[$tinkle]

I've only seen the IDF claim that they were studying explosives technology there, and I don't trust anything the IDF says. If you or they can provide some evidence besides their word, then I would reconsider my position.

so they claim the israelis targeted the women's wing (there is none - this is a lie), and the israelis have on multiple previous occasions recovered rockets from the building, but you hold fast that israel must be lying? furthermore, the uni was abandoned days earlier, in anticipation of an air strike. could you be any more naive to assume now this place of "higher learning" was above board?

back on the topic of shooting civilians, especially palestinians: nytimes

On Monday, Dr. Ashour was not the only official in charge. Armed Hamas militants in civilian clothes roamed the halls. Asked their function, they said it was to provide security. But there was internal bloodletting under way.

In the fourth-floor orthopedic section, a woman in her late 20s asked a militant to let her see Saleh Hajoj, her 32-year-old husband. She was turned away and left the hospital. Fifteen minutes later, Mr. Hajoj was carried out by young men pretending to transfer him to another ward. As he lay on the stretcher, he was shot in the left side of the head.

Mr. Hajoj, like five others killed at the hospital this way in 24 hours, was accused of collaboration with Israel. He had been in the central prison awaiting trial by Hamas judges; when Israel destroyed the prison on Sunday he and the others were transferred to the hospital. But their trials were short-circuited.

give them a state!

I'm curious about how stepping up the violence prevents violence, because it has only escalated the violence and hurt any chances for a ceasefire.

you mean the cease fire that hamas called off a week ago? you've been reading this thread, right?

e: here it is: http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3124152&postcount=21

 

[Samirol]

you mean the cease fire that hamas called off a week ago? you've been reading this thread, right?

Israel broke the cease fire on the 4th, if that's what you are referring to.

edit: Why should Hamas go with a cease fire if Israel can violate it at will? Israel is completely out of bounds with the blockades.

Source that it wasn't an institution of higher learning, every single source I'm reading says that it is a legitimate university.

 

[rockwool]

I have to respond to a few things.


Montashu, I have to commend you on that you're very reasonable for a Zionist, but one thing that you say is that Egypt are half (?) (or at least very much) to blame about the 18 month old blockade. They sertainly aren't lifting all too many fingers for the Palestinians, and reason to this (to ad to a few previously brought up) has also to do with that the US is supporting them more than any other country in the world, only second to Israel. Their silence/innactivity is at least partially bought.

That said, it's Israel that controlls most of the things and that are upholding the blockade. Since Hamas was democraticly elected they've tried to dictate in another states internal afairs by freezing their assets, closing their borders, closing their harbours, never let them open their airport, andm I could be wrong on this but, I belive that Israel has all the time controlled the small borderstrip to Egypt. Total blockade.

Today a Cypriotic ship full with medical equipment wasn't allowed to dock in Gaza, Israel admitted that "these waters are under Isreali controll".

Gazas agricultural products, probably their only exports and therefore means of income, have laid to rotten for two seasons now. Nothing has been let in, no food, no medical supplies, no UN observers, nothing. These are acts of war. Qassam was the only thing they could answer with, they don't have an alternative or a choise for that matter. Qassam's are a reaction, not an unprovoked action.

And on the line JohnE was; how come the all these countries that are so outspoken with their high values, like Sweden, refuse to take apropriate action against a constantly warring nation that so obviously is continuously breeching the Geneva Convention? Only Israel can get away with this (and for soo long).

I also want to ask you, Montashu, do you recognize Palestines right to West Jerusalem (that was unclear from your previous statement conserning Gaza and W.B.)?




$tinkle, about Nelson Mandela type prisoners in Isreali prisons. There are loads of them, by the thousands, and most are untrialed. Loads of Lebanese untrialed prisoners too, by the hundreds if not more.



dante, you've quoted Haaretz and emphasized that they're leftleaning, I just like to ad that in this conflict having a Zionist stance or not probably has quite alot to it too.



Montashu, when you're looking to lay part of the blame on the Palestinians because they've elected Hamas you're forgetting that Palestine is a country under occupation. It would be a fa**in miracle if a people in a country wouldn't look to a more extreme sollution after almost 50 years of various type of oppression. This is a product of the enviroment that Isreael is going to continue on. The western world letting Israel continue with this are to blame to a minor part.

Continuously talking about the "destruction of Israel" and "wiping us off the map" is like shouting fire all the time without even seeing any smoke. Since 1948 Israel has not only survived Arab neighbour attacks exellently but, judging by how Israel looks compared to Palestine, they are in fact the ones destroying their neighbours land, driving their brother people to the sea (or refugee camps), and have plans of "a last solution"; the Transfer. Compared to this, Israels infrastructure and it's inhabitants suffering has suffered very very little, but shouted hella lot more.

