[Reactor]

The concept of living in a reality defined by false preceptions , refered to as maya, veil of maya or the veil is a central buddhist concept.

In Hindu-Buddhist concept, Maya stands for the constant movement of the universe, so powerfully masking the essence of all matter that the phenomenal world of reality can only be perceived behind a 'veil of illusion'.

Basically the matrix is the story of the is the story of buddha's awakening, and piercing the veil to see true reality. The veil (matrix) is the false reality formed by our biased perceptions and the material world. When Neo/Buddha becomes fully enlightened he can see beyond the veil and see the actual nature of reality.


There are entire websites devoted to the matrix and religious concepts.

When asked by a fan if Buddhist ideas influenced them in the production of the movie, the Wachowski brothers offered an unqualified "Yes." Indeed, Buddhist ideas pervade the film and appear in close proximity with the equally strong Christian imagery. Almost immediately after Neo is identified as "my own personal Jesus Christ," this appellation is given a distinctively Buddhist twist. The same hacker says: "This never happened. You don’t exist." From the stupa-like33 pods which encase humans in the horrific mechanistic fields to Cypher’s selfish desire for the sensations and pleasures of the Matrix, Buddhist teachings form a foundation for much of the film’s plot and imagery.

The Problem of Samsara. Even the title of the film evokes the Buddhist worldview. The Matrix is described by Morpheus as "a prison for your mind." It is a dependent "construct" made up of the interlocking digital projections of billions of human beings who are unaware of the illusory nature of the reality in which they live and are completely dependent on the hardware attached to their real bodies and the elaborate software programs created by AI This "construct" resembles the Buddhist idea of samsara, which teaches that the world in which we live our daily lives is constructed only from the sensory projections formulated from our own desires. When Morpheus takes Neo into the "construct" to teach him about the Matrix, Neo learns that the way in which he had perceived himself in the Matrix was nothing more than "the mental projection of your digital self." The "real" world, which we associate with what we feel, smell, taste, and see, "is simply electrical signals interpreted by your brain." The world, Morpheus explains, exists "now only as part of a neural interactive simulation that we call the Matrix." In Buddhist terms, we could say that "because it is empty of self or of what belongs to self, it is therefore said: ‘The world is empty.’ And what is empty of self and what belongs to self? The eye, material shapes, visual consciousness, impression on the eye -- all these are empty of self and of what belongs to self." According to Buddhism and according to The Matrix, the conviction of reality based upon sensory experience, ignorance, and desire keeps humans locked in illusion until they are able to recognize the false nature of reality and relinquish their mistaken sense of identity.

Drawing upon the Buddhist doctrine of Dependent Co-Origination, the film presents reality within the Matrix as a conglomerate of the illusions of all humans caught within its snare. Similarly, Buddhism teaches that the suffering of human beings is dependent upon a cycle of ignorance and desire which locks humans into a repetitive cycle of birth, death, and rebirth. The principle is stated in a short formula in the Samyutta-nikaya:


If this is that comes to be;
from the arising of this that arises;
if this is not that does not come to be;
from the stopping of this that is stopped.

The idea of Dependent Co-Origination is illustrated in the context of the film through the illusion of the Matrix. The viability of the Matrix’s illusion depends upon the belief by those enmeshed in it that the Matrix itself is reality. AI’s software program is, in and of itself, no illusion at all. Only when humans interact with its programs do they become enmeshed in a corporately-created illusion, the Matrix, or samsara, which reinforces itself through the interactions of those beings involved within it. Thus the Matrix’s reality only exists when actual human minds subjectively experience its programs.37

The problem, then, can be seen in Buddhist terms. Humans are trapped in a cycle of illusion, and their ignorance of this cycle keeps them locked in it, fully dependent upon their own interactions with the program and the illusions of sensory experience which these provide, and the sensory projections of others. These projections are strengthened by humans’ enormous desire to believe that what they perceive to be real is in fact real. This desire is so strong that it overcomes Cypher, who can no longer tolerate the "desert of the real" and asks to be reinserted into the Matrix. As he sits with Agent Smith in an upscale restaurant smoking a cigar with a large glass of brandy, Cypher explains his motives:


