Israel's Crimes Against Humanity
- Thread starter Samirol
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Hamas isn't fundamentalist, but they are militant. Most Wahhabists are fundamentalist, but not militant.
e: plus, Palestinians are not Wahhabists.
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I suspect that it has less to do with hating Jews and more to do with regional politics. Israel is a threat to Iran, so destabilizing Israel is to the benefit of Iran. Ahmadinejad yells and screams a lot, but he isn't the one in power, he is the spokesman for the organization.
These kinds of stories aren't promising either: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5284173.ece
Ahmadinejad is written off as a crazy religious lunatic, but the people in power are fairly pragmatic.
Dead on with that one, Iran wants to stir up as much **** as possible
As well, Ahmadinejad doesn't have any power in Iran
http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm
pretty sure it's the jew hatred element of their islamism that underpins "regional politics". and i don't differentiate between the jews & israel when it comes to hamas, as they don't either
interesting link on hamas funding sources: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/para/hamas-funds.htm.
it was a primer for me anyway
pretty sure it's the jew hatred element of their islamism that underpins "regional politics". and i don't differentiate between the jews & israel when it comes to hamas, as they don't either
interesting link on hamas funding sources: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/para/hamas-funds.htm.
it was a primer for me anyway
I was referring to Iran when I'm said regional politics, because whenever Khamenei, the one that is actually in charge, speaks out, it is against the state of Israel, and not Jews.
For example, in this article: http://archives.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/meast/12/15/mideast.iran.reut/
For example, in this article: http://archives.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/meast/12/15/mideast.iran.reut/
There is a difference between the ideologies of Iran and Hamas, even though it is blended in the media.
op-ed by our 39th president: An Unnecessary War, which included this howler:
there are some positions on this ongoing conflict which can be more strongly argued. why does he choose to be such a partisan enabler? (rhetorically asked, of course)
while i believe he lacks good judgment, he's not stupid. in fact, he's rather smart. srsly smart. so why would he posit such a suggestion (i.e., rocket attacks from hamas had been ongoing for months prior, as i pointed out upthread)? is he playing loose w/ strict use of words? when he says "partially broken", does he intentionally leave open the position that it was not "initially" broken? same for "defensive" tunnel. more than just for defensive measures, hamas tunnels have been demonstrated to have been used for arms smuggling
there are some positions on this ongoing conflict which can be more strongly argued. why does he choose to be such a partisan enabler? (rhetorically asked, of course)
There was a 4 1/2 month lull with very few attacks, until Israel attacked on Nov 4th.
CNN reported the same thing
from this PDF: http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/English/eng_n/pdf/hamas_e017.pdf
CNN reported the same thing
from this PDF: http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/English/eng_n/pdf/hamas_e017.pdf
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do i sense that your belief is hamas was abiding by the cease-fire agreement even though they were still firing rockets into israel in every month?
b/c if this is tolerable to you to happen to israel, explain to me how this could be tolerable for any other nation.
i assume you recognize israel's sovereignty.
e: i see you edited (for clarity?)
b/c if this is tolerable to you to happen to israel, explain to me how this could be tolerable for any other nation.
i assume you recognize israel's sovereignty.
e: i see you edited (for clarity?)
The Gaza strip is not a nation, Hamas is not the government of a nation.
The Gaza strip is so unstable, that some leeway is to be expected. Considering that the violence decreased by such a massive amount, that proves that peace is possible and is a long-term thing.
I edited 6 month lull (the title of the pdf) to 4 1/2 months, since that is how long the lull lasted, even though it was planned for 6 months.
No, Hamas didn't abide by the cease fire, but considering the highly decreased amount of attacks, I consider it progress and shows that peace can be negotiated.
The Gaza strip is so unstable, that some leeway is to be expected. Considering that the violence decreased by such a massive amount, that proves that peace is possible and is a long-term thing.
I edited 6 month lull (the title of the pdf) to 4 1/2 months, since that is how long the lull lasted, even though it was planned for 6 months.
No, Hamas didn't abide by the cease fire, but considering the highly decreased amount of attacks, I consider it progress and shows that peace can be negotiated.
my understanding about cease-fire agreements is that there are 2+ parties. if israel is one, who is the other?
not "peace"; moderated terrorism is more like it.
maybe you're right; and maybe it was just a re-arming period (for both sides)
for me, progress would be the 4.5 month lull matched w/ a complete change of gov't that affirmed israel's right to exist, along w/ humanitarian concessions from israel.
Obviously Hamas is the other, but they aren't a government of a nation.
I never said or implied ever that it was a re-arming period.
There was relative peace, considering the massive drop in violence, it proves that peace is possible in the long term with continued diplomacy.
Progress comes in baby steps, especially with a sensitive situation like the I/P conflict. Lowering violence is the first priority, then the other stuff like recognizing Israel comes later. The Palestinian people elected Hamas in fair elections because Hamas gives 90%+ of their funding to social programs. The Palestinian people want peace and bread, but unfortunately one party is diplomatic and the other gives bread.
