[Damn True]

Ok, hypothetical situation here.

Regardless of who wins the election......If the POTUS was to all of a sudden say, "Geez Bin-Laden, yer right." and go ahead and stop supporting Israel what happens then?

IMO the muslim nations surrounding Israel will descend upon that country quicker than we can say "rampant antisemitism and attempted genocide".

 

[Westy]

If we stop support of Israel tommorow they will still have the ability to defend themeselves. 10 years from now would be a different story. Although the Israeli defense industry has developed over the years they could build the equipment it would just then be a matter of paying for it.

 

[Skookum]

when i was a kid i used to like "What If" comics. My favorite one was "What if the Hulk went Berserk!". He wound up killing Iron Man, the fantastic four, hell i think he even killed Captain America. But then Thor stepped in and broke his neck, it was cool. ink:

 

[Westy]

when i was a kid i used to like "What If" comics. My favorite one was "What if the Hulk went Berserk!". He wound up killing Iron Man, the fantastic four, hell i think he even killed Captain America. But then Thor stepped in and broke his neck, it was cool. ink:

Meh, the Hulk could never kill Iron Man. But I'd love to see him do bad things to the Wonder Twins and Aqua Man, pussies.

 

[Lexx D]

Ok, hypothetical situation here.

Regardless of who wins the election......If the POTUS was to all of a sudden say, "Geez Bin-Laden, yer right." and go ahead and stop supporting Israel what happens then?

IMO the muslim nations surrounding Israel will descend upon that country quicker than we can say "rampant antisemitism and attempted genocide".

Well according to the bible we would no longer have God on our nations side. Not that i think he is anyway.

 

[Toshi]

If we stop support of Israel tommorow they will still have the ability to defend themeselves. 10 years from now would be a different story. Although the Israeli defense industry has developed over the years they could build the equipment it would just then be a matter of paying for it.

they have nukes. their leadership is ruthless. don't worry about them.

 

[Skookum]

Meh, the Hulk could never kill Iron Man. But I'd love to see him do bad things to the Wonder Twins and Aqua Man, pussies.

Nerd.....

 

[golgiaparatus]

they have nukes. their leadership is ruthless. don't worry about them.

 

[Damn True]

they have nukes. their leadership is ruthless. don't worry about them.

How do you nuke the PLO, Hammas or any of the other groups that will turn Israel into a killing field as soon as the US dollars dry up.

 

[Changleen]

How do you nuke the PLO, Hammas or any of the other groups that will turn Israel into a killing field as soon as the US dollars dry up.

Is that a question, a statement or just not reading the posts that came before? Israel has plenty of Guns, tanks, attack helicopters and so on. They'll be fine on their own. Besides that, they probably deserve anything they get.

 

[DRB]

Is that a question, a statement or just not reading the posts that came before? Israel has plenty of Guns, tanks, attack helicopters and so on. They'll be fine on their own. Besides that, they probably deserve anything they get.

Yeah like not being hated, hunted, abandoned and murdered for the better part of 2000 years. I think that they easily deserve that. Where they are now is as a result of not being taken up in the past. When no one takes care of you, you learn to take care of yourself.

They might be alright if they are left on their own but it certainly not the right thing to do.

 

[MTB_Rob_NC]

Israel has plenty of Guns, tanks, attack helicopters and so on. They'll be fine on their own. Besides that, they probably deserve anything they get.

Kinda like in 1967 when they got more land.

 

[-BB-]

Ok, hypothetical situation here.

Regardless of who wins the election......If the POTUS was to all of a sudden say, "Geez Bin-Laden, yer right." and go ahead and stop supporting Israel what happens then?

IMO the muslim nations surrounding Israel will descend upon that country quicker than we can say "rampant antisemitism and attempted genocide".

No they won't... just b/c fo the nukes.

 

[Silver]

Yeah like not being hated, hunted, abandoned and murdered for the better part of 2000 years. I think that they easily deserve that. Where they are now is as a result of not being taken up in the past. When no one takes care of you, you learn to take care of yourself.

I'd personally feel a lot better if the Israelis didn't use that as an excuse to do the same thing to another group of people. Human nature though, I guess.

 

[Damn True]

Besides that, they probably deserve anything they get.

HOLY CRAP?!?!? You didn't just say that did you?

