[Zutroy]

Yeah, it's already gotten ugly. We just got back from lunch all the ESPN sports shows are just beating the crap outta floyd and cycling in general......it's pretty sad. Most of those guys have no idea what they are talking about, but the general public doesnt' know that.

 

[MMike]

He's da dope man

 

[Reactor]

You know, Floyd was raised as a Mennonite, He's the last person I'd think to dope. He even went to his pastor to ask if it was O.K. to wear spandex shorts when he was racing as a teenager.

I have a hard time believing it. Especially since for the testerone to be of much good it has to be taken over a period of time, a single dose won't do you much good.

 

[Reactor]

On the other hand, if he is guilty, I say fry him. I'm sick and tired of roided up athletes.

 

[fuzzynutz]

People will do anything for fame and fortune. Look at television these days. All that's ever on is morons trying to get rich quick, or become a star. That said, I don't think he's juiced.

 

[Zutroy]

So the plot thickens, the ratio has been reported at 11:1 which is insane, but hi testosterone level is in the normal range....that's pretty much next to impossible to have.

 

[reflux]

So the plot thickens, the ratio has been reported at 11:1 which is insane, but hi testosterone level is in the normal range....that's pretty much next to impossible to have.

Source?

 

[Joe Pozer]

Interesting quote from an article I read this afternoon by Dr. Wadler:

Testosterone can build muscle and improve recovery time when used over a period of several weeks, said Dr. Gary Wadler, a member of the World Anti-Doping Agency and a spokesman for the American College of Sports Medicine. But if Landis had been a user, his earlier urine tests during the tour would have been affected, he said.

"So something's missing here," Wadler said. "It just doesn't add up."

 

[.:Jeenyus:.]

The exact T/E ratio measured for Landis has not been made public, and there is some debate as to whether the test necessarily proves doping.[9] In particular, hypothyroidism, which Landis has, causes low levels of SHBG, which in turn can cause relatively high levels of testosterone (since testosterone must bind with SHBG before it can be biologically processed out of the system). The net result is an accumulation of testosterone and an abnormally high T/E ratio. Even though he is on medication for his hypothyroidism, thyroid levels are notoriously unstable in those with hypothyroidism, even if taking medication.

Info from another thread on the net. I don't know the source.

 

[HOOWAH]

velonews reported an article saying testosterone patches can aid recovery but the levels are usually too low to be detected.

 

[golgiaparatus]

Hyperthyroidism

Wait wait wait... time the F*ck out. He has hyperthyroidism? That changes everything, thats his case right there.

 

[golgiaparatus]

So the plot thickens, the ratio has been reported at 11:1 which is insane, but hi testosterone level is in the normal range....that's pretty much next to impossible to have.

Source?

 

[MMcG]

While bummed yesterday, I'm gonna stick with Floyd. I don't think he took anything to deliberately enhance his performance.

But still it sucks and it will tarnish what he did forever.

 

[Hawkeye]

Wait wait wait... time the F*ck out. He has hyperthyroidism? That changes everything, thats his case right there.

It's in the cnnsi.com interview

 

[jacksonpt]

So the plot thickens, the ratio has been reported at 11:1 which is insane, but hi testosterone level is in the normal range....that's pretty much next to impossible to have.

Yea - that's what I heard.

The PTI guys on ESPN had a sitdown with the network cycling guru (I have no idea who the guy is, but it sounded like he knew what he was talking about, though perhaps kissing floyd's butt just a little).

He said that Floyd's testosterone level was actually a bit low... but that his epitestosterone was off the charts low. Since it's the ratio of testosterone to epitestosterone that causes you to pass or fail the test, he was able to fail the test with a ratio of 11:1 despite the fact that his testosterone leves were well within the normal/acceptable range.

They think it might have to do with the cortozone shots he was getting to help with the swelling in his hip - but that's just a theory.

 

[MMcG]

This Testosterone to epitesterone ration that his test failed - it seems like there are so many factors involved that could throw that ratio off.

This failed test is much different than a test that would show the use of EPO or some of the other type of performance enhancing drugs isn't it?

 

[Cant Climb]

It seems to me the Testosterone test only brings about suspicion and now the onus is on Floyd to prove it is due to a medical condition or he just a natural imbalance of the 2 (testorone/epi).........other tests like EPO or the blood transfusion tests are conclusive right off the bat.......this one seems to only show that something isnt normal but there are many possible explanations why it isnt normal.