Right now on the news, the UN commissioner for relief says that the border towards Egyptv(Rafah?) is controlled by Isreal and is closed. They won't open it. Only the smaller military border is open but it can't handle all the relief trucks needed daily (35/100).




dante, as I've mentioned above, the rockets are still comming due to the blockade. Then there is that W.B. and E. Jerusalem are still occupied and Israel isn't going to leave them ever. There isn't going to be a Palestinian nation without those two, and it will continue to be fought for forever by the looks of it.
Hizbollah is justifying there attacks due to the Shaba farms, but also due to the hundreds, or maybe even thousands, of prisoners still being held (without a trial mostly) by Israel.




Transcend, you've been saying some really good stuff in this thread, sadly I'm not allowed to rep you for a while. Can't remember that I've ever agreed with you more.
What the Montashu is speaking about in post #67 is state terrorism, wich naturally differs a bit from usual terrorism.

 

[rockwool]

The Cypriotic ship was actually rammed, just saw pics of it.

 

[$tinkle]

Israel broke the cease fire on the 4th, if that's what you are referring to.

edit: Why should Hamas go with a cease fire if Israel can violate it at will? Israel is completely out of bounds with the blockades.

wiki, fwiw: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Qassam_rocket_attacks_in_Israel_in_2008

3 notes:
- this is only qassam rockets, and not small arms fire
- i assume qassam rockets are solely under control of hamas (in gaza anyway)
- i don't know the terms of the cease-fire, and to what degree any violation translates to. i'd hate to think just one bad actor on either side could dissolve the whole deal, but it would certainly be seen as such by many on both sides.

 

[dante]

dante, as I've mentioned above, the rockets are still comming due to the blockade. Then there is that W.B. and E. Jerusalem are still occupied and Israel isn't going to leave them ever. There isn't going to be a Palestinian nation without those two, and it will continue to be fought for forever by the looks of it.
Hizbollah is justifying there attacks due to the Shaba farms, but also due to the hundreds, or maybe even thousands, of prisoners still being held (without a trial mostly) by Israel.

Hamas et al are still firing rockets in order to:
1) Keep the conflict going. Without the conflict they would be completely marginalized
2) To save face by "standing up to Israel"
3) To keep getting funding from the rest of the Middle East.

Nobody wants to be seen as "losing", including both Hamas and Israel. Hamas doesn't want the conflict in Gaza to end with them being seen as the losers, as it would hamstring them in their fight with Fatah in the WB.

And I completely agree that there is still the issue of the WB and E. Jerusalem, and I think that Israel is completely, 100% wrong in both of those. E. Jerusalem is essential to a Palestinian state (and guaranteed by the Security Council), and the settlements are an impediment to any state. They keep building more, and more, in the hopes that they can use them as bargaining chips to keep more, and more settlements.

However. I can also understand why Israel doesn't want to let go of their control of the WB after what happened with Gaza. This is a graph of Qassam rockets fired from Gaza, per month:

You can see the sharp increase after the fall of 2005, when Israel evacuated settlements and pulled out of Gaza. I was (and still am) extremely supportive of that action, but you can see what happened, the number of attacks coming out of there only increased. Israel initially closed off the Gaza Strip back in 2006 due to Hamas killing 2 Israeli soldiers (in Israel) and capturing a 3rd. Then they've shut down the crossings (for Palestinians to enter Israel to work) after repeated suicide bombers targeted them.

This is not going to convince the Israelis that it would be in their best interest to vacate the WB. Suddenly *all* of Israel would be in range of Qassam rockets...

I'm sorry, Israel was responsible and pulled out of Gaza, they dismantled checkpoints (major cause of Palestinian anger), evacuated settlements (another major cause of Palestinian anger) and all they got was more violence, both in rockets and border incursions. The last thing they should do to an enemy that has showered rockets on them is give them *more* trade, more chances to smuggle in rockets, mortars, TNT, etc.

 

[TheMontashu]

I have to respond to a few things.


Montashu, I have to commend you on that you're very reasonable for a Zionist, but one thing that you say is that Egypt are half (?) (or at least very much) to blame about the 18 month old blockade. They sertainly aren't lifting all too many fingers for the Palestinians, and reason to this (to ad to a few previously brought up) has also to do with that the US is supporting them more than any other country in the world, only second to Israel. Their silence/innactivity is at least partially bought.