"You know, I know this steak doesn’t exist. I know that when I put it in my mouth, the Matrix is telling my brain that it is juicy and delicious. After nine years, you know what I realize? Ignorance is bliss."
Cypher knows that the Matrix is not real and that any pleasures he experiences there are illusory. Yet for him, the "ignorance" of samsara is preferable to enlightenment. Denying the reality that he now experiences beyond the Matrix, he uses the double negative: "I don’t want to remember nothing. Nothing. And I want to be rich. Someone important. Like an actor." Not only does Cypher want to forget the "nothing" of true reality, but he also wants to be an "actor," to add another level of illusion to the illusion of the Matrix that he is choosing to re-enter.39 The draw of samsara is so strong that not only does Cypher give in to his cravings, but Mouse also may be said to have been overwhelmed by the lures of samsara, since his death is at least in part due to distractions brought on by his sexual fantasies about the "woman in the red dress" which occupy him when he is supposed to be standing alert.

Whereas Cypher and Mouse represent what happens when one gives in to samsara, the rest of the crew epitomize the restraint and composure praised by the Buddha. The scene shifts abruptly from the restaurant to the mess hall of the Nebuchadnezzar, where instead of being offered brandy, cigars and steak, Neo is given the "bowl of snot" which is to be his regular meal from that point forward. In contrast to the pleasures which for Cypher can only be fulfilled in the Matrix, Neo and the crew must be content with the "single-celled protein combined with synthetic aminos, vitamins, and minerals" which Dozer claims is "everything the body needs." Clad in threadbare clothes, subsisting on gruel, and sleeping in bare cells, the crew is depicted enacting the Middle Way taught by the Buddha, allowing neither absolute asceticism nor indulgence to distract them from their work.

The Solution of Knowledge/Enlightenment. This duality between the Matrix and the reality beyond it sets up the ultimate goal of the rebels, which is to free all minds from the Matrix and allow humans to live out their lives in the real world beyond. In making this point, the film-makers draw on both Theravada and Mahayana Buddhist ideas.41 Alluding to the Theravada ideal of the arhat, the film suggests that enlightenment is achieved through individual effort.42 As his initial guide, Morpheus makes it clear that Neo cannot depend upon him for enlightenment. Morpheus explains, "No one can be told what the Matrix is. You have to see it for yourself." Morpheus tells Neo he must make the final shift in perception entirely on his own. He says: "I’m trying to free your mind, Neo. But I can only show you the door. You’re the one that has to walk through it." For Theravada Buddhists, "man’s emancipation depends on his own realization of the Truth, and not on the benevolent grace of a god or any external power as a reward for his obedient good behavior."43 The Dhammapada urges the one seeking enlightenment to "Free thyself from the past, free thyself from the future, free thyself from the present. Crossing to the farther shore of existence, with mind released everywhere, no more shalt thou come to birth and decay."44 As Morpheus says to Neo, "There’s a difference between knowing the path and walking the path." And as the Buddha taught his followers, "You yourselves should make the effort; the Awakened Ones are only teachers."45 As one already on the path to enlightenment, Morpheus is only a guide; ultimately Neo must recognize the truth for himself.

Yet The Matrix also embraces ideas found in Mahayana Buddhism, especially in its particular concern for liberation for all people through the guidance of those who remain in samsara and postpone their own final enlightenment in order to help others as bodhisattvas.46 The crew members of the Nebuchadnezzar epitomize this compassion. Rather than remain outside of the Matrix where they are safer, they choose to re-enter it repeatedly as ambassadors of knowledge with the ultimate goal of freeing the minds and eventually also the bodies of those who are trapped within the Matrix’s digital web. The film attempts to blend the Theravada ideal of the arhat with the Mahayana ideal of the bodhisattva, presenting the crew as concerned for those still stuck in the Matrix and willing to re-enter the Matrix to help them, while simultaneously arguing that final realization is an individual process.

Neo as the Buddha. Although the entire crew embodies the ideals of the bodhisattva, the filmmakers set Neo apart as unique, suggesting that while the crew may be looked at as arhats and bodhisattvas, Neo can be seen as a Buddha. Neo’s identity as the Buddha is reinforced not only through the anagram of his name but also through the myth that surrounds him. The Oracle has foretold the return of one who has the ability to manipulate the Matrix. As Morpheus explains, the return of this man "would hail the destruction of the Matrix, end the war, bring freedom to our people. That is why there are those of us who have spent our entire lives searching the Matrix, looking for him." Neo, Morpheus believes, is a reincarnation of that man and like the Buddha, he will be endowed with extraordinary powers to aid in the enlightenment of all humanity.