 

[ohio]

Yeah like not being hated, hunted, abandoned and murdered for the better part of 2000 years. I think that they easily deserve that. Where they are now is as a result of not being taken up in the past. When no one takes care of you, you learn to take care of yourself.

They might be alright if they are left on their own but it certainly not the right thing to do.

I'm with Silver on this one. We're not talking about a thin line. There is a lot of room between "support" and "carte blanche for genocide."

 

[DRB]

I'd personally feel a lot better if the Israelis didn't use that as an excuse to do the same thing to another group of people. Human nature though, I guess.

Compared to some aspects of human nature they have faced, I'm thinking its a pretty minor character flaw.

 

[DRB]

I'm with Silver on this one. We're not talking about a thin line. There is a lot of room between "support" and "carte blanche for genocide."

I never said that the US should support Israel without question. Israel's methods have been hard, swift and with no mercy. You can go as far as the genocide label, I wouldn't. Do unto others as they have done unto you. Not quite the the golden rule.

BUT there are two sides to this, two sides with so much history that reason seems to get in the way at every turn. It is the ultimate chicken and egg. Someone started the mess but at this point it really doesn't matter. They both are completely to blame. Neither side has shown any real effort to fix the problem.

Maybe Arfat dying (which I don't wish upon him) is what the process needs to get something fresh started. Then again it could be Yugoslavia all over again after Tito's death.

I do think that the Israelis are more than capable of dealing with ANY Arab threat. They can simply hang the nuclear card over any nation with half a thought of moving against them.

I do think that the US taking an overly hardline stance in regards to Israel isn't going to really help anything. Israel has pretty much proven over time that they aren't really susceptable to outside . I also think that it might turn into an invitation for an increase in violence on the part of both sides. One side trying to ratchet up the pressure the other side standing firm to show strength probably even striking back even harder.

However, the crystal ball for the future of the Israelis and the Palestians ain't in my possession. Hence my overuse of THINK.

 

[Silver]

I just keep thinking Arizona or New Mexico would have been better than Palestine. After all, we do allright with the Mormon's running their own little theocracy in Utah...

 

[DRB]

I just keep thinking Arizona or New Mexico would have been better than Palestine. After all, we do allright with the Mormon's running their own little theocracy in Utah...

I wonder if they (whichever they) would have taken it.

 

[Changleen]

I wonder if they (whichever they) would have taken it.

I doubt it, they both seem to think their little bit of desert is the best spot in the world.

 

[Changleen]

I never said that the US should support Israel without question. Israel's methods have been hard, swift and with no mercy. You can go as far as the genocide label, I wouldn't. Do unto others as they have done unto you. Not quite the the golden rule.

BUT there are two sides to this, two sides with so much history that reason seems to get in the way at every turn. It is the ultimate chicken and egg. Someone started the mess but at this point it really doesn't matter. They both are completely to blame. Neither side has shown any real effort to fix the problem.

Maybe Arfat dying (which I don't wish upon him) is what the process needs to get something fresh started. Then again it could be Yugoslavia all over again after Tito's death.

I do think that the Israelis are more than capable of dealing with ANY Arab threat. They can simply hang the nuclear card over any nation with half a thought of moving against them.

I do think that the US taking an overly hardline stance in regards to Israel isn't going to really help anything. Israel has pretty much proven over time that they aren't really susceptable to outside . I also think that it might turn into an invitation for an increase in violence on the part of both sides. One side trying to ratchet up the pressure the other side standing firm to show strength probably even striking back even harder.

However, the crystal ball for the future of the Israelis and the Palestians ain't in my possession. Hence my overuse of THINK.

Good post except:

I do think that the US taking an overly hardline stance in regards to Israel isn't going to really help anything. Israel has pretty much proven over time that they aren't really susceptable to outside

The US is the reason for that. They pay off concerned Arab neighbours to the tune of nearly 50 billion a year to shut the hell up and veto anything the UN tries to do to help the situation.

The US currently has a hardline position on Israel - "Whatever they do is OK". That's the problem.

 

[Changleen]

I'm with Silver on this one. We're not talking about a thin line. There is a lot of room between "support" and "carte blanche for genocide."

 

[DRB]

Good post except:The US is the reason for that. They pay off concerned Arab neighbours to the tune of nearly 50 billion a year to shut the hell up and veto anything the UN tries to do to help the situation.

The US currently has a hardline position on Israel - "Whatever they do is OK". That's the problem.