That said, it's Israel that controlls most of the things and that are upholding the blockade. Since Hamas was democraticly elected they've tried to dictate in another states internal afairs by freezing their assets, closing their borders, closing their harbours, never let them open their airport, andm I could be wrong on this but, I belive that Israel has all the time controlled the small borderstrip to Egypt. Total blockade.

Today a Cypriotic ship full with medical equipment wasn't allowed to dock in Gaza, Israel admitted that "these waters are under Isreali controll".

Gazas agricultural products, probably their only exports and therefore means of income, have laid to rotten for two seasons now. Nothing has been let in, no food, no medical supplies, no UN observers, nothing. These are acts of war. Qassam was the only thing they could answer with, they don't have an alternative or a choise for that matter. Qassam's are a reaction, not an unprovoked action.

And on the line JohnE was; how come the all these countries that are so outspoken with their high values, like Sweden, refuse to take apropriate action against a constantly warring nation that so obviously is continuously breeching the Geneva Convention? Only Israel can get away with this (and for soo long).

I also want to ask you, Montashu, do you recognize Palestines right to West Jerusalem (that was unclear from your previous statement conserning Gaza and W.B.)?

I understand that the US is behind much of the conflict, and through money has a way of controlling things. My main gripe with Egypt is that they play themselves up as being "friends" with Palestine, yet they do nothing to help them, and often hurt the Palestinians.

As for the whole who is more at fault I do feel that both the Palestinians and the Israeli's are equally at fault. Though the Israeli's are clearly the oppressor compared to the Palestinians, they both have equally have the ability to stop the violence, so I hold them equally accountable (if that makes any since) As it sits now no one is "right" in this situation, the "right" side to take is one of compromise and understanding.

I am all for giving the Palestinians west Jerusalem, but I also want the Israelis to be aloud to excavate the temple mount for historic stuff first.

And, in an ideal situation there is one country with both Arabs, and Jews living together peacefully.

Montashu, when you're looking to lay part of the blame on the Palestinians because they've elected Hamas you're forgetting that Palestine is a country under occupation. It would be a fa**in miracle if a people in a country wouldn't look to a more extreme sollution after almost 50 years of various type of oppression. This is a product of the enviroment that Isreael is going to continue on. The western world letting Israel continue with this are to blame to a minor part.

Continuously talking about the "destruction of Israel" and "wiping us off the map" is like shouting fire all the time without even seeing any smoke. Since 1948 Israel has not only survived Arab neighbour attacks exellently but, judging by how Israel looks compared to Palestine, they are in fact the ones destroying their neighbours land, driving their brother people to the sea (or refugee camps), and have plans of "a last solution"; the Transfer. Compared to this, Israels infrastructure and it's inhabitants suffering has suffered very very little, but shouted hella lot more.

Right now on the news, the UN commissioner for relief says that the border towards Egyptv(Rafah?) is controlled by Isreal and is closed. They won't open it. Only the smaller military border is open but it can't handle all the relief trucks needed daily (35/100).

I totally understand why the Palestinians would elect, they are living an a prison, and its terrible. That does not change the fact that electing hamas was the single worst group they could have elected, and at some point the Palestinians still have to be responsible for electing an organization that has killed hundreds and hundreds of Israeli's

I believe that Israel would be blocking the boarder, and that is disgusting. I still put allot of this on egypt, they were offered Gaza more than once and made it an Israeli problem.

 

[Samirol]

The Egyptian people overwhelmingly support the Palestinians, but their government does not.

If Egypt had control of the Gaza strip, that would make Egypt responsible for the radicalism and attacks coming from there. That isn't beneficial to overall peace in the region, instead of it being an Israeli-Palestinian issue, it would be Israeli-Egyptian.

Israel made it an Israel problem, Egypt just didn't want to inherit it.

 

[rockwool]

TheMontashu, I'm sure the average Israeli want nothing more than peace, but they continue to vote for parties taht are for a harder line all the time. Their governments actions and plans speak for them selves, and they're far from efing peaceful.

There's always talk about that the Palestinians have to accknowledge Israel, but we don't hear anything in the media conserning that Israel has to do the same about Palestine (that's the famous objectivity of our media right there..). Considering that Israel is continuing to refuse to deal with the Palestinian refugees repatriation, to stop expanding its borders into the W.B., to stop expanding its settlements, to remove its settlements, and to return West Jerusalem to the Palestinians, then those demands are nothing but spits in their face and only meant as a laugh among Zionists out of sadistic reasons.




