Palistine is not a nation according to whom? According to them they are a country fighting for Palestine, and Israel does not exist. Don't be to quick to label people as terrorist, one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter and a soldier. Both have the power to fix the situation them selfs, therefore both carry the responsibility to fix the situation equally.
Israel's Crimes Against Humanity
- Thread starter Samirol
- Start date
Again, your reading comprehension fails you.
The NATION of Palestine is not attacking Israel. Terrorists are. The NATION of Israel IS attacking Palestinian civilians.
Your "definitions" mean nothing. The Israeli organized, state-run military is attacking Palestinian civilians. This isn't the case for Palestinians. It doesn't matter what you call them, they are not a state organized Military. They are an extremist faction.
The onus is on Israel, a nation, to not stoop to the level of terrorists, which is exactly what they are doing by attacking civilians who cannot flee.
Keep up.
Semantics, and you know it, you know the powers that be in Palestine fully fund and support said terrorists.
No, that's simply your bias showing through.
Hamas may be a political party now, but it is a terrorist organization at heart. There is effectively no "government" going on there. They aren't state funded. They are a terrorist faction and nothing more.
The Palestinian people are paying the price for a bunch of extremists. One more time, Israel is a nation. It is up to them to step up. No one expects the terrorists to.
Anyways, I am done. Your bias makes it impossible to even discuss this issue with you.
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Hamas was democratically elected, while they are not effective, they are the group chosen by the Palestinian people, and therefore I consider them to be the government.
They had the choice of Hamas or Fatah. Both terrorist groups. That isn't really a choice now is it? Both have always been, and always will be, terrorist groups not political parties. No amount of posturing will get them legitimization.
There were 1.8 million eligible voters and 775,146 votes were cast. That helps show that more than 50% of palestinians clearly knew that either choice was a choice for violence.
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Maybe the Palestinians should have put forth a party that wasn't a terrorist organization....
And instantly be murdered and have their families murdered by either of the other 2 parties. Sounds like a plan.
They are in a desperate situation (no food, no water, no power, no escape) due to Israel. Israel has to make the first move.
I bet you'd be pretty pissed off if the world decided the best chance for peace was to wall off israel completely, cut off all access to the outside, salt the earth and then start attacking your family and friends with smart bombs from 30 000 feet.
Seems like history is repeating itself, but from a different angle...
There is a difference though...Hamas does a much better job of providing services than Fatah does. Fatah seemed to be a bit better at diverting money into the big guys bank accounts than anything else.
Hamas is, in addition to being a terrorist group, a legitimate provider of social services.
If there was a party looking to compromise, Israel would have made damn sure that nothing happened to them.(though they would have little chance of legitimacy)
This is the last time I'm going to say it, childish blame games are dumb, you need to accept that both sides play a very big part in this conflict (not the Palestinians and Israelis the Arab world and Israelis the Palestinians are just the bitch of the whole situation, who get screwed over by both sides) and I am calling on both sides to do something to solve it. You are trying to justify Palestine's actions as being heroic resistance to the evil oppressor in Israel. Both sides do wrong, every one should be held to the same standards and killing should not be tolerated from either side. What you need to do is look at WHY they are mad and HOW we can fix it. Instead of playing to blame game try and understand what both sides have to say and see when they are coming from.
The Palestinian situation gets a lot of young men riled up and ready to fight, but the only way the overall Arab world could solve this would be an invasion of Israel. Israel is the one pulling the trigger, not the Arab world. Egypt could do more, but Israeli-Egyptian relations would take a massive hit. Israel doesn't want the Gaza strip, it is a money pit full of radicals, and Egypt doesn't want it either.
You are deflecting blame when one side is clearly the one that is dropping bombs killing hundreds of people.
You are deflecting blame when one side is clearly the one that is dropping bombs killing hundreds of people.
Israel did make the first move, they unilaterally withdrew from the Gaza Strip last year. What happened? More rocket attacks. The borders are only closed due to said rocket attacks.
