[rockwool]

The 9/11 Commission doesn't go into WTC 7, but that is another example of misleading by Zeitgeist. If Zeitgeist was concerned about being accurate, they would say "The 9/11 Commission didn't go into WTC 7 in detail."

A lot of the conspiracy of WTC 7 originates from the FEMA report, and when it was looked at NIST researchers, it was found that the FEMA report underestimated the damage done by a large margin.

There was actual, physical damage, Shyam Sunder of the NIST says:

"On about a third of the face to the center and to the bottom — approximately 10 stories — about 25 percent of the depth of the building was scooped out."

Also, because the building was unusually built, each column was carrying a larger than normal load.

There was also a massive fire, and the combination of the physical stresses caused it to fall. There wasn't any firefighting, as you know.

Your whole post is jibberish, very unlike you. In essence, wich is everything, saying "not even mentioned" is correct.

If the 9/11 Commission was conserned about truth, i.e. didn't have anything to hide, they would have incuded 7WTC in the Report.

That's final.

Tinfoil hats have officially been donned in this thread. This thread has now reached it's logical conclusion. Way to go, nutters.

You're absolutely right, we should get back to where this thread was before it derailed; the objectives of Israel and their value of human life.

 

[ohio]

You're absolutely right, we should get back to where this thread was before it derailed; the objectives of Israel and their value of human life.

On topic, and somewhat in contradiction to what you may expect given my earlier comments, I discovered a wonderful rhetorical for those that claim Israel does care about the Palestinians, but because Hamas shelters among innocents, all of the collateral damage is Hamas's fault rather than Israel's...

"If those innocents were Israeli or American, would Israel have launched the same strikes in the same way?"

(To be clear, the my earlier argument is that Israeli's HAVE dehumanized Palestinians, but they are not seeking to eradicate them, nor do they take any kind of sadistic pleasure in this process.)

 

[$tinkle]

"If those innocents were Israeli or American, would Israel have launched the same strikes in the same way?"

you have correctly chosen the subjunctive case ("...were..."), which clearly shows even you know this is purely speculative, hypothetical, and unreasonable.

like asking "would Silver's head explode if he accepted my invitation to attend church?"

 

[Samirol]

you have correctly chosen the subjunctive case ("...were..."), which clearly shows even you know this is purely speculative, hypothetical, and unreasonable.

like asking "would Silver's head explode if he accepted my invitation to attend church?"

It is a valid point, Israelis don't value Palestinian life

 

[ohio]

which clearly shows even you know this is purely speculative, hypothetical, and unreasonable.

rhetorical, yes.
speculative, sort of irrelevent.
hypothetical, yes.
unreasonable, why?

The question forces the hand of whether Palestinian civilians are viewed (and valued) as human beings. If they are, the proportion of collateral damage cannot be shrugged onto Hamas's use of human shields (or essentially hostages). If they are viewed as human beings, then the unfortunate reality is that use of human shields wins the immediate battle (not the war), and you are forced to hold off until a more surgical opportunity is presented or created.

We do not kill hostages in order to take out terrorists, even high value ones. We only take down hostages if it saves more lives than it ends (see United flight 93).

Take the high-value example of Bin Laden. Were he holed up in a hospital or school, how many Afghani or Palestinian civilians is it acceptable to kill along with him? And that is for a high-value target.

 

[$tinkle]

i s'pose, as an american, if i had been jihading all over the star of david for a few yrs that perhaps israel's charitable view of me would be sullied. that is to say, i don't believe jew babies pop out of the womb eager to suck the blood curdled from the teet of palis, but of their mother (i'm calling a moratorium on 'any port in a storm' for now).

same for the other side. hate is learned. yeah, fvcking deep, right?

 

[Samirol]

Most Palestinians don't hate Israel, they just want peace. The vast majority are moderates that just want to have basic amenities and not have to worry about bombs dropping on their house.

Considering the massive support that the Gaza campaign got, I can't say the same about the Jewish population of Israel.

The vast majority of Gazans don't want war, the vast majority of Jewish Israelis do. It isn't their fault really, Israel is damn good at propaganda.