Silver, you're soo right about Hamas being providers compared to Fatah. I recognize Fatah's style from the Swedish Socialdemocrats who've been in power for soo long they've started to consider the governmentship theirs to keep, and also with time ignoring their voters more and more. Now look at Abbas who's again selling out his people, now in Gaza, only so that the Israelis gonna want him, and not Hamas, in power. Change was needed and the palestinians had their say, but Abbas didn't let Hamas rule the government. He was totally defiant from the start.

Most International Solidarity Movement activists, who are representing bigtime in Palestine, say that Marwan Barghouti is the best major alternative down there.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marwan_Barghouthi

If there was a party looking to compromise, Israel would have made damn sure that nothing happened to them.(though they would have little chance of legitimacy)

What is compromise to you? The Palestinians had, what, 65% of their land stolen from them by the UN, and now Israel is continuing to take more on the W.B and W.Jerusalem, and you want them to give more?
Not only were they forced to leave most of their country, while one would expect a brotherly like split of 50/50, but Israel was given the most arable lands, and you want them to give more?
What party would do that, the Wishy Party of Palestine, WPP?




dante, Hamas didn't brake any truce per se, they've been under an Israeli blockade since the day they were elected (and also been frozen out by the all too important western comunity); Cassus Belli.

While the Palestinians as people are uniting, Abbas does the opposite and blames Hammas, so he continues to be looking to be thrown a better bone by the Israelis.




FACT:
* Israel recieves $7 million per day from US taxpayers,
* Palestine recieves $300.000 per day from US taxpayers.
* Israel recieves the whole yearly sum in the beginning of January and since the US has a deficit it has to pay interest on that sum, while Israel gains interest until the whole sum is spent (maybe Palestine too).

 

[TheMontashu]

TheMontashu, I'm sure the average Israeli want nothing more than peace, but they continue to vote for parties taht are for a harder line all the time. Their governments actions and plans speak for them selves, and they're far from efing peaceful.

There's always talk about that the Palestinians have to accknowledge Israel, but we don't hear anything in the media conserning that Israel has to do the same about Palestine (that's the famous objectivity of our media right there..). Considering that Israel is continuing to refuse to deal with the Palestinian refugees repatriation, to stop expanding its borders into the W.B., to stop expanding its settlements, to remove its settlements, and to return West Jerusalem to the Palestinians, then those demands are nothing but spits in their face and only meant as a laugh among Zionists out of sadistic reasons.

Agreed the Israeli's have a whole lot more to go in better the situation. While the major Israeli parties are adopting a more and more hard line stance to Palestine, there is a rapidly growing movement in Israel towards giving the Palestinians the WB and E Jerusalem. This is a movement that we are not seeing in Palestine.

What is compromise to you? The Palestinians had, what, 65% of their land stolen from them by the UN, and now Israel is continuing to take more on the W.B and W.Jerusalem, and you want them to give more?
Not only were they forced to leave most of their country, while one would expect a brotherly like split of 50/50, but Israel was given the most arable lands, and you want them to give more?
What party would do that, the Wishy Party of Palestine, WPP?

While the Israeli's were given 65% of the land much of that land was the Negev desert, if you take a look at the map of the original partition plan you will see that the Palestinians were given most of the farmable land in the north. Really the only compromise I want to see from the Palestinians is them to acknowledge Israel as a state, stop attacks into and against Israel, and shut up and be happy with the West Banks (Including E Jerusalem) and Gaza. While I expect the Israeli's to allow goods and services into both places and to pull all troops and settlements out of those areas (less a few holy sights, Jews should be allowed to their holy sights just as the Muslims and Christians should be)

 

[$tinkle]

for an area that's under constant seige (gaza), they sure have a tried & true way to either produce or smuggle weapons. just noting this is curiously at odds with the claim that israel is choking them out of existence - or whatever phrase best fits.

i'm not sure how israel intends to break the back of hamas, but it will most likely translate to quite a bit of collateral damage, i.e., mass grave industry will experience a local boon

"it's a big shlt sandwich & we're all going to have to take a bite"

...and ann margaret's not going to make it

 

[$tinkle]

another thought: if' this is all-out war, why not just step back & let them work it out to the extent they abide by the geneva convention? but since they're both viewed as wandering into the ethical gray area, what really should we do?

i'm fond of just posting wildly biased commentary here

 

[Samirol]

well, through the Egyptian tunnels, but Egypt regularly shuts them down. That's the only way food, fuel, and medicine can get in during the blockades, but it isn't enough.

I don't really see how Israel can break the back of the radical movements there, because the harder Israel pushes the more violent the backlash will be.

Israel did fund Hamas, though

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10456.htm

 

[Defenestrated]

how the separation wall is not considered a crime against humanity is beyond me

 

[Silver]

Re-read what I posted. If Hamas abides by the GC, Israel has to as well.

