[rockwool]

And it is one among 30+ parties, more than a couple of whom want to see canada cease to exist as it currently does. They are all allowed to have a voice, as they are the voice of the people (to whatever degree of support they have behind them).

Disenfranchising the population is not the answer. If, hypothetically, 90% of Israel's population wanted to see Israel cease to exist, it would be atrocious for the government to try and do otherwise simply to keep themselves employed and in power.

And like in 95 they had a (second) referendum in the Frensch parts of Canada for the creation of their own state. I belive the first referendum was in 85?

I understand and acknowledge that, but Canada would still exist, under the parties being discussed Israel would not exist at all. VERY DIFFERENT. I don't see the similarity between calling for a part of a country to become another country and, one minority group of people in a country taking over and kicking out/ killing the majority (their words not mine) in order to create an entirely new country

I've answered this but I want to stress that the stances of those two parties were not about seasing the existance of Israel, nor kicking anyone out, only a change in the constitution to evolve from a race specific state to a state for all its citizens.

Again if you would read my posts you would see that I agree with you that if Arab-Israelis (Arab-Israeli's not Palestinians these are Arabs who live in Israel proper who actually have the same rights as Israelis) want to destroy Israel and create a political party about it (so long as they no longer openly advocate genocide, if you are going to try and defend that then you truly are retarded) then so be it. All I am saying is you are comparing 2 totally different situations that don't work. All I am trying to do is point out the other side of the argument (and stating a disagree with it) to have an understanding of where both sides are coming from.

Those are indeed Palestinians that wouldn't let the terrorist actions of organizations like the Haganah and the Stern Gang scare them into leaving their homes. I saw a short documentary/reportage about those who opted to stay in Jaffa.

 

[rockwool]

I want to add some reflections and quotes that I've picked up.


* "This is not a war among two countries, it's a unilateral war waged against a territory, a people, an occupation. It's an act of agression, not a war."


* "They're already conceeding 78% of original Palestine."


* "Israel was also created so that the US/UK would have an extention of them in an area that's full of oil".


* A Canadian law professor (from Montreal or Toronto, can't remember) said: "Your obligation is to show restraint" when talking about the situation of the superior part.
It think it would be interesting to see what would happen if we looked at how our various judicial systems would rule in a case where the roles of Pa and Is are swopped for two individuals. Are one allowed a carte blanche when defending one self from a much weeker (or stronger) part.


* 971 Palestinians dead, 4418 injured.


* At least 40% of the victims are women or children.


* The Red Cross will since monday no longer acompany ambulances due to fear of Israeli attacks.


* What motive does one have behind boobietrapping a zoo? And why do they the mines (brick size) and the wires, about 1" thick!!! and all taped white, and not dug down/camoflaged? The mine was laying out in the open under a park bench. Israel must think we share their view that ragheads are even dumber than ni**ers, and totally heartless to do this against the childrens favorite place.


* I saw yesterday how they actually aim those Qassam rockets that official Israeli souces claim are "deliberately aimed/targeted on civilans": By compass that for clarity has been laid on an A4 sheet of paper. No aiming devise with X-Y coordinates, no forward coordinator, no GPS, nothing.


* GWB said: "A vibrant economy will lead to democracy". Obviously he doesn't want peace as he wouldn't participate in the blockade.


* I've noticed that GWB has throughout his speeches stressed a two state sollution, and that this is the will of both people. If I didn't know better I would have seen the similarity with other undisputed "truths" that continously are being hammered into our heads.

* "This crisis could actually be the turningpoint of Abbas". About that he will be held accountable by the masses at home, including those of the Arab world.

* Ron Paul has recently been on a lot of interviews and described the congress devided between Intervensionists and Constitutionalists. He gets my Republican Honkey of the Year 2008 Award for his values.


* Israeli officials seems to want a medal for doing what is the duty of any occupying force to care for the civilans (about the aid that now finally is being shipped in).


* "Palestine have been calling for an international force in Palestine for 30 years now".