 

[Reactor]

Continued:

The idea that Neo can be seen as a reincarnation of the Buddha is reinforced by the prevalence of birth imagery in the film directly related to him. At least four incarnations are perceptible in the film. The first birth took place in the pre-history of the film, in the life and death of the first enlightened one who was able to control the Matrix from within. The second consists of Neo’s life as Thomas Anderson. The third begins when Neo emerges, gasping, from the gel of the eerily stupa-like pod in which he has been encased, and is unplugged and dropped through a large black tube which can easily be seen as a birth canal.47 He emerges at the bottom bald, naked, and confused, with eyes that Morpheus tells him have "never been used" before. Having "died" to the world of the Matrix, Neo has been "reborn" into the world beyond it. Neo’s fourth life begins after he dies and is "reborn" again in the closing scenes of the film, as Trinity resuscitates him with a kiss.48 At this point, Neo perceives not only the limitations of the Matrix, but also the limitations of the world of the Nebuchadnezzar, since he overcomes death in both realms. Like the Buddha, his enlightenment grants him omniscience and he is no longer under the power of the Matrix, nor is he subject to birth, death, and rebirth within AI’s mechanical construct.49

Neo, like the Buddha, seeks to be free from the Matrix and to teach others how to free themselves from it as well, and any use of superhuman powers are engaged to that end. As the only human being since the first enlightened one who is able to freely manipulate the software of the Matrix from within its confines, Neo represents the actualization of the Buddha-nature, one who can not only recognize the "origin of pain in the world of living beings," but who can also envision "the stopping of the pain," enacting "that course which leads to its stopping."50 In this sense, he is more than his bodhisattva companions, and offers the hope of awakening and freedom for all humans from the ignorance that binds them.

The Problem of Nirvana. But what happens when the Matrix’s version of reality is dissolved? Buddhism teaches that when samsara is transcended, nirvana is attained. The notion of self is completely lost, so that conditional reality fades away, and what remains, if anything, defies the ability of language to describe. In his re-entry into the Matrix, however, Neo retains the "residual self-image" and the "mental projection of [a] digital self." Upon "enlightenment," he finds himself not in nirvana, or no-where, but in a different place with an intact, if somewhat confused, sense of self which strongly resembles his "self" within the Matrix. Trinity may be right that the Matrix "cannot tell you who you are," but who you are seems to be at least in some sense related to who you think you are in the Matrix. In other words, there is enough continuity in self-identity between the world of the Matrix and "the desert of the real" that it seems probable that the authors are implying that full "enlightenment" has not yet been reached and must lie beyond the reality of the Nebuchadnezzar and the world it inhabits. If the Buddhist paradigm is followed to its logical conclusions, then we have to expect at least one more layer of "reality" beyond the world of the crew, since even freed from the Matrix they are still subject to suffering and death and still exhibit individual egos.

This idea is reinforced by what may be the most problematic alteration which The Matrix makes to traditional Buddhist teachings. The Buddhist doctrine of ahimsa, or non-injury to all living beings, is overtly contradicted in the film.51 It appears as if the filmmakers deliberately chose to link violence with salvific knowledge, since there seems to be no way that the crew could succeed without the help of weaponry. When Tank asks Neo and Trinity what they need for their rescue of Morpheus "besides a miracle," their reply is instantaneous: "Guns -- lots of guns." The writers could easily have presented the "deaths" of the Agents as nothing more than the ending of that particular part of the software program. Instead, the Wachowski brothers have purposefully chosen to portray humans as innocent victims of the violent deaths of the Agents.52 This outright violation of ahimsa stands at direct odds with the Buddhist ideal of compassion.

But why link knowledge so directly with violence? The filmmakers portray violence as redemptive,53 and as absolutely essential to the success of the rebels. The Matrix steers sharply away at this point from the shared paradigms of Buddhism and Gnostic Christianity. The "reality" of the Matrix which requires that some humans must die as victims of salvific violence is not the ultimate reality to which Buddhism or Gnostic Christianity points. Neither the "stillness" of the pleroma nor the unchanging "nothingness" of nirvana are characterized by the dependence on technology and the use of force which so characterizes both of the worlds of the rebels in The Matrix.