Except of course for that pesky occupation (now blockade).

My point all along is not that Hamas is a good thing (what did I call them upthread? Murderous religious terrorists?) but that Israel is worse. Both sides are lead by murderous religious zealots, but since Israel pretends to be a first world democracy, I hold them to a higher standard.

 

[TheMontashu]

how the separation wall is not considered a crime against humanity is beyond me

It is this thing called a boarder, Israel has relinquished control of the west bank to the Palestinians (though it seems with the help of Egypt they are turning the whole place into a prison) But putting a wall when the people on the other side of your boarder are launching rockets is just fine with me. There is nothing wrong with one country closing it's boarders to another country, that is there right.

 

[MikeD]

It is this thing called a boarder,

And we all know how dangerous boarders can be.

 

[Transcend]

it Is This Thing Called A Boarder, Israel Has Relinquished Control Of The West Bank To The Palestinians (though It Seems With The Help Of Egypt They Are Turning The Whole Place Into A Prison) But Putting A Wall When The People On The Other Side Of Your Boarder Are Launching Rockets Is Just Fine With Me. There Is Nothing Wrong With One Country Closing It's Boarders To Another Country, That Is There Right.

Equal Opertunity!!!!

 

[Defenestrated]

It is this thing called a boarder, Israel has relinquished control of the west bank to the Palestinians (though it seems with the help of Egypt they are turning the whole place into a prison) But putting a wall when the people on the other side of your boarder are launching rockets is just fine with me. There is nothing wrong with one country closing it's boarders to another country, that is there right.

how can you maintain this belief when the separation wall has caused so much suffering?

not only has it cut innocent Palestinians off from basic amenities and infrastructure, in many areas it has robbed them of ancestral land owned by families for hundreds of years.

not to mention that the pretense for constructing the wall is invalidated due to the fact that the wall is essentially a tool of exclusion used to force apartheid on an oppressed people.

 

[dante]

It is this thing called a boarder, Israel has relinquished control of the west bank to the Palestinians (though it seems with the help of Egypt they are turning the whole place into a prison) But putting a wall when the people on the other side of your boarder are launching rockets is just fine with me. There is nothing wrong with one country closing it's boarders to another country, that is there right.

The separation wall between Israel and Gaza is perfectly fine. Israel went through the painstaking process of ensuring that the wall was built exactly on the 1948 border, and there's no law that states that you have to trade with your neighbors. The separation wall between Israel and the WB (constructed almost 100% in Palestinian territory) is definitely a crime.

edit: There's also the question of the legality of the blockade (sea) or cutting off the border crossings with Egypt, but that's not what I take as the separation wall.

 

[dante]

Except of course for that pesky occupation (now blockade).

My point all along is not that Hamas is a good thing (what did I call them upthread? Murderous religious terrorists?) but that Israel is worse. Both sides are lead by murderous religious zealots, but since Israel pretends to be a first world democracy, I hold them to a higher standard.

Why? Or, more to the fact, why are you not holding Hamas to at least as high a standard? When Hamas launches rockets from inside or right next to civilian buildings, why isn't there an international outcry? When they directly target civilians, there's not a peep from most of the world. You may claim that Israel is worse, but that's still not the same as condemning Hamas. I've seen quite a bit of Hamas apologists here in this thread, claiming that they're only shooting off harmless fireworks, or that it was Israel who unilaterally disregarded the truce (neither of which are true). Hamas has been rearming with rockets and other weapons through the smuggling tunnels, and as the single biggest governmental, terrorist and criminal entity in Gaza, they are controlling what goes in (and out) of that area. Hamas wants this conflict to continue and for the most part Israel has been reacting to actions by them or other terrorist organizations inside Gaza. You can claim that its (re)actions are disproportionate, but for the most part Israel is reacting to, not initiating the violence. They've closed border crossings as a result of mortar attacks, they've fired missiles at rocket launchers as a result of rocket attacks, etc.

I've long said that Israeli actions such as the WB wall, settlements and E. Jerusalem are at the very least prolonging the conflict, and probably war crimes, but I also think that Israel has a right to defend itself when attacked. It's the exact same as Lebanon in 2006. Israel gained the moral upper hand by withdrawing from Lebanese territory. They demolished outposts and bases that were just meters across the border so that they could claim that they had fully vacated Lebanese territory (with the exception of the Shaba Farms, which is in dispute whether it's Syrian or Lebanese). What they got from Hezbollah was continued violence (Katyusha rockets and the kidnapping of Israeli soldiers), and Israel hit back militarily in 2006, and were correct to do so.