* And last, the claim that "a ceasefire will only allow the Hamas to build up its weapons again", while the first thing the US did (on the 27-28 Dec) was to arrange for weapons to Israel from their base on Creete.

The US Military Sealift Command on Dec. 31st published a solicitation for bids from shipping companies to ship two boats, each containing 168 TEU's (twenty-foot equivalent container units) of ammunition, from Greece to Israel.

The description of the vessels required was brief:

"Required: Request US or foreign flag container vessel (coaster) to move approximately 168 TEU's [standard twenty-foot containers] in each of two consecutive voyages both containing ammunition."

That shippment has been blocked by Athens!!! Finally a western country that actually does something.

 

[Secret Squirrel]

I understand and acknowledge that, but Canada would still exist, under the parties being discussed Israel would not exist at all. VERY DIFFERENT. I don't see the similarity between calling for a part of a country to become another country and, one minority group of people in a country taking over and kicking out/ killing the majority (their words not mine) in order to create an entirely new country

No....you don't understand...

There are the Bloc Quebecois that want a separated Quebec (simplified, I know) and there are separatist groups that want the dissolution of Canada entirely. Just like the groups that want Israel to cease to exist as a sovereign nation.

The difference is, in Canada, they're allowed in government...

Keep up...

 

[TheMontashu]

I don't really mean to sidetrack this, but there is some pretty significant discrimination against Arabs in Israel.

that is also a complicated issue, it's not like the Arab Israelis particularly want to be involved in having anything to do with Israelis or being Israeli

 

[Samirol]

that is also a complicated issue, it's not like the Arab Israelis particularly want to be involved in having anything to do with Israelis or being Israeli

That is a really common thing with any ethnic minority, it is Mexicans that don't want to be American in the U.S., Muslims that don't want to be Danish, etc. The degree I would imagine is much bigger in Israel due to the history there though.

 

[rockwool]

Sidetracking... I think that assimilation is wrong as it makes people lose their roots. People should be accepted with what ever background they have. It's always those taht are afraid to stand out from the crowd that want people to become like them.

 

[Samirol]

Sidetracking... I think that assimilation is wrong as it makes people lose their roots. People should be accepted with what ever background they have. It's always those taht are afraid to stand out from the crowd that want people to become like them.

My post was probably unclear, I meant to say that people always accuse ethnic minorities of not assimilating, not that they should.

 

[TheMontashu]

Sidetracking... I think that assimilation is wrong as it makes people lose their roots. People should be accepted with what ever background they have. It's always those taht are afraid to stand out from the crowd that want people to become like them.

It's not even assimilating I am talking about. Most Jewish Israeli's don't know any or have any Arab Israeli friends. I am talking about simple interactions, it's like there are 2 countries in Israel one Arab one Jewish. I think allot of progress could be made if Arabs and Jews started doing things like, shopping at the same stores and working together (like at a job)

 

[rockwool]

It's not even assimilating I am talking about. Most Jewish Israeli's don't know any or have any Arab Israeli friends. I am talking about simple interactions, it's like there are 2 countries in Israel one Arab one Jewish. I think allot of progress could be made if Arabs and Jews started doing things like, shopping at the same stores and working together (like at a job)

I see Sweden in what you drew up there. Us "blackheads" tend to keep to us, for comfort among ones own in a forgeign country, and Swedes generally loath those immigrant heavy neighbourhoods beucause of all those strange, or rather different, people.
Babylon has more than a finger in that this situation has occured as they tend to create those neighbourhoods them selves through social services, apartment services, etc.





Latest on the news: Ehud Olmert claims that he was the reason that C.Rice voted against the Security Council resolution last week as he called GWB and sorta ordered him to do so 10min before the vote. GWB tried to slip away from doing so and said something about "I'm not familiar with that phrase", Olmert answered "well I am". GWB then called C.R. who had to vote against what she had said in her speach just a moment earlier.