So what, exactly, is your solution? Free and open borders with Egypt to bring in whatever they want? That happened with the smuggling tunnels and note the explosives and rocket fuel that were brought in. Open borders with Israel so that workers can work in Israel? Tried that, suicide bombers targeted the crossings. Unilaterally pull out of the Gaza, allowing Palestinians to control, down to the exact meter, the entire area left after the 1948 war? Did that already (aside from the border crossing with Egypt, in an attempt to prevent smuggling tunnels).
Israel's not blameless, and they're doing a LOT of things that are prolonging this confrontation (like settlements, checkpoints, a security wall that cuts 100% through Palestinian territory, knocking down the houses of suicide bombers, etc), but since Israel left Gaza there has been zero cooperation from the other side. As long as Israel was still in Gaza, there was the reasoning that the Palestinians were reacting out of being controlled by Israel, and that the settlements, checkpoints, etc were causing the hatred and prolonging the conflict. Well, Palestinians in Gaza don't have that excuse anymore. So why the daily rocket attacks that are causing Israel to shut the borders?
And lastly, what information did you find Frasier that led you to think that Israel unilaterally broke the truce? The best I could find was 6 days after the truce began Israel started closing the border in response to IJ rocket attacks.
A Swedish military officer (those are known rightwingers and US lovers) spoke as an expert on national radio and called those rockets for resembling more towards fireworks than artillery rockets. The female prime minister (?) of Israel was just now on radio saying that they've been bombed with up to 80 rockets per day. No dead israeli casualties. I'd love to see the US deploy these rockets instead of SPH's and MLRS in Iraq.
So the Palestinian body count for yesterday is 500 wounded, mostly women and children, and 100 killed, mostly male police officers, and that was only in one of the three hospitals in Gaza. Why don't the Israelis apply the same respons to the Palestinan actions; bomb them back with those lethal Qassam (sp?) rockets.
So the Palestinian body count for yesterday is 500 wounded, mostly women and children, and 100 killed, mostly male police officers, and that was only in one of the three hospitals in Gaza. Why don't the Israelis apply the same respons to the Palestinan actions; bomb them back with those lethal Qassam (sp?) rockets.
Israel controls Gazan airspace, controls their sea access, controls Gaza's borders and trade, and controls whether or not they get their own tax revenue. The Gaza strip is not independent, it is basically a walled off ghetto with an elected government that can't do much. Israel blocks humanitarian aid, including that from the U.N.
This article references the November 4th attack when Israel went into Gaza and killed a few people
http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSTRE4AE1MV20081116
This article references the November 4th attack when Israel went into Gaza and killed a few people
http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSTRE4AE1MV20081116
CNN is reporting 277 killed, hundreds more wounded.
I don't follow, even your article says that Israel was responding to rocket attacks...
It's relatively simple, as long as Palestinians are continuing to fire rockets and mortars across the border, Israel's going to retaliate. If the Palestinians want the border reopened, stop firing rockets. I'm just amazed that of all the crimes that Israel *is* committing (Annexing East Jerusalem, erecting settlements and checkpoints in the WB), people are getting upset by Israel reacting to rocket attacks. If NYers were launching rockets into downtown Montreal, and the US Gov't did absolutely nothing (or was even helping assemble and launch the rockets), I highly doubt Canadians would be talking about how pretty the fireworks were...
Interesting link on Al Jazeera: http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2008/12/2008122813459308175.html
I am not at all deflecting the blame to one responsible side. You just have the sides wrong, it isn't the Palestinians Vs the Israelis its the Arab world Vs the Israelis. The Palestinians are the victim, and whats happening to the is horrible, but not entirely Israel's fault. Israel tries to give gaza to egypt and the wes bank to jordan, why should it be all on Israel to deal with these territories? You are right in that Palistine is the victim, but you also refuse to acknowledge the fact that they make the situation a whole lot worse for themselves by doing things like launching rockets into Israel and electing terrorists to run there country. You are oversimplifying a very complicated issues with allot more going on than just the Israelis and Palestinians. The Arab world is doing everything it can to treat the Palestinians like utter **** and then go blame it on Israel to make them look bad, its absolutely despicable.