Stinkle, when you saw those graphs, was the thing that jumped into your mind "They broke the cease fire, those bastards!"? The first thing I notice is the massive drop in violence, and that this whole diplomacy thing works, but is a long-term solution that takes decades of work.
I never said or implied ever that it was a re-arming period.
There was relative peace, considering the massive drop in violence, it proves that peace is possible in the long term with continued diplomacy.
Progress comes in baby steps, especially with a sensitive situation like the I/P conflict. Lowering violence is the first priority, then the other stuff like recognizing Israel comes later. The Palestinian people elected Hamas in fair elections because Hamas gives 90%+ of their funding to social programs. The Palestinian people want peace and bread, but unfortunately one party is diplomatic and the other gives bread.
Stinkle, when you saw those graphs, was the thing that jumped into your mind "They broke the cease fire, those bastards!"? The first thing I notice is the massive drop in violence, and that this whole diplomacy thing works, but is a long-term solution that takes decades of work.
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don't know why i bother to quote you - we're the only ones left in the room it seems; but here goes
i take this & related comments as you hold them to a less strict standard. it's this kind of madness that leads to things like the kyoto protocol where india & china can continue to fvck everything up while we have to implement the strictest of measures. point is: it's not exactly a recipe for compliance when you have 2 standards.
right; i did
detente != diplomacy
in agreeance; hopefully buyer's remorse has set in
no, i thought: "who in their right minds can continue to call this a cease-fire?"Samirol said:
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India and China are countries, Palestine and Gaza aren't, it is a false comparison. The Gaza strip is much less stable than Israel, and a massive reduction in violence is fantastic.
Diplomacy was probably the wrong word, because diplomacy is between 2 countries. However, they got to that point by sitting down and talking, and that is the path to peace in the future.
Do you mean Israel or Hamas when referring to buyer's remorse?
Diplomacy was probably the wrong word, because diplomacy is between 2 countries. However, they got to that point by sitting down and talking, and that is the path to peace in the future.
Do you mean Israel or Hamas when referring to buyer's remorse?
really hoping you'll go back & read the next sentence for context
i bet you also excuse the rioters in oaklandSamirol said:
agreed (need to make it plain we don't disagree on everything here)Samirol said:
the duly elected gov't of hamas. i bet there's more than a few who were on teh fence about fatah who now regret their vote.Samirol said:
I understand your point, but the Kyoto protocol isn't a fair example because it is an agreement between stable countries. Gaza isn't stable or a country, and comparing countries to Israeli-Palestinian relations isn't good because there are different standards for countries and occupied territories.
Holding Hamas to the same standards as Israel will only lead to a lot of broken peace treaties because of the instability in Gaza.
Yeah, I'm sure quite a few do, but who know what would have happened if Fatah won instead of Hamas.
Holding Hamas to the same standards as Israel will only lead to a lot of broken peace treaties because of the instability in Gaza.
Yeah, I'm sure quite a few do, but who know what would have happened if Fatah won instead of Hamas.
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so if i were a citizen(?) of gaza, what would my passport read? this isn't a trick question, but i am curious how someone could be classified as a citizen of a geopolitical entity that isn't a country. if you're correct, i'm sure there are examples abound.
maybe something like hidden tribes in south america?
Hidden tribes don't exactly have the historical background of I/P relations, and are considered citizens of their country automatically.
The best example is the South African apartheid, from what I understand.
The best example is the South African apartheid, from what I understand.
There doesn't seem to be a lot of information on Palestinian passports, but I'll continue to do some digging.
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It's pretty hard for Palestinians to get anywhere, is has been for some time
They don't have absolute control over area. The massive reduction indicated that they did everything within their power to hold to the terms of the cease-fire. Are you just being obtuse?
If the US stopped enabling even more Israeli aggression, things may slow down. It's really about time the US butted out of other people's business and let them handle their own affairs.
They also just "sold" Israel F-35 JSF aircraft. I say "sold" because they will most likely be paid for out of financial aid that the USA gives Israel. Nothing but puppets.
http://blog.wired.com/defense/2009/01/wanted-ammo-shi.html
They also just "sold" Israel F-35 JSF aircraft. I say "sold" because they will most likely be paid for out of financial aid that the USA gives Israel. Nothing but puppets.
so rockets got smuggled into gaza & got into the hands of non-hamas terrorists?
who's being obtuse now?
approves!
because we all know the rocket launchings occur all-toyota-FIFO style with perfect efficiency, and non of those rockets launched during the cease fire could have been smuggled in prior to the cease fire.
we also know that all terrorists and terrorist groups function as a well-oiled machine with a hive mind, and there's no chance that rockets distributed during non-cease-fire could have been held by folks that aren't so good at following rules or orders.
the 1 rocket fired per month may be a measure of Hamas's inefficacy, but to me it shows a clear intent and an honest effort to abide by the terms.
What do you have to say about the 40 billion in arms we sold to egypt? Or the billions in arms to syria and jordan? How about we stop helping them BOTH kill each other.
Israel wouldn't exist as a nation without American funding, training, and weaponry. 51st state.
The day the US cuts off Israel is the day it crumbles. Not that there's anything wrong with that...I definitely have a problem with my tax dollars funding apartheid/slow genocide.