I'm against the occupation but not the military response to terrorism. You have to be able to defend yourself, and if/when we're attacked, we have to be able to strike back as well. To insist that Israel put up with something like rocket attacks when we would never allow that to happen on our own soil (Mexican or Canadian rocket attacks at our civilian centers) is hypocritical.

/soapbox

 

[Silver]

Why? Or, more to the fact, why are you not holding Hamas to at least as high a standard? When Hamas launches rockets from inside or right next to civilian buildings, why isn't there an international outcry? When they directly target civilians, there's not a peep from most of the world. You may claim that Israel is worse, but that's still not the same as condemning Hamas.

What part of "murderous religious terrorists" is ambiguous to you? Looking back, the first time I referred to them as such, it was in the context of Israel acting worse than them, but the second time in this thread is pretty plain. And make no mistake, Israel is acting worse than Hamas is. One side has all the power, all the high tech weaponry, tons of support from the United States, and has killed many more people.

Again, I don't hold Hamas to as high a standard as Israel for the same reason I didn't look at the torture at Abu Ghraib and rationalize it by saying, "Saddam was worse!" Of course Saddam was worse, but if your morality says that you only have to be a bit better than a monster, that's not much different from having no morality at all.

You're really putting the bar low for the Israelis here, although I can't fault you for that. It seems like the Israeli government has determined that as long as they actually don't put bodies into massive ovens they hold the moral high ground.

 

[$tinkle]

And we all know how dangerous boarders can be.

reconciliation of jerusalem is at hand

 

[dante]

So, if you're holding Hamas to a "lower standard" than Israel, what is Hamas allowed to do? Target civilians? Kill civilians? Place military hardware next to, or inside of civilian buildings? Kidnap/kill/torture Israeli soldiers? Refuse to let the Red Cross meet with and examine any Israeli soldiers they have in custody (Ehud Goldwasser and Eldad Regev)?

You may claim that Hamas is a group of "murderous religious terrorists", but beyond that have you criticized any actions that they've taken? Are you willing to admit that they are at least partly to blame for the current conflict? Will you admit that by continuously firing rockets into Israel during the "truce", they've encouraged the tit-for-tat conflict that's lead up to Israel's current bombardment? It seems that the prevailing sentiment on this board is that Israel is 100% at fault, and Hamas is 0% at fault. (Note, I'm not claiming that's what *you're* saying, just what seems to be the mood around here)

And setting a low bar? The right to respond when attacked? How is that setting the bar low, every country in the world has that right. Can you name another country in the world that doesn't have the right to respond militarily when rockets are fired at it? Name one, not including Israel. If Taiwan starts lobbing missiles at China, would we insist that China just sit there and not fire back because only a few people got killed? If Pakistan started shelling parts of India, would we tell them that since India is bigger, and stronger, that they should just sit back and not respond?

(Note, before you start in on separate states, in the Taiwan / China conflict, in the US eyes it would technically be an inter-China conflict. The US does not technically recognize Taiwan as independent of China, even though it does continue to trade with it and supply weapons)

Edit: More examples - Is Shri Lanka allowed to retaliate militarily when the Tamil Tigers conduct suicide bombings against civilians?
How about Columbia and FARC?

 

[$tinkle]

but since Israel pretends to be a first world democracy, I hold them to a higher standard.

i know what you mean.
this black guy broke into my car, but since crime is disproportionately committed by minorities, i let is slide. and in the lockerroom @ teh Y, this dude was totally checking out my junk. when i demanded he tell me what church he attended so i could rat him out, he told me he was a flaming infidel, so i was understanding when he gawked away.

it's not their fault; it's just how they roll

And make no mistake, Israel is acting worse than Hamas is. One side has all the power, all the high tech weaponry, tons of support from the United States, and has killed many more people.

this would be valid if both sides had equal weaponry, but they don't. do you honestly think hamas would be only targetting military targets if they had tanks, f16's & all their u.s. glory?

 

[Silver]

You may claim that Hamas is a group of "murderous religious terrorists", but beyond that have you criticized any actions that they've taken?

Jesus ****ing Christ. Are you serious? Again, what part of MURDEROUS RELIGIOUS TERRORISTS is unclear to you?

Do a search on my username and Hamas. The only good thing I've ever said about them (which happens to be 100% true, by the way) is that they are better at providing social services than Fatah is. So, to atone for that sin I suppose I need to go over and skull **** the dead body of a Palestinian child to make you not doubt my loyalty?

And, again, for the record, the United States sends billions of dollars of military aid to Israel every year. Like it or not, I have a very small hand in that, and I'm not happy about it.