And try reading my posts a little harder. You are ignoring one of my key points, If this was an Israeli-Palestinian conflict yes you would be right, but it's NOT. It is an Arab-Israeli conflict, and when you look at it that way the whole situation changes. The Palestinians are just the most violent manifestation of the conflict right now. The Arabs treat them like **** and don't want to deal with the, forcing Israel to deal with it. Now Israel has to deal with a country who's populace wants there country destroyed, and a populace who has been fed all sorts of propaganda (by there Arab brothers who seem to care so much for them) that this is all the Israelis fault. You seem to miss the fact that I have stated, several times, that the Palestinians are in fact the victim of this situation, I just believe the greater Arab world has allot to do with the situation, as well as the Arabs.
But again like I said to trancend, why don't you try and have some understanding of both sides, look at what there doing and why there doing it and try to see if there is a possible solution.
The issue is not that Israel is responding to attacks at all. It's that their response does not meet any measure of proportionality. Someone kills one in months, Israel kills hundreds in days. It's not retaliation or defense- that is vengeance. Politics aside, blame aside- no country should be allowed to kill and wound hundreds with no apparent discrimination.
The Israeli government has a stated policy of, you hit us, we hit you back 10 fold. Right or wrong, that is what they have stated, and demonstrated they will do. If the Palestinians were wise they would stop launching rockets into Israel, blame aside, it would do them tons of good.
and now egypt as joined the fray: Egyptians open fire on Palestinians
and oh yeah, let's not forget the best weapon in war, propaganda: photos of tragedy, including this one:
see the kids on the stretcher? that's totally natural, having 3 uninjured kids on one stretcher next to an injured guy.
those damn dirty jooz
lulz
and oh yeah, let's not forget the best weapon in war, propaganda: photos of tragedy, including this one:
see the kids on the stretcher? that's totally natural, having 3 uninjured kids on one stretcher next to an injured guy.
those damn dirty jooz
Egyptians opened fire on fleeing Palestinians?
That sh!t is cold.
That sh!t is cold.
Does this mean I win???
lolololollololol stupid arabs got in the way of israeli bombs
no, it just means that Egypt sucks, but that doesn't take away any of the blame from Israel. Most of your posting has centered around not blaming Egypt enough, when Israel is the one dropping the bombs. Yes, what Egypt is doing is screwed up, but by getting distracted by Egypt, you are putting less focus on Israel.
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You like to ignore me, I have clearly stated that I place the blame on BOTH sides. You state why Israel is bad and why the Palestinians are good, I very often times agree with you. You just seem to think I'm some Zionist pig who advocates death to all Arabs. I am simply pointing out that some of the blame lies on the Arabs shoulders.
lolololollololol stupid arabs got in the way of israeli bombs
no, it just means that Egypt sucks, but that doesn't take away any of the blame from Israel. You focus your blame on the Arab world while acknowledging what Israel does, when Israel is the root cause.
Oh, and I do win, I have been saying Egypt (along with the rest of the "arab") side is causing problems.
Oh and what ever sick point you are trying to make with the bloodied up guy, a human life is a human life no matter Israeli or Palestinian. One life lost is one to many on either side, my main concern is how to solve the conflict. Your main concern seems to be proving that the Palestinians are right and have the moral high ground in this seeming endless war. If it continues the way you seem to be advocating, this is only going to end with a whole lot more dead people. The one fact you cannot and will not argue with me is that it is clear that Israel can and will win the war. If things go the way you seem to want them to it's ultimately going to get a whole lot worse for the Palestinians.