Article on Israeli support for the invasion: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1055564.html

Almost three weeks after the beginning of Operation Cast Lead and less than a month before the Knesset elections, a Haaretz-Dialog poll shows widespread public support for the Gaza campaign. Less than 10 percent see the operation as a "failure."

...

Despite pictures from Gaza depicting massive destruction and a large number of wounded and killed, including women and children, 82 percent of the public believe that Israel has not "gone too far" with the military force it is exercising against Hamas.

This means that almost all Israel's Jewish citizens warmly support the operation, its goals, firepower and management.

 

[Defenestrated]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/sVvtIS2YGVI&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/sVvtIS2YGVI&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

 

[Silver]

like asking "would Silver's head explode if he accepted my invitation to attend church?"

I'm going to decline. I know that's code for "Hey, let's get some meth and massage oil and go for a weekend out of town without the wives to talk about Jesus and his beautiful circumcised cock."

I'm not falling for that one again...

 

[$tinkle]

interesting tidbits: UN says Hamas seized Gaza food aid and blankets

A U.N. spokesman says Hamas police in Gaza have seized thousands of blankets and food parcels meant for needy residents.

Spokesman Christopher Gunness says Hamas police raided a U.N. warehouse in Gaza City on Tuesday evening. He says police snatched 3,500 blankets and more than 400 food parcels.

The aid is vital now because Gazans are facing hardship after Israel's three-week military offensive against Hamas.

Hamas has ruled Gaza since it seized control of the territory in 2007. Gunness said Wednesday this is the first time Hamas has seized U.N. aid.

Israeli officials have charged that the militant group routinely confiscates supplies meant for needy Gazans.

A Hamas government spokesman was not immediately available for comment.

after all, it's not polite to talk w/ your mouth full

and then: UN retracts claim strike hit Gaza school

The United Nations has retracted a claim that an Israeli strike which killed more than 40 people in northern Gaza city of Jabaliya last month hit a school run by a UN agency.

"The humanitarian coordinator would like to clarify that the shelling, and all of the fatalities, took place outside rather than inside the school," the UN Office for the Co-ordination of Humanitarian Affairs said in its latest weekly update on the situation in Gaza.

It stressed that its initial report of the January 6 incident correctly stated that Israeli shells hit outside the school run by the UN agency for Palestinian refugees UNRWA, but that it later referred to "the shelling of the UNRWA school in Jabaliya."

and last: Fatah publishes names of 181 claimed killed, shot or maimed by de facto government forces in Gaza

Ramallah – Ma’an – A senior leader within Fatah slammed what he called “Hamas crimes against patriotic people” in the Gaza Strip Monday.

The comments come after a string of reports of human rights violations committed by Palestinians against Palestinians in the Gaza Strip during the Israeli war on Gaza.

The Undersecretary of the caretaker government’s Ministry of Prisoners Affairs Ziyad Abu Ein spoke out against the rights violations and accused Hamas of “terrorism,” and said they were preventing media outlets in Gaza report on their crimes.

“Our people badly need a free press capable of protecting the truth,” he said, noting that the truth was all that could counter the “terrorist procedures against patriotic Palestinians.”

crimes against humanity indeed

 

[Samirol]

They still took out a Red Cross hospital and WP'd a refugee camp.

They still shelled an area directly outside a school and killed many civilians, I don't see how that is acceptable. I believe the articles that we posted earlier in the thread said that it hit near the school, not hit it directly.

Fatah are trying to regain political power, because they significantly lost support during invasion. If there is an independent agency that can verify their claims, that is one thing, but I doubt you would trust Hamas if they published a list similar to Fatah's.

 

[$tinkle]

i'm not posting to excuse other actions they've taken, but trying to give accurate reports (admittedly, fatah isn't as unbiased as u.n.). recall upthread israel was decried at being "good at propaganda"?

and i would trust hamas just as much as i would trust fatah if they weren't in power.

 

[Samirol]

i'm not posting to excuse other actions they've taken, but trying to give accurate reports (admittedly, fatah isn't as unbiased as u.n.). recall upthread israel was decried at being "good at propaganda"?

and i would trust hamas just as much as i would trust fatah if they weren't in power.