 

[dante]

this would be valid if both sides had equal weaponry, but they don't. do you honestly think hamas would be only targetting military targets if they had tanks, f16's & all their u.s. glory?

the question is, is not being strong enough to attack military targets justification for attacking civilian targets? even if Palestinians acted differently when armed with 21st century weapons, would that excuse them from trying to kill civilians now since that's all they're militarily capable of?

 

[dante]

Jesus ****ing Christ. Are you serious? Again, what part of MURDEROUS RELIGIOUS TERRORISTS is unclear to you?

Do a search on my username and Hamas. The only good thing I've ever said about them (which happens to be 100% true, by the way) is that they are better at providing social services than Fatah is. So, to atone for that sin I suppose I need to go over and skull **** the dead body of a Palestinian child to make you not doubt my loyalty?

And, again, for the record, the United States sends billions of dollars of military aid to Israel every year. Like it or not, I have a very small hand in that, and I'm not happy about it.

oster_oops: Sorry, conflating you with others in this thread. I don't require any SF'ing to prove loyalty...

It's just hard to read the posts where one side is allowed to target civilians, and the other side isn't allowed to go after military targets that are purposely placed in civilian areas. I think Hamas deserves a lot of the blame (not 100%, but a substantial amount) for what's going on right now, and much of the restrictions that are being demanded of Israel aren't demanded of any other country in the world. Its as if not approving of Israel's social policy (completely understandable, and mostly I don't approve either) means they have to act different militarily when responding to physical threats to their civilian population (which I don't agree with).

edit: And I'm pretty ticked off with a lot of what the US is doing right now, Israeli situation included...

 

[TheMontashu]

how can you maintain this belief when the separation wall has caused so much suffering?

not only has it cut innocent Palestinians off from basic amenities and infrastructure, in many areas it has robbed them of ancestral land owned by families for hundreds of years.

not to mention that the pretense for constructing the wall is invalidated due to the fact that the wall is essentially a tool of exclusion used to force apartheid on an oppressed people.

Cause it is legal, and the Israelis are doing nothing wrong (just between them and the Palestinians, a blockade is a totally different story.

Again not Israels responsibility to provide or even allow goods and services through there boarder, Stoping all goods and services is 1 thing, but not allowing them through YOUR boarder I don't have a problem with. Palestinians have not had there land robbed from them by the Israeli's while many have left there homes over the last 60 years, they were never forced to leave, not to mention the few million Palestinians living in Israel, with Israeli citizenship, and the same legal rights as a Jew in Israel.

No the wall is a tool for keeping people that are going to blow themselves up out of Israel.

 

[TheMontashu]

The separation wall between Israel and Gaza is perfectly fine. Israel went through the painstaking process of ensuring that the wall was built exactly on the 1948 border, and there's no law that states that you have to trade with your neighbors. The separation wall between Israel and the WB (constructed almost 100% in Palestinian territory) is definitely a crime.

edit: There's also the question of the legality of the blockade (sea) or cutting off the border crossings with Egypt, but that's not what I take as the separation wall.

The WB wall is not a crime, the Israeli's being there is a crime, as soon as they leave no one can have any sort of gripes with the wall

 

[TheMontashu]

What part of "murderous religious terrorists" is ambiguous to you? Looking back, the first time I referred to them as such, it was in the context of Israel acting worse than them, but the second time in this thread is pretty plain. And make no mistake, Israel is acting worse than Hamas is. One side has all the power, all the high tech weaponry, tons of support from the United States, and has killed many more people.

Again, I don't hold Hamas to as high a standard as Israel for the same reason I didn't look at the torture at Abu Ghraib and rationalize it by saying, "Saddam was worse!" Of course Saddam was worse, but if your morality says that you only have to be a bit better than a monster, that's not much different from having no morality at all.

You're really putting the bar low for the Israelis here, although I can't fault you for that. It seems like the Israeli government has determined that as long as they actually don't put bodies into massive ovens they hold the moral high ground.

People (and organizations) need to be held accountable for, is a Country murdering innocent people worse than a group of Religious extremists murdering people? No either way it's murder and people need to be accountable for what they do, and brushing them off as murderous terrorists, just means all that they are about is murder.

Playing the who is worse game is stupid, murder is murder is murder, and a human life is a human life is a human life, no matter what side they are on

 

[Transcend]

Cause it is legal, and the Israelis are doing nothing wrong (just between them and the Palestinians, a blockade is a totally different story.

So then the ghettos during WW2 that the jews were thrown into were completely legal and the German's were doing nothing wrong, correct?