 

[$tinkle]

Latest on the news: Ehud Olmert claims that he was the reason that C.Rice voted against the Security Council resolution last week as he called GWB and sorta ordered him to do so 10min before the vote. GWB tried to slip away from doing so and said something about "I'm not familiar with that phrase", Olmert answered "well I am". GWB then called C.R. who had to vote against what she had said in her speach just a moment earlier.

pure lies.

we only jumped down off his lap to go pee on someone's flowers. the vote was never at risk

 

[Samirol]

http://www.krysstal.com/democracy_whyusa03.html

The US always vetoes them

 

[Samirol]

More on WP use by Israel

http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0114/p07s01-wome.html

excerpt:

Marc Garlasco has been on the northern border of Gaza for the past five days watching what he says are white phosphorus munitions exploding over a crowded refugee camp.

Mr. Garlasco, a senior military analyst for New York-based Human Rights Watch (HRW), says that the way Israel is using the incendiary device is illegal. White phosphorus shells contain more than 100 felt filaments that ignite upon contact with the atmosphere, drift to earth, and burn intensely for at least 10 to 12 minutes.

 

[Defenestrated]

Why on Earth would you use white phosphorus, and if you are gonna use it, why would you use it near a refugee camp?

Israel not giving a fvck I see.

 

[Samirol]

Why on Earth would you use white phosphorus, and if you are gonna use it, why would you use it near a refugee camp?

Israel not giving a fvck I see.

it is the best smokescreen known to man according to wikipedia, and it uses the oxygen to create smoke and massive heat

 

[Transcend]

Why on Earth would you use white phosphorus, and if you are gonna use it, why would you use it near a refugee camp?

Israel not giving a fvck I see.

White phosphorous has very legitimate uses. As a screening agent it can actually disrupt infrared vision equipment, as well as the mark 1 eyeball, obviously. It is also a great illumination tool.

Using it on people is absolutely unacceptable however. Even breathing in the smoke can cause burning of the tissue of the lungs, as well as various forms of poisoning due to toxic elements in it.

 

[Defenestrated]

I know it's used for spotting and illuminating targets, however clearly that isn't what Israel's intent is.

 

[Silver]

Using it on people is absolute unacceptable however. Even breathing in the smoke can cause burning of the tissue of the lungs, as well as various forms of poisoning due to toxic elements in it.

The Israelis aren't using it on people though.

They are using it on Arabs. And not just normal Arabs that we sometimes like (because they have oil); they are using it on the n****r of the Arab world, so they know they have carte blanche to do whatever the hell they want.

 

[drkenan]

And just when I thought Israel's aim couldn't get any worse...

Israel shelled the United Nations headquarters in the Gaza Strip on Thursday, engulfing the compound and a warehouse in fire and destroying thousands of pounds of food and humanitarian supplies intended for Palestinian refugees.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090115/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians


My tax dollars hard at work.

 

[$tinkle]

article also goes on to say hamas was using the un hq as an offensive position, which, if i were a cornered & outgunned rat i would consider doing too. especially if i never signed onto any pact guaranteeing my wartime behavior

update on WP: ICRC: Israel's use of white phosphorus not illegal

 

[drkenan]

article also goes on to say hamas was using the un hq as an offensive position, which, if i were a cornered & outgunned rat i would consider doing too.
[/url]

And a UN official who was there at the time in question called the allegation "nonsense."

 

[Transcend]

I highly doubt the UN is allowing Hamas to use it's HQ in Gaza as a base of operations. Give me a break.

Israel is despicable. Hopefully this crap will make the rest of the world rethink the aid (specifically financially and militarily) that they give to Israel.

 

[$tinkle]

to be clear: i don't for a second believe the un is complicit in any acts perpetrated by hamas.

i also do not believe they have the intelligence gathering of an orbiting drone (like israel does). can you picture a blue helmet on every un occupied roof monitoring the movement of hamas?

 

[Transcend]

They UN isn't there to keep the peace or even observe in this case, they are there to deliver food to a starving population. Israel has exact GPS coordinates of all UN locations inside Gaza. They have managed to hit them what, 3 times now?