 

[golgiaparatus]

All I know is that he'd better get on the ball and start proving that he didnt take anything before the B sample results come in because if it is positive for odd levels they are gonna strip him of yellow and give it to Pererio. Then he will have to still prove himself , and if he does, then they have to go and strip Pererio and give it back to Floyd... what a cluster F•ck.

 

[Zutroy]

Source?

ABC reported it on the evening news show.

 

[Alfred]

You know, Floyd was raised as a Mennonite, He's the last person I'd think to dope. He even went to his pastor to ask if it was O.K. to wear spandex shorts when he was racing as a teenager.

I have a hard time believing it. Especially since for the testerone to be of much good it has to be taken over a period of time, a single dose won't do you much good.

Do you remember when there was a huge news report on crack addiction in the Amish community up in PA? Was it Intercourse? (not trying to be funny, I think it was)

 

[Alfred]

All I know is that he'd better get on the ball and start proving that he didnt take anything before the B sample results come in because if it is positive for odd levels they are gonna strip him of yellow and give it to Pererio. Then he will have to still prove himself , and if he does, then they have to go and strip Pererio and give it back to Floyd... what a cluster F•ck.

I wonder if they will use US Postal to have everyone mail their jerseys to the next in line if this is true.

I sure hope it's not true. That would stink.

 

[jaydee]

It doesn't make any sense that Floyd would take an anabolic steroid in the middle of the Tour. It would have absolutely no effect except to make him fail a drug test. He'd get no immediate performance or recovery benefit from it. Some people naturally have T:E ratios way above 4:1, which is the WADA allowable ratio. I think the combination of dehydration, fatigue, thyroid meds, and maybe even the beer and couple of glugs of Jack Daniel that he admitted having the night before the test all contributed to the abnormally high ratio. Those are all documented in the medical literature as having that effect. But the media smell blood in the water and love scandals, so they go into a feeding frenzy and purposely misrepresent the issue and misguide people as usual. Apparently CAS has eventually overturned almost all the positive findings from this test. It's an accurate test but proves nothing about doping. The unfortunate thing is that the damage to Floyd's reputation is done and he'll have a really hard time erasing that, even if he can prove he's innocent.

 

[JohnE]

Now Greg Lemond is yapping about Floyd and Lance...

"In a veiled reference to seven-time winner Lance Armstrong, long dogged by doping allegations, LeMond added: "I hope that (Landis) won't do what another American did: Deny, deny, deny."
(From Yahoo sports.)

Yeah Greg, and how many times did Lance pop positive? None (confirmed!) and how many times did he win? More than you, now STF, and enjoy your place as the 3 time winner and second best American TDF rider.

 

[-dustin]

Lemond is a stupid ****.

 

[Zutroy]

Now Greg Lemond is yapping about Floyd and Lance...

"In a veiled reference to seven-time winner Lance Armstrong, long dogged by doping allegations, LeMond added: "I hope that (Landis) won't do what another American did: Deny, deny, deny."
(From Yahoo sports.)

Yeah Greg, and how many times did Lance pop positive? None (confirmed!) and how many times did he win? More than you, now STF, and enjoy your place as the 3 time winner and second best American TDF rider.

Ummm he's refering to Tyler...........not lance.

 

[JohnE]

Uhhmm, no, he is directly referring to Lance, but thanks for playing. Lemond has never weighed in publicly on Hamiltons situation (Although TH denies everything.), because no one has ever equated Hamilton, a gritty rider who is a proven doper, with Lemond. Hamilton also has never won the TDF. Lemond has consistently taken out after Armstrong though, being that Armstrong has won more and is more universally known then he is (Lemond).
Did you read the quote??

 

[rooftest]

Yeah - he said another "American." It makes more sense that he's referring to Tyler - Tyler's always denied doping. Although I'm sure LeMond wouldn't be unhappy if you thought he meant Armstrong.

