattering critics and criticules"

 

[johnbryanpeters]

Can a meaningful distinction be made between the chattering of a critic and the chattering of a theologian?

 

[enkidu]

Can a meaningful distinction be made between the chattering of a critic and the chattering of a theologian?

I can't. That's why I usually ignore the critics and just admire and enjoy the great masterpieces. . . in the museums, nature, and in people. (I do have my favorite chattering topics and moments, but that's only for my passing pleasure.)

 

[johnbryanpeters]

The Domestication of Enkidu

Aruru washed her hands, pinched off a piece of clay, cast it out into the open country.

She created a primitive man, Enkidu the warrior: offspring of silence, sky-bolt of Ninurta. His whole body was shaggy with hair, he was furnished with tresses like a woman, His locks of hair grew luxuriant like grain. Excerpted from S. Dalley, Myths from Mesopotamia (New York: Oxford University Press, 1991), pp. 52-56, 138-39

 

[enkidu]

The Domestication of Enkidu

Aruru washed her hands, pinched off a piece of clay, cast it out into the open country.

She created a primitive man, Enkidu the warrior: offspring of silence, sky-bolt of Ninurta. His whole body was shaggy with hair, he was furnished with tresses like a woman, His locks of hair grew luxuriant like grain. Excerpted from S. Dalley, Myths from Mesopotamia (New York: Oxford University Press, 1991), pp. 52-56, 138-39

Yup, that's me alright. Domestication started as my friendship with Gilgamesh, two-thirds divine and one-third human man in search of eternal life, grew deeper.