 

[$tinkle]

stumbling around the blogosphere, found some nuggets:

A spokesman for the Popular Resistance Committees told Ynet Monday night that Palestinian groups in Gaza are preparing for the "real battle," urging Israel to launch a ground operation in the Strip. "If Israeli soldiers are such men, they should fight on the ground, the PRC's Abu Abir said. "The defeat they suffered on the ground in Lebanon would be even greater in Gaza... yet I know that we are dealing with cowards who ever since the 1980s have feared a face-to-face confrontation with us."... "We are inviting the Israelis to embark on the great challenge of ground combat," he said. The PRC spokesman added that "the entire Palestinian people understand that this is an all-out war, and that the resistance and its organizations are the only way to salvage Palestinian honor. The Israelis can continue to pulverize us from the air, and we shall continue to pulverize them with the means at our disposal... just like the Israelis trained and prepared, so did we."

Hamas flexed its muscles Tuesday night and fired two rockets into Beersheba as Defense Minister Ehud Barak asked for government approval to call up an additional 2,500 reservists ahead of a planned ground operation in the Gaza Strip. One of the Katyusha rockets struck a kindergarten in Beersheba, causing damage. Another rocket hit outside the city in an open field... In total, more than 50 rockets struck the South on Tuesday, with one scoring a direct hit on a home in Sderot. No one was wounded in the attack, as the family had taken refuge in a nearby secure room.

So then the ghettos during WW2 that the jews were thrown into were completely legal and the German's were doing nothing wrong, correct?

if the palestinians are israeli citizens, then that would be analogous

 

[TheMontashu]

So then the ghettos during WW2 that the jews were thrown into were completely legal and the German's were doing nothing wrong, correct?

Man your reading comprehension SUCKS, Israel preventing goods and services into Gaza is wrong, plain and simple and I have said that. Building a wall separating Israel and Gaza, so long as they let stuff in by sea, or through Egypt I could really care less if Israel doesn't want to get anything through.

Man you really are a retard, I AGREE with what you are saying (for the most part) But every time I try and point out the fault on both side, I am a pro Israel anti Palestinian Zionist. When you can learn to comprehend what you are reading a little better come back and we can have a nice debate.

 

[TheMontashu]

stumbling around the blogosphere, found some nuggets:

This is why I have so much trouble believing that the Palestinians don't bring allot (not necessarily a majority) of their suffering upon themselves, they are ASKING, quite literally, for it.

 

[dante]

So then the ghettos during WW2 that the jews were thrown into were completely legal and the German's were doing nothing wrong, correct?

if the palestinians are israeli citizens, then that would be analogous

Technically, any of the Nuremberg trials for charge #4 (crimes against humanity) focused on the Nazi's treatment of foreign Jews, not German. So the treatment of Polish, Austrian, Eastern European, French, Soviet, etc civilians was what was deemed a crime against humanity (including things like the Warsaw Ghetto). Apparently forced movement (and slaughter) of your own people was deemed ok (possibly because of Soviet actions of the time?). Since then, attitudes have shifted, allowing for prosecution for genocide of your own people (see Bosnian Serbs, Iraqi's like Chemical Ali), but at the time of the Nuremberg trials it definitely wasn't.

Edit: Looking for info to back this up. This seems to detail the sentences metered out, but in Goering's trial there was focus on his pre-war antisemitism, but I'm not sure if that was what he was convicted of, or whether it was just evidence of his behavior towards foreign Jews.

Edit #2: From the same site

“The prosecution contended that Crimes against Humanity fell within the province of International Law if they were committed in preparation for or in connection with international war such as aggressive war and War Crimes. This restriction was so as to not infringe in the domestic affairs of a sovereign state merely on the grounds that it was offending against humanitarian principles” (Calvocoressi 57-58).

Again, I'm relatively certain that this has changed to allow all prosecution even if it's not part of an international war, but at the time...

 

[$tinkle]

so we're talking legal, but not ethical/moral.

fair enough

 

[dante]

^^^ I'm not declaring either, as times have definitely changed (dictators have been charged in genocide cases without there being international war). I'm just sick and tired of people throwing around analogies and comparisons that are either factually wrong or completely irrelevant.

 

[rockwool]

Just now on BBC News,

Hamas has offered truce if Israel lifts the blockade, something taht Israel is ignoring, while quoting Tsipi Livni saying "we have no alternative but to continue as long as missiles rain down".

 

[TheMontashu]

Just now on BBC News,

You have to understand that Hamas's word means nothing, they have lied many times before, and if the Palestinians want the blockade to stop they would have stopped launching rockets into Israel months ago.