Ah, I thought you were trying to say that Israel's actions aren't evil when you said "crimes against humanity indeed"

When Olmert says that the goals are to end Hamas and end rocket attacks, and neither of those happen, yet the Israeli people consider the attacks a success, then that is damn fine propaganda.

 

[ohio]

interesting tidbits: UN says Hamas seized Gaza food aid and blanketsafter all, it's not polite to talk w/ your mouth full

and then: UN retracts claim strike hit Gaza schooland last: Fatah publishes names of 181 claimed killed, shot or maimed by de facto government forces in Gazacrimes against humanity indeed

But that's exactly it. If all of the above is true (and I'm sure it's as true as any news coming out of Gaza), then Hamas is defeating themselves. The moment their theft, oppression, and use of Gazans as hostages becomes worse than the treatment Gazans receive from Israel, Hamas begins their decline from significance.

 

[$tinkle]

Ah, I thought you were trying to say that Israel's actions aren't evil when you said "crimes against humanity indeed"

insofar as negligent homicide is evil

When Olmert says that the goals are to end Hamas and end rocket attacks, and neither of those happen, yet the Israeli people consider the attacks a success, then that is damn fine propaganda.

as there are degrees of evil (see above), i assume there are degrees of success.

we just olmert to pose in front of a tank, with a bombed out refugee camp in the background, all under the banner: "mission accomplished"

 

[Secret Squirrel]

insofar as negligent homicide is evil
as there are degrees of evil (see above), i assume there are degrees of success.

we just olmert to pose in front of a tank, with a bombed out refugee camp in the background, all under the banner: "mission accomplished"

That's what any good leader would do...

 

[ohio]

insofar as negligent homicide is evil
as there are degrees of evil (see above), i assume there are degrees of success.

I shouldn't need to point out that both are on spectra with their opposites.

At some point on the spectrum Evil outweighs Good.

and...

At some point on the spectrum Failure outweighs Success.

 

[Samirol]

insofar as negligent homicide is evil

"I drop bombs in areas where there are massive amounts of civilians, it isn't my fault if they kill civilians!"

Stinkle, what would you consider success? Hamas gained popularity, far less Palestinians think peace is an option, there are still tons of tunnels open, rocket attacks haven't slowed down, and Fatah is hemorrhaging support. In the beginning, they defined what success would be, and none of their goals even came close to being complete, it was a failure by any objective standards.

What it DID do is kill a bunch of Palestinians, which I guess makes this a wildly successful campaign.

 

[Defenestrated]

interesting tidbits: UN says Hamas seized Gaza food aid and blanketsafter all, it's not polite to talk w/ your mouth full

and then: UN retracts claim strike hit Gaza schooland last: Fatah publishes names of 181 claimed killed, shot or maimed by de facto government forces in Gazacrimes against humanity indeed

So what you are saying is the worse Hamas is the more acceptable Israel's actions are?

They killed innocent people man.

Palestinian Ministry of Health (MoH) figures as of 31 January are 1,380 Palestinians dead, of whom 431 are children and 112 are women. This number does not include those who have died due to lack of access to regular health care (including obstetric care and treatment for chronic diseases). The number of injuries stands at 5,380, of whom 1,872 are children and 800 are women.

http://www.ochaopt.org/gazacrisis/admin/output/files/ocha_opt_gaza_humanitarian_situation_report_2009_02_02_english.pdf

 

[ohio]

They killed innocent people man.

Innocent my ass, those jerks gave me the worst paper cut.

 

[Samirol]

Polls have found staggering levels of support for driving Palestinians out of the occupied territories (46%), and 76% of Jewish Israelis say they would support expelling the Israeli Arab population.

 

[Defenestrated]

Those devils.

 

[dante]

Jeez... I wasn't about to believe that without a source, and sure enough found it in Haaretz:

http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=140196&contrassID=2&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0

 

[Defenestrated]

You know who else wanted to remove an ethnic group from their population?

Yeah that's right Godwin's Law.

 

[$tinkle]

The United Nations is ready to address Hamas&#8217;s use of children as human shields during last month&#8217;s IDF offensive in Gaza, the UN special representative for children and armed conflict told The Jerusalem Post on Thursday.