My last post was immensly ignored, I'm hurt, lost my teddy, but still I'll give you guys a hint. In any resistance against an occupation where the government ahs fallen, and therefore its armed forces, there are always a group of various resistance movements, not just one resistance movement. During WWII in Greece the biggest one was 133.500 man and woman strong, the second was 20.000 man strong, but after those two there were verry many other smaller factions.
In Gaza there's not only Hamas and Fatah, there's also Islamic Jihad and probably a myriad more that I have no idea of. The level of organization among Palestinians can't be compared to a country that has existed for 60 years. They are all factions in a chaotic country and their members in general, but mostly their leaders are continuously being targeted so that they won't have that chanse to organize.
The armed forces of israel, and other institutions too, are units. Those have the training, the equipment, and the time needed to obtain a standard that by many, including them selves (and me too BTW), is considered to be the best in the world (in a few fields that they're usually exposed to; i.e. not artic warfare for instance).
A proffesional is expected to uphold a higher skill than an amature, naturally, and a champ is in his turn expected to uphold the best skill of all on this planet.
I think it's fair to say that Israel is required to hold a higher standard than the Palestinians.
In Gaza there's not only Hamas and Fatah, there's also Islamic Jihad and probably a myriad more that I have no idea of. The level of organization among Palestinians can't be compared to a country that has existed for 60 years. They are all factions in a chaotic country and their members in general, but mostly their leaders are continuously being targeted so that they won't have that chanse to organize.
The armed forces of israel, and other institutions too, are units. Those have the training, the equipment, and the time needed to obtain a standard that by many, including them selves (and me too BTW), is considered to be the best in the world (in a few fields that they're usually exposed to; i.e. not artic warfare for instance).
A proffesional is expected to uphold a higher skill than an amature, naturally, and a champ is in his turn expected to uphold the best skill of all on this planet.
I think it's fair to say that Israel is required to hold a higher standard than the Palestinians.
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Agree, we should stop the US from selling arms to Palestine. Now.
I don't know that Israel would crumble. Israel has some very strong industry. Not to mention that Israeli's are not pussies and know how to deal with ****, I mean the whole country has served in the army (less the religious scum that are actually 90% of why Israel acts as horribly as it does towards the Palestinians) While it makes Israeli's lives a whole lot easier take a look at the war in 48, they should have been smashed so hard, but somehow they won.
Spend more time looking at what I have to say. The Palestinians are the pawn, in a conflict between Israel and the greater Arab world. We are very much doing everything we can to keep the region on the brink of total chaos to make sure our oil interests are accessible. We do the same thing Africa.
Another thing i find kind of funny is how the second the Israeli's pull out the Palestinians go destroy everything the Jews built (they left some factories and farms that were very successful) not only that but they went and destroyed a whole bunch of EU buildings and killed some people from the EU (who just happens to be the biggest source of aid for Palestine and one of Palestine's greatest advocates.)
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If a nation cannot maintain itself on it's on, it shouldn't be a nation to begin with. Just food for thought.
An army largely supplied with US arms including ammo, helicopter gunships, fighter jets, radar systems, missile batteries and high tech smart munitions.
If Israel is so damn successful with it's own industries, why does it require tens of millions in US aid?
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So Palestine should not be a nation to begin with??? Cut them off from aid and they starve to death, cut the Israelis off from aid and the ultra orthodox have to get a job. Once again, you fail.
Actually if you tore down the retarded Israeli walls and blockades, Palestine would be just fine on it's own.
Palestine has been around a hell of a lot longer than Israel btw. Their only major issue in the area is the 60 something year old nation of Israel. Israel goes away as protagonist, and so do a majority of the problems in the region.
You need to grow up and stop smoking zionist crack. The fact that the US supports these hypocrites in unconscionable. The only reason they get any sort of US support as it is is because the US uses Israel largely as a base of operations for Intelligence gathering in the region. If Israel stopped trying to puff out it's chest, there would be a whole hell of a lot less problems.
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Supplying aid (even through arms) is much different than arms sales. I think the Israelis can figure out how to pay for the stuff. Not to mention most of the military spending coming from internal sources.
Ya, they pay for it with US funds given to them by the US Government. 90%+ of their advanced weapons are US designed and built. They'd have the same crappy 30 year old soviet surplus weapons as Hamas and the rest of their neighbors if it wasn't for the US.
They didn't do so well before the wall......
I hate to break this to you, but there has NEVER been a state of Palestine. Last I checked Israel was under control of britain, the before that the ottomans, and before that it went back and forth between foreign Christian and Muslim empires, before that the romans, before that the Jews. I see no Palestine any where in it's history..........
Zionist crack? I want nothing more than the Palestinians to have a state in the west bank and gaza, with it's capitol in part of Jerusalem. I want nothing more than the Palestinians to be able to freely travel in and out of Israel to see friends and relatives as well as back and forth through Israel between gaza and the west bank.
You need to lay of the militant palestinian crack, and stop trying to place blame and find moral high ground. Neither side is right, they are both wrong, what needs to happen is for people to cut the bull****, take a look at and acknowledge what the other side has to say and try and find solutions.