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Fair enough, but it is wrong. It is morally unacceptable to make and act on such threats of force, especially when Israel is clearly killing many civillians in its attacks.
Agreed, the Israelis are CLEARLY killing way to many people in retaliation. As one nation attacking another, Israel does have the right to appropriately defend themselves. Going in and taking out hesbola leaders and operatives is one thing, killing hundreds of civilians is murder.
Actually, collective punishment is a war crime, I believe. Not that the Geneva Conventions mean anything unless you're on the losing end, of course...
do you agree firing rockets into civilian areas with no strategical value other than spreading fear and killing whatever possible, for the perceived hostile actions of its government is a war crime?
now why would he do that?
Yes, of course it is a war crime, but they have killed far less people than Israel's war crimes. Israel's war crimes are exponentially worse, and they are the ones doing the oppressing.
I'm on the side of the oppressed, what Israel is doing is completely ridiculous and unjustifiable.
edit: The rockets are basically fireworks, they do very little damage
The civilian Palestinians are not a nation with an army, they are not on the same level as the Israel. Palestine is the 21st century Warsaw Ghetto, not a sovereign nation. Hamas and Islamic Jihad do terrible things, but not nearly on the same scale as Israel.
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Most Palestinians just want to live their lives on their land in peace. Tough concept I know...
Sure. I'm hardly a defender of Hamas. Although, legally, they may have a loophole since they aren't a state, are they?
However, this isn't a zero tolerance schoolyard where when a bully takes 25 punches at a little kid being held down by the bully's goons and the little kid gets one pop in, we suspend them both for 10 days, is it? How many people have those deadly rockets killed, anyways?
Before I hold both sides to account equally I'd like to fund both sides with the same amount of military and weapons technology...that would be fun, wouldn't it?
So were you on the Israeli side until 67' when they gained the upper hand in the region?
If you were on the side of the oppressed you would want the fighting to stop, you seem to want the Palestinians to keep fighting.
You are right, Israel and Palestine are not on the same level, you would think the Palestinians would have enough sense to not launch dumb rockets into Israel knowing full well that they are going to retaliate with a couple F16 and some special forces raids. There is the right or wrong thing to do, and sometimes there is the smart and dumb thing to do. While I completely agree with you that the Palestinians are the victim, they sure do a whole lot to make the situation worse. On the flip side of that, I do think Israel's use of force is inappropriate and tantamount to murder, they need to be using special forces units to go in and take out Hamas leaders
What happens when the little kid walks up and punches the bully in the back of the head first, what is the bully going to do, right or wrong it's not smart for the little kid to go punch the bully in the back of the head.
We are sending both sides almost an equal amount of military tech, bush sold BILLIONs in arms, to Syria, Jordan, and Egypt.
can I fire them at *your* house then, since they're only "fireworks"? I'm sure you wouldn't mind since they do very little damage.
EPIC FAIL.
Go back and read my analogy again. You've obviously misunderestimated it.
Not true, most Palestinians want Israel destroyed.
i dont think things are supposed to be "you kill 10 of my own, i get to kill 10 of yours". threats to a nation safety are to be taken care, and cannot be restrained to "i only get to kill 10, because thats the number i lost" if there continues to exist a threat, or lack of truce.
thats not an argument, but an emotional response. plus, i doubt people who get to watch the fireworks firsthand would agree on that.
well, if you dont have the money to cash a check, then you better not write one. not having an organized, uniformed and legally recognized army (which is different than not having an army at all) does not give you a carte blanche to do crazy stuff.
and the comparison is ridiculous, the poles and jews didnt go to war with germany in the hopes of driving them to the sea, didnt refuse their right to exist, and werent the byproduct of a lost war.
plus, they werent hijacking germans or launching rockets ot having a paramilitary against germany.
they were plain civilians targeted for being jews and poles.
palestinians arent targeteed because they are muslim or because they are palestinians, their organization is being targeted because they go ape-**** crazy on their own against a neighbouring nation.