 

[JohnE]

"In a veiled reference to seven-time winner Lance Armstrong", not a reference to Hamilton. Lemond has been after Armstrong forever, because he is threatened or jealous or whatever. I am sure he doesn't care about Hamilton, because Hamilton has been caught with his shorts down and has been proven guilty. Armstrong, on the other hand, has never been proven guilty, and has left a far greater legacy, both on the bike and off, than Lemond.
What part about "a veiled reference to seven-time winner Lance Armstrong" is so hard to understand???

 

[vitox]

"In a veiled reference to seven-time winner Lance Armstrong", not a reference to Hamilton. Lemond has been after Armstrong forever, because he is threatened or jealous or whatever. I am sure he doesn't care about Hamilton, because Hamilton has been caught with his shorts down and has been proven guilty. Armstrong, on the other hand, has never been proven guilty, and has left a far greater legacy, both on the bike and off, than Lemond.
What part about "a veiled reference to seven-time winner Lance Armstrong" is so hard to understand???

the part where you imply that journalists are always right

 

[Ian F]

the part where you imply that journalists are always right

Agreed. The "veiled reference..." comment goes against everything I was taught in journalism school.

A journalist's job is to report what has been said, not to make any comments or assumption about what that quote means or refers to.

Of course, few do this anymore... :mumble:

 

[rooftest]

the part where you imply that journalists are always right

As they say - "If you believe everything you read, don't read."

 

[OGRipper]

This Testosterone to epitesterone ration that his test failed - it seems like there are so many factors involved that could throw that ratio off.

This failed test is much different than a test that would show the use of EPO or some of the other type of performance enhancing drugs isn't it?

Well, it's like the OLD epo test, where they tested hematocrit levels instead of testing for the substance itself. They find an unusual condition and attribute it to a banned substance on the theory that chances are very low it will appear any other way. In my opinion the theory is flawed and should not be used in situations where the participants are physically extraordianary and the results will be made public.

 

[Heidi]

So Justin Gatlin, the US sprinter, just tested positive for testosterone too. Check out the Eurosport poll on him:

Do you think Justin Gatlin is guilty of Doping?

Number of votes : 3749

1. No, it must be a mistake 17%
2. Yes, ban him for life 39%
3. Yes, but they're all at it so who cares 29%
4. Don't know 15%

 

[JohnE]

the part where you imply that journalists are always right

Who is implying that "journalists are always right"? I am not one to beleive ANY journalist over ANY subject. Journalistic integrity does not exist anywhere anymore. Its all about selling papers/ragazines etc. $$$$$$
If yo have watched the Armstrong EPO controversy, you would have seen that LeMond, who you would think would be an Armstrong booster (Because they both went against the Euro cycling establishment etc.), never missed a chance to state, imply, hint, that LA was/is dirty and dopey. He never commented (That I am aware of...) regarding Hamilton or any other American cyclist. Because LA is the only one mentioned in the same breath as LeMond, and LeMond is threatend by that. Simple psychological reaction on LeMonds part.
Go whine about Bernard Hinault, Greg.

 

[sanjuro]

BTW, I am 5 days behind on this news, living in a campsite in Downieville. As I catch up to the big news, I want to believe Landis is innocent, and the discussion about the effects of testosterone seems to indicate that it would not be helpful in this race.

On the other hand, people believed that steroids would not help baseball players as they ballooned up in size...

 

[jaydee]

BTW, I am 5 days behind on this news, living in a campsite in Downieville. As I catch up to the big news, I want to believe Landis is innocent, and the discussion about the effects of testosterone seems to indicate that it would not be helpful in this race.

On the other hand, people believed that steroids would not help baseball players as they ballooned up in size...

Obviously, anabolic steroids help to increase muscle size and strength, which helps steroid-monkeys like Bonds and Maguire hit the ball a mile. But that occurs over weeks and months of use. And they do nothing for endurance; in fact they mostly affect fast twitch strength muscles, not the slow twitch endurance fibers that cyclists' legs are made of. Steroids cause muscle cells to retain fluid, and the last thing a climbing cyclist like Floyd wants is big heavy fast twitch muscles to lug over the Alps.

They do help with quick recovery from workouts, which is another reason bodybuilders use them, and the reason people are suggesting Landis would use them. But, despite what "doctor" Jesus Manzano (I thought he was just a disgruntled ex-cyclist) believes, a single dose has minimal immediate recovery effect. I'll have to be convinced that Floyd doped; so far the sports media have just tried to induce mass hysteria and increased ratings by mixing a couple of facts with a lot of unsupported speculation.

 

[Wumpus]

Floyd Landis' lawyer wants U.S. doping authorities to drop their case against the Tour de France winner, contending there were "inconsistencies" in the way the drug tests were handled.

Attorney Howard Jacobs said he plans to submit a formal request Monday to the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency that it dismiss evidence showing the cyclist tested positive for testosterone after capturing the sport's showcase race in July.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/more/09/09/bc.cyc.landis.doping.ap/index.html

Also Friday, the head of the French Council to Prevent and Combat Doping revealed that 13 riders tested positive for drugs at the Tour de France this year, and all except Landis had medical certificates allowing them to take banned substances.

Of the 105 riders tested, 60 percent had the certificates, said Pierre Bordry, who is concerned by the large number of cyclists who had such medical certificates, which are approved by the sport's governing body.

 

[SofaKingBanned]

wow, this sport's got more problems than baseball.

 

[Wumpus]

Landis Attorney Submits Motion for Dismissal to USADA
Landis Camp Makes Public Specific Detail of Errors and Inaccuracies in Testing of Landis ‘A’ and ‘B’ Sample

Los Angeles, September 11, 2006 – Howard Jacobs, attorney for 2006 Tour de France Champion Floyd Landis, today submitted a Motion for dismissal to the United States Anti-Doping Agency (USADA) Independent Anti-Doping Review Board. The specifics of the submission support Landis’ long-held innocence and argue that tests conducted on the athlete’s ‘A’ and ‘B’ urine sample from Stage 17 of the Tour de France do not meet the established World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) criteria for a positive doping offense.

Made without access to complete documentation and other test results, today’s Motion is by no means an exhaustive recitation of all defenses. Nonetheless, Jacobs’ request for dismissal still provides the scientific and legal basis to vindicate Landis.

“I did not take testosterone or any other performance enhancing substance and I’m very happy that the science is confirming my innocence. I was relieved, but not surprised, when I learned that scientific experts found problems with the test,” said Landis. “I look forward to restoring my good name so that I can focus on my hip replacement and begin training for next season when I want to return to France to defend my title.”

Based largely on the carbon isotope ratio (CIR) – the test that has been characterized by the anti-doping authorities and the UCI as a fool-proof method for detecting the presence of exogenous testosterone – the Motion focuses on three issues with the testing protocol and results provided by the LNDD lab at Chatenay-Malabry. In summary, these three arguments demonstrate that the CIR test conducted on Landis’ stage 17 urine samples does not show a positive result:

• WADA’s own protocols require that all testosterone metabolite differentials provide clear evidence of testosterone usage to find an athlete positive. Given the data, three of the four testosterone metabolite differentials tested in Landis’ sample are reported as negative considering the margin of error.

• The only testosterone metabolite that can even be argued as positive under the WADA Positivity Criteria resulted from an unknown laboratory error and is not the result of testosterone usage.

• The one metabolite that has been identified by WADA-accredited laboratories as the best, and longest-term indicator, of exogenous testosterone usage was reported as negative in Landis’ urine samples.

In addition to the analysis of the testing documentation, Jacobs argues “the single [positive] T/E [Testosterone/Epitestosterone] analysis in this case is replete with fundamental, gross errors.” These errors include markedly inconsistent testosterone and epitestosterone levels from testing on the ‘A’ sample as well as multiple mismatched sample code numbers that do not belong to Landis. In the case of the mismatched sample identification codes, the alleged confirmed T/E data on the ‘B’ sample is from a sample number that was not assigned to Landis. The differences in sample identification numbers also point to issues in the chain of custody of the Landis sample.

“Clinical laboratories making these types of gross errors could easily find themselves answering to a wrongful death lawsuit, and often do,” said Jacobs. “At a minimum, those laboratory errors must go to the defense of the athlete and must result in a finding that the T/E results are wholly unreliable.”

The ADRB is expected to make its recommendations to USADA within a week of Jacobs’ submission to the review panel

 

[jaydee]

Of course, this is the defense's interpretation of the evidence, but we can hope they haven't grossly exaggerated their case. It certainly wouldn't surprise me to find out that this lab had cooked the results, either purposely or negligently. They seem to be more concerned with publicity than reliability.