The film’s explicit association of knowledge with violence strongly implies that Neo and his comrades have not yet realized the ultimate reality. According to the worldviews of both Gnostic Christianity and Buddhism that the film evokes, the realization of ultimate reality involves a complete freedom from the material realm and offers peace of mind. The Wachowskis themselves acknowledge that it is "ironic that Morpheus and his crew are completely dependent upon technology and computers, the very evils against which they are fighting."54 Indeed, the film’s very existence depends upon both technology’s capabilities and Hollywood’s hunger for violence. Negating itself, The Matrix teaches that nirvana is still beyond our reach.

 

[Kihaji]

You should have wrote on the front cover, "Not that I support Nazis, but..."

I did write that, in big letters; "These views are not mine, but instead this is an excersice in trying to understand the Nazi point of view, the soldiers point of view and how they could be caught up in the propaganda." was emblazoned on the cover page.

But anyway, let us get back on the topic at hand, the conference in Iran to discuss the validity of the Holocaust information. While I think the conference itself is a ruse, I do believe that there should be a forum such as that to dispute some of the facts of the holocaust when evidence disproves them. It is still "taboo" to dissent anything that is considered a "fact" from the holocaust. And frankly, that isn't the way it should be. The holocaust in historical circles is much like terrorism in the current US administration, either you believe every word that is said about terrorism, or you are an evil terrorist yourself.

 

[Changleen]

But anyway, let us get back on the topic at hand, the conference in Iran to discuss the validity of the Holocaust information. While I think the conference itself is a ruse, I do believe that there should be a forum such as that to dispute some of the facts of the holocaust when evidence disproves them. It is still "taboo" to dissent anything that is considered a "fact" from the holocaust. And frankly, that isn't the way it should be. The holocaust in historical circles is much like terrorism in the current US administration, either you believe every word that is said about terrorism, or you are an evil terrorist yourself.

Particulars of what Iran is talking about aside, I agree.

 

[sanjuro]

I did write that, in big letters; "These views are not mine, but instead this is an excersice in trying to understand the Nazi point of view, the soldiers point of view and how they could be caught up in the propaganda." was emblazoned on the cover page.

But anyway, let us get back on the topic at hand, the conference in Iran to discuss the validity of the Holocaust information. While I think the conference itself is a ruse, I do believe that there should be a forum such as that to dispute some of the facts of the holocaust when evidence disproves them. It is still "taboo" to dissent anything that is considered a "fact" from the holocaust. And frankly, that isn't the way it should be. The holocaust in historical circles is much like terrorism in the current US administration, either you believe every word that is said about terrorism, or you are an evil terrorist yourself.

Now you have set yourself up.

Eyewitness accounts on both sides, documentation and records, physical evidence, and, of course, the millions of missing people and the mass graves is the proof.

Of course, the best way to debate established facts is call into question the veracity of the facts, especially when you have zero proof to the contrary. Then the burden of the proof no longer lies in with the disputers.

Now, I've lived in New Orleans and I have met David Duke personally.

I have also met Elie Wiesel as well (grammatically, it should be the same paragraph but I can't put both names together), and it is an affront to truth and justice to think Duke has anything of value to say except to forward his own interests.

Now say what ever f*ck you want, but if you want to even hint the Holocaust is a lie, then book yourself an one-ticket ticket to Tehran.

 

[DRB]

But anyway, let us get back on the topic at hand, the conference in Iran to discuss the validity of the Holocaust information. While I think the conference itself is a ruse, I do believe that there should be a forum such as that to dispute some of the facts of the holocaust when evidence disproves them. It is still "taboo" to dissent anything that is considered a "fact" from the holocaust. And frankly, that isn't the way it should be. The holocaust in historical circles is much like terrorism in the current US administration, either you believe every word that is said about terrorism, or you are an evil terrorist yourself.

I couldn't disagree more.

What this conference, and the overwhelming majority of those that rail against the holocaust, is talking about is a denial of the whole kit and kaboodle or at least reducing it to a level that minimizes it well beyond its true significance. This isn't be done out of some love of historical "truth" but for laying the groundwork of some action in the future.

In serious historical circles, as well as the mainstream ones, the basic facts of the Holocaust have moved beyond discussion. The Nazis made a plan, born of what can barely be describes as insanity, and implemented it to exterminate European Jews. During the implementation of that plan somewhere well above 5 million Jews and 6 million others for reasons similar were murdered in a number of locations using methods that deny those that carried out the actions their very humanity. The evidence, both in documentation and first hand accounts, is overwhelming. Counters to these facts have systematically and categorically been disproved as they have been made over the last 60 years. To open discussion or dispute about these facts opens you to serious admonition if not outright, and deserved, ridcule.

As for disputes about exact numbers, methods and locations, those occur all the time in serious historical circles. Even more so the reasons, and their validity, for why the Nazis took this course is debated at serious length. Most new texts regarding the Holocaust are going to be undertaken in terms of why.

The earth is round because its round not because we say its round.

 

[Kihaji]

Now you have set yourself up.

Eyewitness accounts on both sides, documentation and records, physical evidence, and, of course, the millions of missing people and the mass graves is the proof.

Of course, the best way to debate established facts is call into question the veracity of the facts, especially when you have zero proof to the contrary. Then the burden of the proof no longer lies in with the disputers.

Now, I've lived in New Orleans and I have met David Duke personally.

I have also met Elie Wiesel as well (grammatically, it should be the same paragraph but I can't put both names together), and it is an affront to truth and justice to think Duke has anything of value to say except to forward his own interests.

Now say what ever f*ck you want, but if you want to even hint the Holocaust is a lie, then book yourself an one-ticket ticket to Tehran.

Never said it didn't happen, or that it didnt happen at the level that it is said to have happen. I believe very much that it did happen. But the "facts" that are out there may very well not be. Documents can be forged, people lie, history is afterall, written by the victors.

And, as your response has so elegantly shown, this is a very touchy topic, filled on all sides with propaganda and half-truths. And anyone who comes up against what is considered "truth" is labeled a hate-monger and/or anti-semetic, which will deter future people from discussing the Holocaust and its facts in an open manner.

One of the most interesting things I have read on this particular conference is that some Jewish Rabbi's are actually in attendance. Not to discredit the conference or its talks, but to actually support some of the findings that, even though the holocaust did happen, perhaps some of the facts aren't facts at all.

 

[LordOpie]

Why are 'facts' so important? Does is really matter if it was 6 million jews or 2 million? Was the atrocity so beyond any specific number that it clearly was an attempt at genocide?

After a couple hundred thousand were killed in Sudan, didn't people start thinking, "holy crap, this is fvcking crazy!"

Facts are a way to dilute the bigger picture.

by the way, weren't other groups killed en masse as well? Like wasn't there a complete slaughter of Jehovah's Witness?

 

[Secret Squirrel]

But when you do it to your own religion-devoid countrymen, you get statues put up in your honor......

 

[sanjuro]

Never said it didn't happen, or that it didnt happen at the level that it is said to have happen. I believe very much that it did happen. But the "facts" that are out there may very well not be. Documents can be forged, people lie, history is afterall, written by the victors.

Excellent. Debate the nature of objective historical documentation but make no attempt to supply one fact. You are on your way to becoming a Holocaust Denier.

How much is that ticket to Iran?

 

[ohio]

Documents can be forged, people lie, history is afterall, written by the victors.

In this case, the history was very clearly recorded by the Germans. Last time I checked they were not the victors.

Believe what you want to believe. If you can't digest what DRB just wrote, I'm not wasting my time anymoie.

 

[Westy]

Why are 'facts' so important? Does is really matter if it was 6 million jews or 2 million? Was the atrocity so beyond any specific number that it clearly was an attempt at genocide?

After a couple hundred thousand were killed in Sudan, didn't people start thinking, "holy crap, this is fvcking crazy!"

Facts are a way to dilute the bigger picture.

by the way, weren't other groups killed en masse as well? Like wasn't there a complete slaughter of Jehovah's Witness?

Gypsies/Roma too. My peoples.

 

[Kihaji]

Gypsies/Roma too. My peoples.

Mine too, but casually forgotten from the history books. As are all the other minorities/handicapped(or would the liberals perfer handicapable?).

Excellent. Debate the nature of objective historical documentation but make no attempt to supply one fact.

I'm sorry, but who pi**ed in your wheaties this morning? Because I believe that the opportunity for discrepency in what is considered historical fact is possible I'm not in league with anti-semitics and holocaust deniers? What if I say that the UN's decision to create the state of Israel after WW2 in an area that had nothing to do with the holocaust is somewhat perplexing as well? Am I now on equal with the Nazi's that actually turned the gas valves on?

Get a grip, I am not even remotely saying that the holocaust did not happen, or that it wasn't an atrocity that unfortunately is currently playing out elsewhere in the world. But merely that some of the facts may not be facts. German documentation might have been forged or, gosh I don't know, embellished. Hitler was very much the type of leader that like to be "impressed", and competition among the SS officers for his favor was huge, the incentive to inflate numbers here and there was there.

 

[LordOpie]

Does it really matter how many were killed?

What then if we discover that it was a million, instead of six?

What's the goal?

 

[Changleen]

Does it really matter how many were killed?

What then if we discover that it was a million, instead of six?

What's the goal?

The goal is clearly to piss off and incite the Jews. I agree with you though.

 

[LordOpie]

The goal is clearly to piss off and incite the Jews. I agree with you though.

That's a lot more work than simply putting up xmas trees everywhere

 

[sanjuro]

I'm sorry, but who pi**ed in your wheaties this morning? Because I believe that the opportunity for discrepency in what is considered historical fact is possible I'm not in league with anti-semitics and holocaust deniers? What if I say that the UN's decision to create the state of Israel after WW2 in an area that had nothing to do with the holocaust is somewhat perplexing as well? Am I now on equal with the Nazi's that actually turned the gas valves on?

Get a grip, I am not even remotely saying that the holocaust did not happen, or that it wasn't an atrocity that unfortunately is currently playing out elsewhere in the world. But merely that some of the facts may not be facts. German documentation might have been forged or, gosh I don't know, embellished. Hitler was very much the type of leader that like to be "impressed", and competition among the SS officers for his favor was huge, the incentive to inflate numbers here and there was there.

You can't have it both ways. You can't question the validity of the Holocaust without a shred of research and say, "I am not a Nazi sympathizer, but...".

Every Holocaust Denier has an agenda unrelated to the truth, from the President of Iran to David Duke.

What's your agenda? btw, mine is to call out a-holes...

 

[BurlyShirley]

Does it really matter how many were killed?

What then if we discover that it was a million, instead of six?

What's the goal?

Yes. It matters to me, the truth. I'd like to know the actual figures and I think I do. I have no reason to "doubt" them, but if someone had evidence to the contrary, Id like to see it.

 

[BurlyShirley]

What's your agenda? btw, mine is to call out a-holes...

Sanjuro, this dude's name is "Kihaji" (sounds Asian) he might know Yoga too and kick your ass!

 

[sanjuro]

Sanjuro, this dude's name is "Kihaji" (sounds Asian) he might know Yoga too and kick your ass!

Uh, talking to rednecks is beneath me....

 

[ohio]

German documentation might have been forged or, gosh I don't know, embellished. Hitler was very much the type of leader that like to be "impressed", and competition among the SS officers for his favor was huge, the incentive to inflate numbers here and there was there.

Uh, no duh?

Look, I don't know why you think that this stuff isn't discussed in legitimate academic circles, but the fact that you think so is a huge flag that you haven't done your research. You're barely touching on the most basic elements of a conversation that's been going on for 50 years, and you're not even getting the basics right.

Scholars have all moved well beyond these questions, WITH A VERY CLEAR UNDERSTANDING OF THE FIDELITY AND CERTAINTY OF FACTS (e.g. we know X for sure, Y is debateable, Z is debateable but unimportant), to debate much more subtle and significant issues.

 

[binary visions]

But merely that some of the facts may not be facts.

The real question here is why are you discussing this? There's some greater purpose to it. The subject in question was a terrible, terrible tragedy that must not be downplayed or treated lightly, so questioning it is a serious matter and motives should be examined.

One of the possible motive is that you are, in fact, a Nazi sympathizer. You say this is not so, and I have no reason to believe otherwise, so we'll scratch that off the list.

Another possible purpose to a discussion like this is that you are in search of the truth. Unfortunately, you seem to have precious few facts at your command, and mostly speculation about how figures might have been exaggerated, and maybe there is incorrect documentation. If you were really in search of the truth, I'd expect you'd either have more concrete knowledge of the subject, or would be less inclined to argue about currently accepted statistics being wrong without something to back up your argument.

The third potential motive, and the one we all clearly see is the case, is that you simply enjoy the shock value of questioning a subject like this with no reasonable facts to support your hypothesis. Had you presented a compelling or well-documented case instead of "well, this is how I see it..." nobody would be questioning you right now. As it is, you're simply trying to push a sensitive button because you've got an agenda to piss off the world that you see as so politically correct.

Don a black outfit, get a crappy haircut and listen to bad music if the world makes you angry, questioning a terrible tragedy with no rational basis for your opinion is just unpleasant.

 

[Kihaji]

The real question here is why are you discussing this? There's some greater purpose to it. The subject in question was a terrible, terrible tragedy that must not be downplayed or treated lightly, so questioning it is a serious matter and motives should be examined.

One of the possible motive is that you are, in fact, a Nazi sympathizer. You say this is not so, and I have no reason to believe otherwise, so we'll scratch that off the list.

Another possible purpose to a discussion like this is that you are in search of the truth. Unfortunately, you seem to have precious few facts at your command, and mostly speculation about how figures might have been exaggerated, and maybe there is incorrect documentation. If you were really in search of the truth, I'd expect you'd either have more concrete knowledge of the subject, or would be less inclined to argue about currently accepted statistics being wrong without something to back up your argument.

The third potential motive, and the one we all clearly see is the case, is that you simply enjoy the shock value of questioning a subject like this with no reasonable facts to support your hypothesis. Had you presented a compelling or well-documented case instead of "well, this is how I see it..." nobody would be questioning you right now. As it is, you're simply trying to push a sensitive button because you've got an agenda to piss off the world that you see as so politically correct.

Don a black outfit, get a crappy haircut and listen to bad music if the world makes you angry, questioning a terrible tragedy with no rational basis for your opinion is just unpleasant.

Let's try number 2, as I have been repeatedly stating. Not only do I want the truth known about how many Jews were killed, which it is not (http://www1.yadvashem.org/about_holocaust/faqs/answers/faq_3.html), but I want the truth known, and others to know, how many people TOTAL were killed.

The holocaust was not a Jewish only thing, estimates were up as high as 26 million people. Of that the Jews may not be the highest total (some report that Slavic people, Poles etc, were upwards of 6 million also, although there isnt much evidence that they were systematically targeted), and countless other ethnicities had a significant number also, Roma(gypsies, my heritage), 300,000 disabled, communists, homosexuals, and various religious/societal sects(Jehova's Witnesses, Freemasons). But you never read about those in your history books. You never go and visit the Roma holocaust victim memorial. You never hear people talk of the real number of victims in the Holocaust.

That is the truth I am after, the truth of the WHOLE event, not just a piece of it. So call me a Nazi, call me ignorant, I really don't care. I've read and researched quite a bit, the problem is that the information about the whole event is few and far between.

 

[LordOpie]

So why downplay how many Jews were killed and why not scream from the top of your lungs that a lot of people from your heritage were killed and need memorials, rememberance, and compassion?

You're focused in the completely wrong direction.

Or you're a nazi

 

[ohio]

Let's try number 2, as I have been repeatedly stating. Not only do I want the truth known about how many Jews were killed, which it is not (http://www1.yadvashem.org/about_holocaust/faqs/answers/faq_3.html), but I want the truth known, and others to know, how many people TOTAL were killed.

WTF? Again, do you think you're the only one to ask this question? Holocaust scholars and most people with a conscience have asked and mostly ANSWERED these questions. Even in memorials dedicated specifically to the Jews you will find major portions devoted to others who were persecuted. Do you live in some alternate reality?

 

[Slugman]

If Sacha Baron-Cohen had some balls, he would visit this conference as Borat...

Be better as Bruno...

 

[golgiaparatus]

Furer = 5 characters, wow now thats deep.

 

[kidwoo]

the problem is that the information about the whole event is few and far between.

I'd never even heard of germany or that battle.....whatever it's called, before this thread.

 

[ohio]

I'd never even heard of germany or that battle.....whatever it's called, before this thread.

Is WW2 like Y2K?

 

[Westy]

Is WW2 like Y2K?

I think WW2 was an alternative internet protocol. Kind of like Betamax.

 

[kidwoo]

Is WW2 like Y2K?

So it IS a farse!!!

 

[sanjuro]

I've read and researched quite a bit, the problem is that the information about the whole event is few and far between.

Why don't you take a Concentration Camp Tour? Visit Israel? Or how about the Simon Wiesenthal Holocaust Center?

 

[Kihaji]

Why don't you take a Concentration Camp Tour?

Been there, Aushwitz was very interesting.

Visit Israel?

Been there, interesting place. (Spent 6 monts in Gaza for UN mission, got time to go to Israel.)

Or how about the Simon Wiesenthal Holocaust Center?

Went to the tolerance center in NYC when I was down in West Point. But since I didn't visit the actual one does that make me just a regular Nazi, not an SS?

Now, how many have you been to?

 

[DRB]

That is the truth I am after, the truth of the WHOLE event, not just a piece of it. So call me a Nazi, call me ignorant, I really don't care. I've read and researched quite a bit, the problem is that the information about the whole event is few and far between.

Oh my GAWD. You have not read nor researched even for one second if that is your stance. The only thing that makes this statement true is if you add the following:

that falls from the sky into your lap when you wish for it to appear.

But If you do even the BAREST search you can get totally and completely overwhelmed by every single aspect of the Holocaust, including research down to survival rates of individual living quarters at the various Concentration and Death Camps broken down by the variety of nationalities, ethenic backgrounds, financial status, profession and shoe size (well maybe not shoe size). There are few events, if any, that have the level of raw data and analysis available that dissect it to the level of the Holocaust, its vicitims, methods, reasons and perpetrators.

Your continued stance that this data and analysis doesn't exist is simply unfounded and can only be because you have no research skills, you are being contrary, or you have a mental defect.

Note: the biggest impact to me at the Holocaust museum in Washington is the shoes. It locked me in place for almost an hour.

 

[sanjuro]

me i've been to zero. my interests lie in tripping up douchebags.

edit: btw, you still have not quoted one fact about the Holocaust yet.

 

[kidwoo]

you still have not quoted one fact about the Holocaust yet.

There aren't any "facts" about the holocaust. That's why it's important for smug 19yr olds in college to point out just how weak a case exists for it's current conceptual perpetuation.

I mean there's VERY LITTLE information out there about the largest genocide in human history that involved several countries and millions of people. Hardly anything. It's like it never happened. Kind of makes ya think huh?

 

[sanjuro]

maybe it is a zionist plot to hid their jew gold.

 

[ohio]

survival rates of individual living quarters at the various Concentration and Death Camps broken down by the variety of nationalities, ethenic backgrounds, financial status, profession

Yeah, but that's just like your opinion, or something, maaaaan.

 

[Kihaji]

me i've been to zero. my interests lie in tripping up douchebags.

edit: btw, you still have not quoted one fact about the Holocaust yet.

Really?

The holocaust was not a Jewish only thing, estimates were up as high as 26 million people. Of that the Jews may not be the highest total (some report that Slavic people, Poles etc, were upwards of 6 million also, although there isnt much evidence that they were systematically targeted), and countless other ethnicities had a significant number also, Roma(gypsies, my heritage), 300,000 disabled, communists, homosexuals, and various religious/societal sects(Jehova's Witnesses, Freemasons). But you never read about those in your history books. You never go and visit the Roma holocaust victim memorial. You never hear people talk of the real number of victims in the Holocaust.

I guess reading comprehension is not high on your skill list.

 

[BurlyShirley]

The holocaust was not a Jewish only thing, estimates were up as high as 26 million people. Of that the Jews may not be the highest total (some report that Slavic people, Poles etc, were upwards of 6 million also, although there isnt much evidence that they were systematically targeted), and countless other ethnicities had a significant number also, Roma(gypsies, my heritage), 300,000 disabled, communists, homosexuals, and various religious/societal sects(Jehova's Witnesses, Freemasons). But you never read about those in your history books. You never go and visit the Roma holocaust victim memorial. You never hear people talk of the real number of victims in the Holocaust.

Those are your facts? Those sound like rough estimates and stupid assumptions to me, Hitler boy.