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Is this the dumbest thing I've ever seen?

Sandwich

Pig my fish!
Staff member
May 23, 2002
21,031
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borcester rhymes
http://www.pinkbike.com/news/Prototype-SRAM-BlackBox-Derailleur-and-BoXXer-Damper.html

At least on a bike...

Seriously though, they've taken the ultra-narrow 11 speed XX1 and neutered it down to seven gears, and this is an improvement? Could anybody explain to me how this is better? The only logical explanation I can come up with is that with narrower spacing, shifts might be faster...but I've never heard of that being a problem on wider drivetrains, just that you can't get the range you can with more cogs.

So now we have:
Narrower hubs, not taking full advantage of the shorter cassette and the dead space left by running less gears
Narrower spacing, requiring finer tuning and less season-long robustness
Single-block machining, extremely expensive
Requires a special chain and shifter

but the pros:
Shorter throw for the derailleur?
 

4130biker

PM me about Tantrum Cycles!
May 24, 2007
3,884
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Isn't 10 and 11 speed spacing, at least in sram mtb applications, the same?
 

slyfink

Turbo Monkey
Sep 16, 2008
9,289
5,029
Ottawa, Canada
re the narrower hubs issue. it's a proto. presumably to test out the concept, and maybe to see how it works with their new derailleur. perhaps it's a little too early to get our knickers in a twist? maybe it'll lead to wider hubs with narrower cassette bodies with a more useable range for DH applications. Maybe it'll go nowhere and it'll remain a custom, one-off for a rad rider, allowing him to go fast and maintain his domination, therefore not affecting us at all....

so many questions, so little answers....
 

HAB

Chelsea from Seattle
Apr 28, 2007
11,580
2,006
Seattle
Calm the fvck down.


-The hub isn't narrower than any other 150mm hub. Sure, there's potential for wider flange spacing with the pared down cassette, but I'm assuming they just did it this way because it required fewer custom parts, and was easier to make.
-In principle, maybe, but objectively speaking, but my 10 speed drivetrain has been solid. They've definitely got the kinks worked out pretty well.
-The expensive cassette is in no way inherent to the design. You're pissed off because a pro racer is running fancy lightweight parts? OK.
-It probably doesn't require a special shifter. If you take your current drivetrain of choice, crank the limit screws on the derailleur in such that it can't get to a couple gears, you can then set up to the shifter to feel exactly like a 6 or whatever speed as long as its highest gear corresponds to the highest one the derailleur can reach.

I think the idea of a drivetrain with fewer gears is a great idea for DH. If Sram is trying the idea out, I welcome it. Calling the idea the stupid because you don't like the implementation of their one off proto for a factory rider is ridiculous.
 

Sandwich

Pig my fish!
Staff member
May 23, 2002
21,031
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borcester rhymes
easy now, no need to get rustled oh SRAM-fenders of the universe.

No, it's not a narrower hub, but it's not a wider hub, even though it uses a narrower cassette. So you're making a breakthrough component and leaving 20mm of dead space.

There are people who want fewer gears or don't take advantage of 10 speed cassettes. So, the answer is to cut off a few cogs and call it a breakthrough? You can do that today, with your hands, in your garage, without rapid prototyping and a press release.

So again, this is better how?
 

HardtailHack

used an iron once
Jan 20, 2009
6,635
5,446
If they go back to a 135mm back end with a shorter freehub body I would say that would be a step forward but how thay have it I would have thought you'd run a 12T top gear and slide the whole thing in, that way you'd have less chance of smashing your snazzy mech.
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
easy now, no need to get rustled oh SRAM-fenders of the universe.

No, it's not a narrower hub, but it's not a wider hub, even though it uses a narrower cassette. So you're making a breakthrough component and leaving 20mm of dead space.

There are people who want fewer gears or don't take advantage of 10 speed cassettes. So, the answer is to cut off a few cogs and call it a breakthrough? You can do that today, with your hands, in your garage, without rapid prototyping and a press release.

So again, this is better how?
1. that's not a press release

2. you wouldn't do the cassette before redesigning a hub first?

3. It's got a steel pie plate yo!
 

Pegboy

Turbo Monkey
Jan 20, 2003
1,139
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New Hamp-sha
They are doing installments. For the next project they will be strapping a baby gazelle to Gee's back and he will race a cheetah. If this is successful they will move forward with the baby seal, pontoon bike and Great white shark race.
 

'size

Turbo Monkey
May 30, 2007
2,000
338
AZ
No, it's not a narrower hub, but it's not a wider hub, even though it uses a narrower cassette. So you're making a breakthrough component and leaving 20mm of dead space.
it's a damn prototype. why invest the time and money into the one part that does not currently make a difference in testing?

There are people who want fewer gears or don't take advantage of 10 speed cassettes. So, the answer is to cut off a few cogs and call it a breakthrough? You can do that today, with your hands, in your garage, without rapid prototyping and a press release.
it's a damn prototype...

So again, this is better how?
it's a damn prototype...
 

- seb

Turbo Monkey
Apr 10, 2002
2,924
1
UK
I can't believe there's not already a mass-produced 5/6 speed DH set up. It'd sell like hotcakes. I've been doing this to my own cassettes since 2007 by removing various cogs, adding spacers behind the biggest one and putting a longer limit screw in my mech. Typical cassette weight for me is about 100g, and that's without it being fancy-schmancy like those xx1 ones are.

The 9t thing is a nice touch, but inconvenient for a lot of people as it involves changing your freehub for a special one, which won't be available for many rear hubs.

But even without going to 9t the benefits of running fewer gears are numerous; less weight, less *unsprung* weight, and a shorter (less-slappy) chain. And better chainline, in some cases.

5 gears on 8 speed spacing would be ideal, if you could still buy decent 8speed shifters.
 

sundaydoug

Monkey
Jun 8, 2009
609
271
They are doing installments. For the next project they will be strapping a baby gazelle to Gee's back and he will race a cheetah. If this is successful they will move forward with the baby seal, pontoon bike and Great white shark race.
Thread winner. Well-done.
 

OGRipper

back alley ripper
Feb 3, 2004
10,647
1,116
NORCAL is the hizzle
Yeah really. It must be a super bad idea if Gwin thinks it's worth trying. I mean seriously, what does that guy know about going fast?

:rolleyes:

Funny you would have an issue with spacing. It seems kind of obvious that they would want to use the same shifter internals, narrow spacing, and derailleur geometry as their other current groups. If they used a different, unique standard, everyone would complain about needing proprietary stuff. Instead, all else being equal, for this all you might need is the rear der and cassette (and you might be able to hack your own cassette). Seems like a good thing, particularly now that this stuff is trickling down.

Maybe I've just seen more REALLY stupid things than you.
 

HAB

Chelsea from Seattle
Apr 28, 2007
11,580
2,006
Seattle
I'm not looking at this as a finished, production ready product, because it isn't. If this leads to a better packaged, mass produced 6-7 speed DH drive train I'm all for it.
 

sethimus

neu bizutch
Feb 5, 2006
4,882
2,132
not in Whistler anymore :/
I can't believe there's not already a mass-produced 5/6 speed DH set up. It'd sell like hotcakes. I've been doing this to my own cassettes since 2007 by removing various cogs, adding spacers behind the biggest one and putting a longer limit screw in my mech. Typical cassette weight for me is about 100g, and that's without it being fancy-schmancy like those xx1 ones are.

The 9t thing is a nice touch, but inconvenient for a lot of people as it involves changing your freehub for a special one, which won't be available for many rear hubs.

But even without going to 9t the benefits of running fewer gears are numerous; less weight, less *unsprung* weight, and a shorter (less-slappy) chain. And better chainline, in some cases.

5 gears on 8 speed spacing would be ideal, if you could still buy decent 8speed shifters.
i have a slx 11-36 cassette i could use, what kind of spacers would i need if i wouldn't use the 28-36 sprocket unit?
 

dylan s

Chimp
Jan 16, 2010
63
0
Gee some people are old and hate change.......

For starters the xx1 comparison is due to the "straight parallelogram" and doesn't mean it has 11 speed spacing (which it may or may not have). I think its a step forward as we all know 10 speed isn't needed for downhill and any product designed specifically with downhill in mind can only be a good thing. Think about all the years we spent running none direct mount stems because no one wanted to develop something specifically for downhill. New tech is the great when its actually an improvement on old stuff i.e clutch derailiers. Hopefully this is one of those
 

HardtailHack

used an iron once
Jan 20, 2009
6,635
5,446
Damn, so was that just a 10mm axle? I am really hoping to get some money together to get a Katipo frame and I really want a 135mm rear end. 10mm probably won't be any more flexy as the flange that contacts the frame is the same size but not having to torque it up crazy tight would be nice.

Also my comment earlier is moot, I forgot about the 9T driver.
 

jonKranked

Detective Dookie
Nov 10, 2005
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Damn, so was that just a 10mm axle? I am really hoping to get some money together to get a Katipo frame and I really want a 135mm rear end. 10mm probably won't be any more flexy as the flange that contacts the frame is the same size but not having to torque it up crazy tight would be nice.

Also my comment earlier is moot, I forgot about the 9T driver.
i believe it was just 10mm? they may have made an axle conversion to 12mm. their hubs can be converted like hadleys.

i don't think they ever did a 6spd option for the 150mm hub unfortunately.

if you're really interested give profile a call. there's the off chance they may still have some sitting around.
 

HardtailHack

used an iron once
Jan 20, 2009
6,635
5,446
Yeah cool, I have been talking to Bombshell about getting some custom 155mm cranks(I hate long cranks) done and they said it would be OK but I missed the weight limit bit in the description.
I love the small US manufacturers, they usually seem happy to make something weird if you give them a bit more money.
 

buildyourown

Turbo Monkey
Feb 9, 2004
4,832
0
South Seattle
WC guys want super light w/o running a huge range 11sp cassette. SRAM wants it's riders on the latest, and most expensive group, XX1. This is the hacked combo of both. I also imagine SRAM wants to beat the F out of XX1 type parts before going mass market with X01 and letting 11sp trickle down.
The 9t driver and subsequent smaller chainring are a nice plus too.
 

jonKranked

Detective Dookie
Nov 10, 2005
85,573
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WC guys want super light w/o running a huge range 11sp cassette. SRAM wants it's riders on the latest, and most expensive group, XX1. This is the hacked combo of both. I also imagine SRAM wants to beat the F out of XX1 type parts before going mass market with X01 and letting 11sp trickle down.
The 9t driver and subsequent smaller chainring are a nice plus too.

perhaps this will finally lead to a true dh grouppo from srizzam
 

SkullCrack

Monkey
Sep 3, 2004
705
127
PNW
From a Bike Magazine article on their site: http://www.bikemag.com/gear/spotted-sram-7-speed-drivetrain/

Jon Cancellier said:
This is nothing official, we are just trying things out. When the Specialized/Monster Energy tried out micro gearing a few years back we took notice and wanted to see where the benefits lie. What we found through quizzing our athletes is that some want a wide range of gears, some don’t. But most of them explained they wanted more noticeable difference between gears – distinct gearing steps.

We have Gwin on our product now so it has been very interesting working with him because he has experience of other drivetrain systems, knows what he likes and can critically analyze our product. One thing he said was that he enjoyed the ability to shift through two gears on the Shimano product. We asked why and his answer wasn’t that he wanted to shift two gears at once, but that he wanted to get into the right gear faster. So we gave him a cassette with more step between the cogs, giving him a real difference between gears. Now when he comes out of a corner and wants to drop the gears and power out, he doesn’t have to have the system shift twice to be in the correct gear, it’s just once.
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator



Hahaa!!


TEAMROBOT

11/25/2012 5:25 PM

One technique I've been using for a while is to put the cassette on backwards, so that the cogs closest to my spokes are the smallest anyway, preventing that big, nasty drop into the spokes if you over shift. Problem solved! Plus, to my understanding this does not void the SRAM warranty.



Reply

bhalpin47

11/26/2012 2:42 PM

Did you also mount your derailleur on the inside of your hanger, or did you just disassemble it and reverse the parallelogram shifting action? There's no way that worked, especially with the ramped teeth and shifting pins on the cassette.
 

HAB

Chelsea from Seattle
Apr 28, 2007
11,580
2,006
Seattle
I like installing my cassettes in random order. I never know what gear I'm in but the jumps are usually pretty big.