Absolutely pathetic. There is collateral damage, and then there is wanton disregard for anything but your own "objectives".

To be clear, I can understand some shrapnel flying around from attacking 2 buildings over or something, but actually shelling the UN aid compound is reprehensible.

 

[Samirol]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/15/world/middleeast/15fatah.html?hp

NY Times reports that as more bombs fall, more people support Hamas. Al Jazeera is also reporting the same thing.

 

[rockwool]

The Israelis aren't using it on people though.

They are using it on Arabs. And not just normal Arabs that we sometimes like (because they have oil); they are using it on the n****r of the Arab world, so they know they have carte blanche to do whatever the hell they want.

You're wrong, they're only using it on Hamas. It's not Israels fault that Hamas has taped their kids on as 2x35kg bulletproof vests. That's the main purpose of them having large families, y'know.

to be clear: i don't for a second believe the un is complicit in any acts perpetrated by hamas.

i also do not believe they have the intelligence gathering of an orbiting drone (like israel does). can you picture a blue helmet on every un occupied roof monitoring the movement of hamas?

We're talking about an area of a school yard here, the head master can whip his cane all over its perimeter without having to rise from his desk. And yeah, that is exactly why the Israelis don't want the blue helmets in the whole of Gaza/Palestine, because then all disputes would be beyond issue of complaint. Nobody doubted the word of the UN in Bosnia, and likewise Israel would have its ass handed to it self for its actions.

I highly doubt the UN is allowing Hamas to use it's HQ in Gaza as a base of operations. Give me a break.

Israel is despicable. Hopefully this crap will make the rest of the world rethink the aid (specifically financially and militarily) that they give to Israel.

A UN embargo of Israel economicly and culturally is the only right thing to do here. Bombing them into compliance would then be unneeded, even though that that would be the only way to make them realize a wee bit of what the Palestinians are going through; what living in fear and in the shadow of death constantly really means.

 

[rockwool]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/15/world/middleeast/15fatah.html?hp

NY Times reports that as more bombs fall, more people support Hamas. Al Jazeera is also reporting the same thing.

Not only, but the Israelis have now done what they the least wanted of all things, to unite the Palestinian factions in their resistance...

 

[$tinkle]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/15/world/middleeast/15fatah.html?hp

NY Times reports that as more bombs fall, more people support Hamas. Al Jazeera is also reporting the same thing.

kinda like that scene in fight club where tyler durden won't stay down?

Not only, but the Israelis have now done what they the least wanted of all things, to unite the Palestinian factions in their resistance...

wtf are you on about? Fatah, Hamas split widens amid Gaza war

 

[Transcend]

I don't think he means the divide between Fatah and Hamas. I think he means the divide between everyday palestinians and Hamas. I do not doubt at all that Israel's behaviour has created many more militant Hamas supporters than they have ever had before.

Hamas, as insane as they are, are attempting to, in their eyes, defend Palestine. They are also the party that provides schools, hospitals and the like for Palestinians when no one else will or can.

I would hazard a guess that Hamas will come out of this more powerful and militant than ever with a near limitless supply of martyrs.

 

[$tinkle]

I would hazard a guess that Hamas will come out of this more powerful and militant than ever with a near limitless supply of martyrs.

speaking of martyrs: Hamas confirms Israel strike killed security chief

not sure i would consider his replacement to be sane, as he'd have a huge target on his back, and israel has demonstrated they'll take out a family to get a big fish like this.

 

[Samirol]

speaking of martyrs: Hamas confirms Israel strike killed security chief

not sure i would consider his replacement to be sane, as he'd have a huge target on his back, and israel has demonstrated they'll take out a family to get a big fish like this.

they've proved they will take out families just for the hell of it

 

[$tinkle]

hey, if they don't use the bombs allocated by us for FY09, we'll just hold back next year

 

[rockwool]

wtf are you on about? Fatah, Hamas split widens amid Gaza war

Like Transcend noted the people are comming together, but not only them as in Gaza the fighters of Hamas, Fatah's Al Aqsa Brigades, Islamic Jihad's equivalent, and Abu Ali's Mustapha Martyrs Brigade have united forces, and God bless their souls as unity is imperative, it's the one and single most important thing.

Pointing towards the corrupted leaders of Fatah and saying "look!", is to not acknowledge/fail to analyze correctly (unlike Transcend that's done a correct analysis below) that exactly that is what made them lose the last elections to Hamas.

I don't think he means the divide between Fatah and Hamas. I think he means the divide between everyday palestinians and Hamas. I do not doubt at all that Israel's behaviour has created many more militant Hamas supporters than they have ever had before.

Hamas, as insane as they are, are attempting to, in their eyes, defend Palestine. They are also the party that provides schools, hospitals and the like for Palestinians when no one else will or can.

I would hazard a guess that Hamas will come out of this more powerful and militant than ever with a near limitless supply of martyrs.

I agree, no doubt Hamas will gain more than they will lose, and looking at the quote below it backs your beliefs.

"Multiple studies have shown that if you take two mammals, say rats, and put them in boxes side by side, then give the first one electric shocks, the reaction of the second one -- in terms of brain-wave and nervous-system activity -- will be identical," says Stephen Zawistowski, a certified applied animal behaviorist and an executive vice president of the ASPCA. "The trauma isn't limited to the animal that's experiencing the pain."

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/magazine/12/22/vick.dogs/

No doubt, the Israelis are a very well educated people and sertainly are aware of the psychology they're creating with their actions. Still, they're sadistic enough to continue.

they've proved they will take out families just for the hell of it

I laughed when reading this. But it was not funny at second thought.

 

[Defenestrated]

Israel is what terrorism looks like when it has access to a modern military.

 

[Spero]

 

[Upgr8r]

Now they are against OJ Simpson

 

[Samirol]

the zionist part scribbled in is the best part

 

[ohio]

Still, they're sadistic enough to continue.

This is not constructive. I picked this quote out specifically but this thread is rife with dismissals from both sides that the other side is evil, no better than animals, etc. You don't have to agree with their actions, but until you understand the root of them, the situation they feel like they're in, this debate is going nowhere, not in our little sandbox, nor in the real one.

 

[rockwool]

This is not constructive. I picked this quote out specifically but this thread is rife with dismissals from both sides that the other side is evil, no better than animals, etc. You don't have to agree with their actions, but until you understand the root of them, the situation they feel like they're in, this debate is going nowhere, not in our little sandbox, nor in the real one.

No it's not constructive but that wasn't its purpose. These are evil acts and should be seen as such, the extent of them makes it even more important to show ones rejection of them and what they truly are. If we want to understand the root of them, or the P side maybe we should sit down and talk about what their respective goals are.

Blaming fear from persecution of being Jesus killers, and before that because of being the chosen people, do not justify their actions, give them impunity, nor should we be silent in shame because of these things. We have taken a clear stance against those actions. Continuously saying "zey chate us" is sertainly going to have an effect on their collective psychology. I'm convinced that these things are being used for a greater purpose. Israels end aims are to create a Grossdeutchland by terror and extermination so that the Gazans will relocate to Egypt, and the WB Palestinians to Jordan.

This debate is going somewhere because we aren't shutting up and resorting into being spectators of holocaust the sequel. Fear in it self isn't a reason enough for this. I have seen sadism in some faces (just like nazis many times have been portrayed), and I recognize it from life.
I welcome that we sit down and precent our thoughts of what the respective sides part stage and final objectives are.

 

[blue]

This is not constructive. I picked this quote out specifically but this thread is rife with dismissals from both sides that the other side is evil, no better than animals, etc. You don't have to agree with their actions, but until you understand the root of them, the situation they feel like they're in, this debate is going nowhere, not in our little sandbox, nor in the real one.

What more can you say when you look at raw casualty numbers?

 

[Defenestrated]

Killing 1050 people (including 300 kids) to avenge the deaths of 15 people is something I would venture to call sadistic.

That's just me.