Okay what would it accomplish? What do you think that the Arab neighbors could do to Israel? Israel would bitch slap them without anyone's help. Maybe 20 years ago, the Arabs were in a better position to do something but those days are long gone.

The US's position on the Middle East is far from the problem. The problem again is 2000 plus of history. But I'm guessing that you would rather Israel disappear (getting what they deserve I think you said.). Pretty much solve the problem wouldn't it.

 

[Changleen]

Okay what would it accomplish? What do you think that the Arab neighbors could do to Israel? Israel would bitch slap them without anyone's help. Maybe 20 years ago, the Arabs were in a better position to do something but those days are long gone.

The US's position on the Middle East is far from the problem. The problem again is 2000 plus of history. But I'm guessing that you would rather Israel disappear (getting what they deserve I think you said.). Pretty much solve the problem wouldn't it.

Funny that pretty much the entire rest of the world thinks it IS a big part of the problem then, eh? The US populace alone is blinkered enough to deny their contribution to the situation.

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

Funny that pretty much the entire rest of the world thinks it IS a big part of the problem then, eh? The US populace alone is blinkered enough to deny their contribution to the situation.

again, in absolute moral frames of reference, you cannot do harm, if you dont MEAN to make no harm.

digging into that backbone in people is hitting a wall.

 

[Damn True]

Maybe Arfat dying (which I don't wish upon him) is what the process needs to get something fresh started. Then again it could be Yugoslavia all over again after Tito's death.

Two words:
Black September.


Yes, Arrafat should die. In fact he should have died long ago.
He was behind Black September, behind the PLO, harbours Hammas etc etc.

 

[Damn True]

Okay what would it accomplish? What do you think that the Arab neighbors could do to Israel? Israel would bitch slap them without anyone's help. Maybe 20 years ago, the Arabs were in a better position to do something but those days are long gone.

The US's position on the Middle East is far from the problem. The problem again is 2000 plus of history. But I'm guessing that you would rather Israel disappear (getting what they deserve I think you said.). Pretty much solve the problem wouldn't it.

I dunno. I think Israel can take care of itself now, but if US money dried up they'd be ripe for the picking. Which is WHY the rest of that region wants us to pull the money.

 

[Changleen]

Two words:
Black September.


Yes, Arrafat should die. In fact he should have died long ago.
He was behind Black September, behind the PLO, harbours Hammas etc etc.

Should Sharron and Bush die too, then?

 

[Damn True]

Tell me you aren't comparing Bush to career terrorist Yasser Arrafat?
Lay down the crack pipe.

 

[DRB]

Funny that pretty much the entire rest of the world thinks it IS a big part of the problem then, eh? The US populace alone is blinkered enough to deny their contribution to the situation.

Okay so the US is a big part of the problem. Tomorrow the US changes its policy to one that you agree with and by extension the rest of the world, do you honestly think that gets us closer to fixing the situation there.

Of course you do because your blinders allow you to see nothing more than the US as the problem while ignoring the true and real issues of the region.

 

[Changleen]

Tell me you aren't comparing Bush to career terrorist Yasser Arrafat?
Lay down the crack pipe.

Well, Bush has only had 4 years, but he's trying pretty hard. Let's take the conservative figure of 30,000 Iraqi civilian deaths, 1000+ US deaths, 3000 civilian deaths in Afghanistan for a start. 34000 dead. That's 8500 deaths per year for Bush, most of which were actually incured in the past two years. 23 deaths per day due to his actions. He really wasn't trying before 9/11.


The number of Israeli deaths from all Palestinian groups during this time is around 200 per year. (360 each 18 months). As you see, that's less than one a day.

Do you want to add in the number of Palestinians killed with US made equipment or paid for with US donated funds? Or maybe number of wounded on both sides?

Yeah, I'm comparing them.

 

[Changleen]

Okay so the US is a big part of the problem. Tomorrow the US changes its policy to one that you agree with and by extension the rest of the world, do you honestly think that gets us closer to fixing the situation there.

Yes! As you just said yourself in the sentance before "Okay so the US is a big part of the problem" - If you remove a big part of the problem, you are by definition that much closer to a resolution. And without being quite so pedantic - yes, I think it really would help. I've been over this in quite a few threads, but anyway - I think that basically unless Israel is feeling particularly stupid and aggresive it will essentially be forced into negotiations with the Palestinians which will help it move closer to a workable, viable 2 state solution.

Of course you do because your blinders allow you to see nothing more than the US as the problem while ignoring the true and real issues of the region.

I am thoroughly aware of the other issues that need resolving to make this area a peaceful place, (religion being a huge one!)however certain people were denying the US had anything to do with it, which I took issue with, as it is rubbish.

 

[DRB]

Yes! As you just said yourself in the sentance before "Okay so the US is a big part of the problem" - If you remove a big part of the problem, you are by definition that much closer to a resolution. And without being quite so pedantic - yes, I think it really would help. I've been over this in quite a few threads, but anyway - I think that basically unless Israel is feeling particularly stupid and aggresive it will essentially be forced into negotiations with the Palestinians which will help it move closer to a workable, viable 2 state solution.
I am thoroughly aware of the other issues that need resolving to make this area a peaceful place, (religion being a huge one!)however certain people were denying the US had anything to do with it, which I took issue with, as it is rubbish.

So somehow the US has supplanted religion and 2000 years of history as the main cause of violence in the Israel? Surely you can't seriously believe that. Even you recognize that religion is huge one. It is the lynch pin in the whole thing along with 2000 years of mistreatment, violence and mistrust. That is regardless of US policy or involvement. It wouldn't change anyone's feelings in regards to Jerusalem or any of the religious sites that cause so much emotion.

How do you figure that Israel is going to be forced into anything. They have a well trained, well equipment, nuclear capable armed forces. A population that is basically use to living in a war zone. Neighbors that are toothless militarily. A strangely self sufficient economy. Forcing them into anything is not going to work, they are going to have to want to make it work on their terms or at least something close to their terms.

And again you seem to think that the Palestianians are even interested in negotiating anything. Again they are as culpable in this mess as the Israelis.

 

[Changleen]

So somehow the US has supplanted religion and 2000 years of history as the main cause of violence in the Israel? Surely you can't seriously believe that. Even you recognize that religion is huge one. It is the lynch pin in the whole thing along with 2000 years of mistreatment, violence and mistrust. That is regardless of US policy or involvement. It wouldn't change anyone's feelings in regards to Jerusalem or any of the religious sites that cause so much emotion.

Israel was only created after WW2, remember? The US has been playing it's current role since then. They are an integral part of the question now, as everything Israel has obtained has been helped by the US. Look up the number of UN resolutions against Israel that have been veto'd by the US. Look at the HUNDREDS of BILLIONS that the US has simply given to Israel. Yes, the historic issues are problematic, but DUDE!

How do you figure that Israel is going to be forced into anything. They have a well trained, well equipment, nuclear capable armed forces. A population that is basically use to living in a war zone. Neighbors that are toothless militarily. A strangely self sufficient economy. Forcing them into anything is not going to work, they are going to have to want to make it work on their terms or at least something close to their terms.

Unless their first response to a new situation isn't to just go to war... I mean I know it's how GW operates, but..

And again you seem to think that the Palestianians are even interested in negotiating anything. Again they are as culpable in this mess as the Israelis.

Yes, they are. However they are also humans as America sometimes forgets.

 

[DRB]

Israel was only created after WW2, remember? The US has been playing it's current role since then. They are an integral part of the question now, as everything Israel has obtained has been helped by the US. Look up the number of UN resolutions against Israel that have been veto'd by the US. Look at the HUNDREDS of BILLIONS that the US has simply given to Israel. Yes, the historic issues are problematic, but DUDE!
Unless their first response to a new situation isn't to just go to war... I mean I know it's how GW operates, but..
Yes, they are. However they are also humans as America sometimes forgets.

Israel, Palestine and the Jews are synonomous and can't be separated. The conflict goes back 2000 years and as I have already said is rooted in religion and land conflict. That stuff can't be marginalized just to suit your notion that the US is the cause of the violence and turmoil in Israel.

Yep the US has supported Israel soon after the British left Palaestine with their tails between their legs. The best opportunity to fix the entire mess was then but the UK was simply not interested in making it right. After the British, it was the US and only the US that provided any material and monetary support to keep Israel from being wiped off the face of the earth. Europe hardly ever lifted a finger to make any of that right.

And please don't be confused about the desire of the leadership of the PLO and what their goals are.

PLO Executive Council, Zuhair Muhsin said

There are no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. We are all part of one nation. It is only for political reasons that we carefully underline our Palestinian identity....yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only tactical purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel.