[EBasil]

Just a useless factoid, but Snow Summit has run the main chair during Summer since the early 70's, and every year since then.

TBB is certainly going to lose money and business, but it's a safe bet that Snow Summit's decision was designed to avoid making the chair into a money-loser due to insurance costs or a new claim(s). The saving grace may be the comment from the Snow Summit Prez to the effect that they don't associate claims or trail-cutting to "cross country" riders. That suggests they'll still try to tap into the $$ that have done them so well for the last 14 or 15 seasons and keep lifting bikes on the chair.

 

[Orvan]

I still have emotional scars from when Rabie and Pegboy yelled at me from the chair on my way down Summit run over the summer.

 

[El Jefe]

Just a useless factoid, but Snow Summit has run the main chair during Summer since the early 70's, and every year since then.

TBB is certainly going to lose money and business, but it's a safe bet that Snow Summit's decision was designed to avoid making the chair into a money-loser due to insurance costs or a new claim(s). The saving grace may be the comment from the Snow Summit Prez to the effect that they don't associate claims or trail-cutting to "cross country" riders. That suggests they'll still try to tap into the $$ that have done them so well for the last 14 or 15 seasons and keep lifting bikes on the chair.

GMAFB Ebasil. SS is just trying to cover their asses. The fact is that SS and Team Big Bear routed numerous races down illegal trails, and reworked legal trails into non-approved lines. The Forest Service never once tried to individually enforce trail closures, nor did Snow Summit. The Forest Service slapped SS on the wrist a time or two for the trail re-routes and use of closed trails for races, but those trails were used and ridden long before the 7-10" travel bikes came along. The Bullsh!t claim that DH riders cut the trails is just a way to cover up for the fact that the entire decision is directly related to the pending lawsuits...lawsuits that involve DH race courses....sanctioned race courses created and marked by TBB, NORBA, and Snow Summit.

 

[Kornphlake]

I still am baffled that 3 months of winter in the san bernardino mountains can create more revenue than 7 months of summer. Of all the people I know who ski, few make more money than I do and few spend more on their hobby than I spend on biking. The numbers just aren't adding up, I realize that there's a price cieling for mountain biking lift passes because the investment in equipment is several times higher but still I'd think better marketing could have turned summer into prime season at SS, how do they manage to get all those skiers there in the winter time? Not all of them are yuppies and rich kids most of them are average Joe's like us (who are just as willing to sue given a reason.) Why would SS think it in their best interest to discontinue lift assisted biking in a market where they hold the monopoly rather than build up the sport? Why would they want to limit their only revenue to a few months in the winter where they are in direct competition with several othe resorts?

Has anybody ever been to the resort at mount baldy? I remember hiking up the slope one fall day in high school and thinking it was (too) gnarly to ride on. That place could put big bear to shame if they were to open the lifts in the summer, it's closer, the road is better (although quite narrow) and the terrain easily eclipses SS in terms of steepness and uber huge rocks. With a little care in cutting trails that place could easily surpass SS and become THE so cal bike mecca.

 

[Brian Peterson]

With all due respect, you have to look beyond the people you know..... Go to Snow Summit on a good ski weekend... Hell, go tomorrow... You'll see the difference real quick. As a DH rider, we complain about the lift lines, but in the winter every lift there has similar and usually longer lift lines... That's why when I used to snowboard alot, I avoided being there on weekends as much as possible.

Brian

 

[W4S]

With all due respect, you have to look beyond the people you know..... Go to Snow Summit on a good ski weekend... Hell, go tomorrow... You'll see the difference real quick. As a DH rider, we complain about the lift lines, but in the winter every lift there has similar and usually longer lift lines... That's why when I used to snowboard alot, I avoided being there on weekends as much as possible.

Brian

There is more traffic during the winter, that's for sure. The question is if there is a market for a DH'ing crowd in SoCal. We agree that SS and TBB didn't work very hard to help themselves succeed:

1. Lack of decent trails.
2. Unsafe trail conditions. Conditions that could easily be liability issues.
4. No services for the novice riders. A fleet of decent long travel bikes would make it a lot easier to create new riders.
5. No naked cocktail waitresses.

Also, I've heard that Whistler makes more money per capita off the biking crowd that they do from winter sports, so your profit argument is moot.

Other resorts seem to be making a living during the summer with DH'ers, why couldn't Summit? If it's just about this one legal issue, then that's scary. If it's about Summit not being able to be profitable, then I say GTFOH, let simebody else give it a try. anybody? please, somebody?

 

[Pegboy]

Well, I've never been to Whistler so maybe I don't know sh1t but, I'm not sure I believe that their summer profits rival the winter. I'm not sure how they run their lifts but consider this, BB and most other chair assisted MTB venues, do not run their lifts at full speed during the summer. On top of that, they are only loading every other chair w/ people. So not knowing the numbers and just looking at the lines, if they were to load every chair at full speed, there would be no lines at BB and most other places for that matter, and that is only running one chair. Again, I've never been to whistler but as a skier I know that Whistler in the winter to skiers/boarders, is as wistler is to MTBers. Now take into consideration, weekday traffic summer Vs. Winter and the number of lifts that are open and I think you get the picture...summer doesn't make jack for profit if any. Winter works because families can participate. You can dump kids in ski school for daycare and there are alot more women who ski/board than MTB, especially DH.
Solutions? I think the best bet is to find a place that can be run Fontana style, Ie. shuttle trucks or busses. There .would be little start up cost, minimal operating costs, and if done in the proper location, it could be open year round. Also, if it was a descent hill you could hold National caliber races during the winter (Get a system to rival AUS). Obviously you would want something with enough area to run 10 or so trails of different ability levels, and maybe a park.
The problem? Well you still have land ownership/permits, liability and the question of wheather a place logistically exists and the time frame it woulld take to get this off the ground.
What are my oppinions worth? Well look under your couch cushions ,and there you go.

 

[W4S]

Pegboy, you ignorant slunt. You're making two different arguements, Business practice and business policy. Profit is a formula of expense vs. revenue, and what I mean by Whistler being more profitable, per capita, during the summer over the winter is that they spend less and earn more, per person, through bikers over skiers. That doesn't mean they make more during the summer, that means that they earn a higher mean profit during that time. That's important because it shows that DH'er will pay money to ride bikes at resorts, and resorts can make money.
Intrawest also invests back into the riding with new trails, and services. Do you think that snowboarding and skiing would be as popular as they are if there weren't rental shops providing decent equipment? Not too many people want to shell out that much money to do a sport they've never done before. Rentals makes it easier for people to become interested, and become consumers.
Starting a new place like you're describing would be nice, too. But it doesn't mean that resort riding has to go away.

 

[Pegboy]

Yeah, I know what you are saying about the profit vs. revenue, either way without the facts it's all just speculation. By the way, what is a "slunt"?, should I want to kill you even more dead?

Side note, There was a couple of shops in Vail that offered "real" Dh bike rentals, (one place had Giant comps and the other turner dhr's), they charged over $50/day and I tihnk it was actually closer to $100. They were rented out fairly often and sold at the end of the season, so I am sure that is a profitable venture.

 

[Rabie]

By the way, what is a "slunt"?

It's what you call the bastard that shut down BB. How do you even show your face around here anymore? Get the f_ck out of here, slunt.

 

[Roasted]

Also, I've heard that Whistler makes more money per capita off the biking crowd that they do from winter sports, so your profit argument is moot.

I woud love to see the numbers on that. We do ok in the summer but nothing compared to winter. And even on a per capita level, I find it hard to believe. Summer time guest is short stay rubber necker (3 day weekend average), usually not a big spender (ask any restaurant or high end store, they die in the summer still) and the room rates are almost 1/4 of the winter rates (Westin room minimum goes from 250 to 69-99 as a example). What you are saying doesn't add up. We would need to nearly triple the guest quotient in order for that to make sense, and trust me, summer time is slow compared to winter, there are no lineups here in comparison. Add into that occupancy, winter time we are 80 to 100% every week until the snow goes, summer 5 to 30% during the week (there is no one in town but us locals and the shore kids) and 80 to 100% during the summer. There is just no way whistler per capita or gross is anywhere near winter time (yet)

Like I said, whistler is doing well, but nothing compared to winter. Maybe you spoke with a shop employee. If that were the case I would be willing to bet that makes sense as bikes require more repair more often then skiis and are more expensive. The shops are probably making more money....whistler in general...more money than 6 years ago in the summer maybe....

(oh and surgeons make more in the summer to I bet...way more serious injuries)

[edit]
After walking home I realized per capita is possible. With lowered operational costs (less paid staff, lesslifts, one gondola etc) it is 'possible' intrawest itself is making more money per capita. My mistake. It isn't nearly as impossible as I first thought

 

[dhjill]

Other resorts seem to be making a living during the summer with DH'ers, why couldn't Summit? If it's just about this one legal issue, then that's scary. If it's about Summit not being able to be profitable, then I say GTFOH, let simebody else give it a try. anybody? please, somebody?

Because SoCal has the highest rate of frivilous lawsuits. The only reason places like Whistler can exist is because that kind of BS law doesn't fly in Canada.

 

[Fury]

Because SoCal has the highest rate of frivilous lawsuits. The only reason places like Whistler can exist is because that kind of BS law doesn't fly in Canada.

Maybe less so in B.C. but here in Ontario they're rampant.

 

[Roasted]

I still don't think on par with cali. The numbers or the resulting settlements.

Biggest difference in our law is the rarety of jury's to dole out the coin. Most of the time it is a judge, who tend to be more realistic with their settlements

 

[Kornphlake]

With all due respect, you have to look beyond the people you know..... Go to Snow Summit on a good ski weekend... Hell, go tomorrow... You'll see the difference real quick. As a DH rider, we complain about the lift lines, but in the winter every lift there has similar and usually longer lift lines... That's why when I used to snowboard alot, I avoided being there on weekends as much as possible.

Brian

Which really doesn't prove anything. How did Big Bear become such a popluare ski destination for so cal residents? I understand it's one of few areas in the reigon that offer skiing but I don't see how they could succeede with such a short season, poor conditions, and the fact that I know people who have literally never seen snow. Now resorts in utah I can understand because Utah gets a lot of snow in the winter in urban areas, it makes sense that as a culture Utahns would invest in ski equipment and passes, it's something they can count on doing all winter long every winter rather at a resort or on the little hill near thier house, much the same as we ride our bikes. Maybe I'm just stupid or maybe I just don't understand the allure of skiing but the way I see it when there's lots of snow around locals are into skiing, when there's lots of sun around locals should be more into biking, surfing, swimming, skateboarding, whatever. I imagine that the big bear norba national draws more out of state visitors in one day than an entire winter season of skiing. That alone should speak volumes, have you ever heared a commercial on the radio for snow summit saying in their annoying announcer voice "come huck our gnarly trails, pull a superman seat grab over a lawn dart jump, bend your derailur hanger on a tree stump that wasn't removed, and I don't even know what a derailur hanger is?" They promote the ski season starting in september though and continue to do so until the last bit of snow is left.

I guess my point is that skiing in southern california had to start somewhere, it wasn't something that the spaniards were doing in the winter, somewhere along the line someone introduced skiing and pushed to make it popular to a reigon where it is difficult to justify the investment in equipment and time to participate in. Why wouldn't they see it in their best interests to push mountain biking and make it just as popular as winter skiing?

 

[MikeD]

Why wouldn't they see it in their best interests to push mountain biking and make it just as popular as winter skiing?

I don't think I'm alone when I say that making DH biking as popular as skiing (and snowboarding, really, which I hazard to guess made a HUGE increase in BB's business in the 90s) would really, really suck.

Not only would having enormous summer lift lines drive me and some other serious bikers away from the resorts, it would produce many more riders to overcrowd this area's other ridable trails in the winter.

While I'm open to the idea of having new riders...heck, I actively convert any friends who will listen to me...I DON'T want our sport "mainstreamed," as so many seem to want to see it. I'd rather it was perceived as an entirely grueling or extraordinarily dangerous activity for freaks with a prohibitive price tag.

MD

 

[Kornphlake]

I don't think I'm alone when I say that making DH biking as popular as skiing (and snowboarding, really, which I hazard to guess made a HUGE increase in BB's business in the 90s) would really, really suck.

Not only would having enormous summer lift lines drive me and some other serious bikers away from the resorts, it would produce many more riders to overcrowd this area's other ridable trails in the winter.

While I'm open to the idea of having new riders...heck, I actively convert any friends who will listen to me...I DON'T want our sport "mainstreamed," as so many seem to want to see it. I'd rather it was perceived as an entirely grueling or extraordinarily dangerous activity for freaks with a prohibitive price tag.

MD

While I totally agree with you, I don't think SS has a soul, they can't care about the sport of downhill mountain biking so much that they are willing to sacrifice their summer revenue for the sake of keeping the sport of mountain biking obscure.

What it comes down to is SS doesn't want to invest in advertising and improvements to thier facilities for summertime activities. That's been quite obvious for a long time, with a law suit and problems with the forrest service
it's now convenient for them to pull the plug and save a few dollars for themselves, it has nothing to do with the sport.

 

[Brian Peterson]

It's true, they never promoted the summer time.... They looked at it in a "we are not making enough money, so we are not going to try and make it grow" way. Skiing is the bread and butter for big bear and they know it.

As for the Whistler numbers, I know my info came from the guys at the park. The difference here is that Whistler seems to be committed to growing the summer business. They are expanding the park and offering more trails to ride. Funny, sounds like the same type of thing that helps ski resorts grow in the winter. Sure, we might not get ladders and bridges and such, but they could have at least given us more than 3 trails to ride.

The Big Bear national does bring some out of state people, but it is only one weekend. Plus, from what I have seen, the numbers have been down at that race. But that is just a personal observation, no hard numbers to back that up. How will it be this year without the gravity racers?

Brian

 

[***MTB***]

i heard about it. i only live about 3 hours from it. and was planning to go next summer

 

[apexmadcat]

I feel that Dick Kun (the owner) will probable change his mind. DH brings in some money during the summer that he uses to pay for snow making in the winter. I feel that as soon as he relaizes that he needs the money things will change. Its just not going to be the same though. They are just going to be strict on the rules and patrolling the trails alot more. But only time will tell. When I am up there this winter I will talk to Dick and get his point of view. Maybe I could get some more light on this subject.

 

[Edgy]

That must have been in, what, 1950? Dude, you're OLD!!

True dat my friend, but at least I'm still active. :evil: