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Is this woman a terrorist?

RenegadeRick

98th percentile on my SAT & all I got was this tin


In-flight confrontations can lead to charges defined as terrorism

Reporting from Los Angeles and Oklahoma City -- Tamera Jo Freeman was on a Frontier Airlines flight to Denver in 2007 when her two children began to quarrel over the window shade and then spilled a Bloody Mary into her lap.

She spanked each of them on the thigh with three swats. It was a small incident, but one that in the heightened anxiety after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks would eventually have enormous ramifications for Freeman and her children.

A flight attendant confronted Freeman, who responded by hurling a few profanities and throwing what remained of a can of tomato juice on the floor.

The incident aboard the Frontier flight ultimately led to Freeman's arrest and conviction for a federal felony defined as an act of terrorism under the Patriot Act, the controversial federal law enacted after the 2001 attacks in New York and Washington.

...

Freeman is one of at least 200 people on flights who have been convicted under the amended law. In most of the cases, there was no evidence that the passengers had attempted to hijack the airplane or physically attack any of the flight crew. Many have simply involved raised voices, foul language and drunken behavior.

Some security experts say the use of the law by airlines and their employees has run amok, criminalizing incidents that did not start out as a threat to public safety, much less an act of terrorism.
Reading further in the article, her kids are now in foster care and there are proceedings for them to be adopted. Is spanking your kids reason to get them taken away?

It is a sad time for America™. Aren't there real terrorists we should be worrying about? The fearmongers keep saying they are out there. Is this really the most fearsome threat we face?
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
Notice that she had a court appointed attorney as well.

That usually doesn't work out so well for the defendant.

All in all, ridiculously harsh consequences for being a drunk asshole.
 

RUFUS

e-douche of the year
Dec 1, 2006
3,480
1
Denver, CO
Absolutely disgusting:banghead:
I don't have anything to say besides that I feel really sorry for that lady.
 

$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
14,591
6
i'm not surprised she was arrested, but i am surprised to read there have been 200 CONVICTIONS, nearly all w/o any evidence of any attempt to take over the plane or attacking the crew.

maybe next time she should choke out the kids & claim post-partum dementia
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,649
26
SF, CA
I don't care who or how old you are. You spill my bloody mary and I will spank your bare ass raw.

(Sorry, grandma, I did it because I love you).
 

sanjuro

Tube Smuggler
Sep 13, 2004
17,373
0
SF
the price of being a cvnt.
This lady might have thought it was ok to behave like she was at Wal-mart.

For those who fly regularly or simply have a clue, you probably know you should be on your best behavior or you could open yourself to a world of problems.

I do think the enforcement of this law should change, possibly the law itself.

But if you don't realize that inside a moving plane is not the place to freak out, then you get what you get.
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,649
26
SF, CA
But if you don't realize that inside a moving plane is not the place to freak out, then you get what you get.
Public humiliation and arrest are fine by me, but conviction of terrorism and taking her kids? Unless there was some pattern of child abuse, that is unconscionable to me.
 

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
11,737
1,820
chez moi
I'm often intrigued by how a particular prosecutor's attitudes can shape an individual case...I've seen them turn down cases of impersonating federal agents, and refuse to punish identity thieves ('cuz they're just hard-working illegal aliens and all) and others do stuff like this.

But you can't pull human judgement, and all that goes along with it, out of the system...otherwise you end up with more cases like this and other similar absurdities.

It seems that some judicial review should clear this up (SCOTUS level?), because convictions for terrorist activity should be made in cases of terrorism...which this is clearly not. There was no attempt to force political/social change or influence policy through violence.

This also gets back into an argument similar to the hate-crime argument; since terrorist acts are violent and violence is illegal, why do we have a crime for a motive, or at its most cynical, a thought? Motive should be taken into account during sentencing, IMHO, not an element of a criminal statute...

(Everyone stand back as RenegadeRick's cardiac arrest subsides...it's not often I expect he agrees with me, at least in part...

(My father-in-law was convicted of misdemeanor assault after throwing some papers on an airline desk in frustration after 3 days of delays and misinformation...)
 

DirtyDog

Gang probed by the Golden Banana
Aug 2, 2005
6,598
0
Ridiculous yes, but I'm just imagining this drunk b1tch and her unruly children making my flight a living hell...... and I'm almost for it again.
 

dante

Unabomber
Feb 13, 2004
8,807
9
looking for classic NE singletrack
Public humiliation and arrest are fine by me, but conviction of terrorism and taking her kids? Unless there was some pattern of child abuse, that is unconscionable to me.
Ok, since my wife actually works with child protective services, I forwarded this to her to see what she might think is the backstory. I'm guessing that there is a LOT more to this than the one-sided article is reporting. I mean, she wasn't arrested for spanking her kids, she was arrested for being drunk, disorderly, and "hurling... profanities and throwing what remained of a can of tomato juice on the floor (or at the flight attendant)." Also, I'm pretty sure that even being convicted of a felony isn't enough (by itself) to get your kids taken away. It has to be proven that your kids are in serious and immediate danger of harm due to abuse or neglect.

A completely different take on the whole thing:

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/news_columnists/article/0,1299,DRMN_86_5639468,00.html

Flight attendant Amy Fleming finally tries to intervene. "Mind your own business," Tamera Jo Freeman allegedly spits, before demanding another drink. Fleming refuses.

The woman then curses Amy Fleming and, amazingly, witnesses said, flings a drink at her. No one does anything.

Here's a part I really don't get. Tamera Jo Fleming allegedly leaves her seat and corners the flight attendant, screaming at her.
So she was drunk, disorderly, and there are (multiple) witnesses that came forward and testified that she was abusing her kids long before she even got on the plane. Then she continued to abuse them and proceeded to assault a flight attendant.

So, terrorism? Not sure I agree with that, but there is definitely a lot more to this story than "she spanked her kids, was arrested for being a terrorist and lost custody of her children".
 

$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
14,591
6
let the punishment fit the charge: put her in a burqa & send her to market. i really am surprised no one plunged a ballpoint pen into her neck or ran her down w/ a beverage cart
 

DirtyDog

Gang probed by the Golden Banana
Aug 2, 2005
6,598
0
living hell...you must lead a pretty pampered life.
You know what I mean princess. Being in tight quarters for several hours is pretty ucomfortable when you have jackasses around you that are not capable of common courtesy or worse.

I swear, you have gone out of your way to be a dick for years. What exactly is your problem?
 

Transcend

My Nuts Are Flat
Apr 18, 2002
18,040
3
Towing the party line.
living hell...you must lead a pretty pampered life.
I'm not sure about you, but i have flown a few hundred thousand airmiles in the last 2 years, around 100 at least last year alone. I can assure you that bratty kids and a drunken on a 14 hour flight (in my case, not this one); will indeed make it hell for all those around her.

Also, certainly not terrorism. Seeing laws be abused like this is disgusting.
 

DirtMcGirk

<b>WAY</b> Dumber than N8 (to the power of ten alm
Feb 21, 2008
6,379
1
Oz
Screw it, if I am getting busted by the air marshal, I am going for the terrorist label. Vaginal punching and scrotum boxing are fair play now.
 

valve bouncer

Master Dildoist
Feb 11, 2002
7,843
114
Japan
Sounds like some of you blokes need to start flying some better airlines. Or get some good noise cancelling headphones.
 

dante

Unabomber
Feb 13, 2004
8,807
9
looking for classic NE singletrack
Sounds like some of you blokes need to start flying some better airlines. Or get some good noise cancelling headphones.
The best airline I've flown (Cathay Pacific) we nicknamed Screaming Baby Airlines due to the Chinese tradition of taking newborns to meet the extended family as soon as they were old enough to travel... Even the best noise canceling headphones won't keep out the shrill voice of a 3 month old. They also don't work on kids kicking the back of the seat, or on drunk mothers who alternately beat their kids and throw their drinks at the flight attendants.
 

narlus

Eastcoast Softcore
Staff member
Nov 7, 2001
24,658
65
behind the viewfinder
You know what I mean princess. Being in tight quarters for several hours is pretty ucomfortable when you have jackasses around you that are not capable of common courtesy or worse.

I swear, you have gone out of your way to be a dick for years. What exactly is your problem?
no problem here boss. i read the story and it's nothing that a book and some shure e2cs couldn't handle. to think the woman is going to lose custody over her kids because of this is insane. surely you've got some empathy, no? or does it conflict w/ the anti-breeder crusade?

I'm not sure about you, but i have flown a few hundred thousand airmiles in the last 2 years, around 100 at least last year alone. I can assure you that bratty kids and a drunken on a 14 hour flight (in my case, not this one); will indeed make it hell for all those around her.

Also, certainly not terrorism. Seeing laws be abused like this is disgusting.
oh, i know about the inconveniences of travel. maybe not to your extent.

btw, my kids are not or never were an issue on flights (or in public in general). i do have respect for others.
 

dante

Unabomber
Feb 13, 2004
8,807
9
looking for classic NE singletrack
to think the woman is going to lose custody over her kids because of this is insane.
did you not read my post? this woman did not lose her kids for a simple spanking no matter what the LATimes says... she wasn't charged with terrorism (not something I agree with) for spanking her kids either, it was for being drunk, disorderly and assaulting a flight attendant.

If in doubt, go directly to plan C.

tried that exact combination on one flight, and yes, it was by FAR the best, most enjoyable 15 hour flight I've ever been on. :thumb:
 

narlus

Eastcoast Softcore
Staff member
Nov 7, 2001
24,658
65
behind the viewfinder
did you not read my post? this woman did not lose her kids for a simple spanking no matter what the LATimes says... she wasn't charged with terrorism (not something I agree with) for spanking her kids either, it was for being drunk, disorderly and assaulting a flight attendant.
i didn't read your post. i was under the impression she was being prosecuted under the Patriot Act, no?
 

dan-o

Turbo Monkey
Jun 30, 2004
6,499
2,805
People who don't control themselves or their kids on flights suck.
People who expect air travel to be a personal oasis devoid of compromise are deluded.
 

fortenndu

Turbo Monkey
Apr 22, 2008
1,573
0
Boone, NC
I hadn't heard of this, I'm disgusted. This is not what America should be, our government is becoming more and more controlling. I for one do not want to live in Soviet America.
 

narlus

Eastcoast Softcore
Staff member
Nov 7, 2001
24,658
65
behind the viewfinder
go read the link I posted. even being convicted of a felony is (generally) not enough to get your kids taken away. there was a pattern of abuse that was noted by multiple witnesses...
yeah, not a pretty picture for Tamara painted there...two sides of the story. sounds like she's got some serious issues.