&#8220;We have not yet dealt directly with the human shield issue, but we will now mention it in our reports,&#8221; Radhika Coomaraswamy said in an exclusive interview following a four-day visit to the region.

&#8220;It is still very difficult for us to say that it was actually happening and we still need to conduct a full investigation into what exactly took place... but we are not denying that it happened; it is absolutely possible that Hamas was using its civilians as human shields,&#8221; she said.

jpost

 

[Samirol]

jpost

So you posted an article saying that the UN doesn't know yet if Hamas was using civilians as human shields, and when pressed if they were, said "maybe so maybe no"?

Even if you made the argument that government buildings and police stations are in civilian areas, isn't the standard protocol not to level the entire area with bombs?

 

[$tinkle]

wow. how many hours of yoga a day do you do to be able to contort yourself out of reality? i bet gun to your head you'd still defend any & every action put forth by hamas & give them full enjoyment of presumption of innocence to the exclusion of all others. isn't this the very attitude of zionists you decry?

'bout time to change your avatar, unless you're going for the ironic stone-headedness, which would be quite witty of you

 

[Samirol]

so do you believe this is a balanced account?

You said this when I posted how the UN General Assembly President said that Israel commits crimes against humanity, and I'm the one that is twisting reality because the UN is saying that Hamas might be using civilians as human shields?

 

[?????]

What is the solution to a nagging mosquito... you smash it.

Problem solved.

 

[Samirol]

What is the solution to a nagging mosquito... you smash it.

Problem solved.

Congrats you have the same understanding of international politics that 4 year olds do

 

[?????]

Congrats you have the same understanding of international politics that 4 year olds do

Ha... don't you think that if there was a reasonable solution out there that this problem would be over. I can guarantee you that there are other things that Israel would rather do than defend itself year in and year out.

 

[MikeD]

I shouldn't need to point out that both are on spectra with their opposites.

At some point on the spectrum Evil outweighs Good.

and...

At some point on the spectrum Failure outweighs Success.

Don't forget, however, that Good is Dumb.

 

[Defenestrated]

You said this when I posted how the UN General Assembly President said that Israel commits crimes against humanity, and I'm the one that is twisting reality because the UN is saying that Hamas might be using civilians as human shields?

Moreover, earlier was stinkle implying that killing children is okay if they are in use as human shields?

 

[$tinkle]

Congrats you have the same understanding of international politics that 4 year olds do

i don't think he was putting forth a political solution

Moreover, earlier was stinkle implying that killing children is okay if they are in use as human shields?

nope, and the blood is on hamas' hands

 

[Defenestrated]

If killing children is not okay even when they are being used as shields then Israel is still terrible.

It must be comforting to think that every child Israel has killed was close to a Hamas fighter, and it's that type of thinking that desperately tries to rationalizes terrible things.

 

[$tinkle]

then the same goes for us.

come to think of it: i can't name one military in recent history that can be immune from this charge in any major conflict.

therefore: killing babies is ok, as long as you can reasonably assert they're going to be troublesome later in life. not a very original thought, and most recently put forth by steven levitt

 

[Defenestrated]

then the same goes for us.

come to think of it: i can't name one military in recent history that can be immune from this charge in any major conflict.

Exactly and that is why war is social injustice.

 

[Samirol]

then the same goes for us.

come to think of it: i can't name one military in recent history that can be immune from this charge in any major conflict.

It is almost like all wars done by a military in recent history are immoral and shouldn't be done

 

[?????]

Speaking of babies, does anyone else think the octupussy has nice lips?

http://www.jossip.com/how-much-nbc-paid-octuplet-mom-nadya-suleman-for-her-today-interview-20090206/
...could shed a few pounds, but she did just have 8 kids.

 

[$tinkle]

It is almost like all wars done by a military in recent history are immoral and shouldn't be done

so when does the line cross from "moral" pin-point pursuit of 'mercan enemies intent on attacking us (either w/ or w/o consent of u.n. or host country) to an "immoral" war?

not-so-oddly relevent to this thread