[gravity plus]

Lets say that God is real. I dont particularly believe in God, nor think there is a God, but that's besides the point.
First off: I'm not trying to make anyone upset, nor casue trouble.
This is a serious question.
Second off: This is a question a band sings about, the band shall remain nameless.
Some people believe Jesus Christ is the Lord. Since the Lord created man in his own self image, and there are homosexuals, does that mean that Jesus Christ is a homosexual himself? Could everyone be homosexual, just on different levels?

Debate.

 

[mr_dove]

homosexuals are not "created" by God. They are created by man (our civilization).

Does the fact that murderers exist make christ a murderer too. Christ taught the way to righteousness, not the way to sin.

the preceding is only my opinion as a christian.

 

[fourgivn1]

This makes Christ a Teletubby, since they exist too!

Seriously, I will have to say that homosexuals (and I do not mean this in a derogatory sense) are NOT created by God. There are countless accounts of homosexuals of either gender having a spiritual experience, getting 'saved' or asking forgiveness, and *boom* suddenly for the rest of their life they are 'straight' with absolutely NO desires of going back to the way they were. It seems to me if you are created by God a certain way, you really can't change that. I hesitate to call it a 'chemical imbalance' in the brain because I really don't know WHAT causes it, but considering God made us in His image, and considering the Bible condemns homosexuality, I DON'T think Jesus was gay. *L*

 

[Toshi]

I don't have a problem with religious people, except on issues like this one. And this issue makes me quite angry.

There are countless accounts of homosexuals of either gender having a spiritual experience, getting 'saved' or asking forgiveness, and *boom* suddenly for the rest of their life they are 'straight' with absolutely NO desires of going back to the way they were. It seems to me if you are created by God a certain way, you really can't change that.

Please provide a peer-reviewed reference of a study detailing the above. I don't believe it, and until you can show me that homosexuality is a choice, not just a way some people are "created by God," I'm going to treat your whole spiel as a bunch of unfounded Christian bigotry.

 

[RideMonkey]

I was created by gay dragons.

 

[The Toninator]

Originally posted by RideMonkey
I was created by gay dragons.

raised in a colorado ninja commune?

 

[-BB-]

Originally posted by mr_dove
homosexuals are not "created" by God. They are created by man (our civilization).

Does the fact that murderers exist make christ a murderer too. Christ taught the way to righteousness, not the way to sin.

the preceding is only my opinion as a christian.

Not "OUR" civilization...
EVERY civilization
Makes you , huh?
so IS it societaly induced?

 

[Damn True]

Originally posted by Toshi
I don't have a problem with religious people, except on issues like this one. And this issue makes me quite angry.



Please provide a peer-reviewed reference of a study detailing the above. I don't believe it, and until you can show me that homosexuality is a choice, not just a way some people are "created by God," I'm going to treat your whole spiel as a bunch of unfounded Christian bigotry.

The opposite ("unfounded gay rights propoganda" to use your labeling technique) is founded on equally spurious and anecdotal information.
Because a position is different from your own or perhaps runs counter to your own paradigm or schema does not make it bigoted. Tone it down.

 

[RideMonkey]

Originally posted by The Toninator


raised in a colorado ninja commune?

Yes, I chose the ways of the Ninja over the ways of the Dragon. Ninjas are never gay. God made Ninjas and god is not Gay so Ninjas can't be gay. Ninjas have tried to be Gay but they can't seem to do it. Its like the monkey trying to put the round object in the square hole.

I don't have a problem with dragons because they are sometimes gay. Dragons kick ass. The life of the Ninja is just more exciting, with the flipping out and everything. Dragons never flip out.

Ninjas don't hate. Neither do dragons.

 

[Toshi]

Originally posted by Damn True
Tone it down.

Ok. How's this, from http://www.outfront.org/library/fact.html :

Is there evidence that "ex-gay" groups and/or reparative therapy are effective?

There is no reliable scientific research to indicate that any change in sexual orientation has occurred as a result of these programs. There has never been a study published in a peer-reviewed journal supporting these efforts. Professional peer review is standard for all scientific research and proposed care. Reports of change come only from the "ex-gay" leadership and the practitioners of reparative therapy.

Could such credible opposition be wrong?

"Ex-gay" programs have been denounced by every respected medical and mental health care organization and child welfare agency in America, including:

American Psychiatric Association
American Psychological Association
American Medical Association
American Academy of Pediatrics
American Association of School Administrators
American Federation of Teachers
The Interfaith Alliance Foundation
National Academy of Social Workers
National Education Association
American Counseling Association
World Health Organization
Council on Child and Adolescent Health.

This seems pretty definitive, and to ignore the collective weight of the AMA (just to pick out one from the list) is to delude oneself. imo, of course.

 

[fourgivn1]

Originally posted by Toshi
I don't have a problem with religious people, except on issues like this one. And this issue makes me quite angry. Please provide a peer-reviewed reference of a study detailing the above. I don't believe it, and until you can show me that homosexuality is a choice, not just a way some people are "created by God," I'm going to treat your whole spiel as a bunch of unfounded Christian bigotry. [/B]

Actually, I can quite easily find examples of this....except there's only one problem. Almost all of the accounts I have ever seen were accounts of people who got saved - in other words, Christians - and the accounts were studied by Christians. That would sort of skew the results. If I try to provide you with results, what good would it do you or me? Go look for the results yourself, as I do every time someone says "Go look it up" or "Well, this is not true, because I have found this..." I go check it out. However, yes, most of the accounts are Christian, and I have the feeling that quite a lot of people out there think that 'skews' the results.

I would like to note 2 things. One, where in the world do you get the idea that the statements I made were Christian bigotry? Nowhere did I say I hate all homosexuals, or that God created everyone and I don't care what others think or any of that junk. I said, and I quote,

"It seems to me if you are created by God a certain way, you really can't change that. I hesitate to call it a 'chemical imbalance' in the brain because I really don't know WHAT causes it, but considering God made us in His image, and considering the Bible condemns homosexuality, I DON'T think Jesus was gay. *L"

This ties in with my second note. I said that I DO NOT know what causes it, and maybe I missed saying that " THINK God made us in His image, etc. I'm not perfect and I never said that I KNOW for a fact what causes this, and I never said that homosexuality was a CHOICE. I SAID there were accounts - and there are - of homosexuals going 'straight.'

The entire point is this. I stated my point of view, and I did NOT say homosexuality was a choice, or that I hate homosexuals, or any of that. I said that I do not think Jesus was gay. (Although I'm fairly sure I KNOW He wasn't gay.) I also said that that to me it seems if God creates you a certain way, it seems to me you can't change that. If anything that would tend to lean towards the fact that you CAN'T change something like being homosexual - yet it does occur, and has occurred.

If anyone here has been offended by anything I have said, I apologize for that fact. I don't hate ANYONE or condemn ANYONE for being the way they are, whether it lines up with what I believe or not....and I would consider it a favor if people would not assume I'm a bigot simply because I believe what I believe.

 

[LeatherFace]

Originally posted by RideMonkey
I was created by gay dragons.

I thought it was the joining of two gay ninjas

 

[LeatherFace]

I've actually wondered if Jesus was gay, because, c'mon, in his culture you were married by your teens. The whole "celibacy" thing was created by institutionalized religion. And he hung around 12 guys ALL THE TIME. And then there was the apostle John, who has ALWAYS been referred to the one "Jesus loved the most." Sounds a bit questionable, doesn't it?

 

[Damn True]

Originally posted by Toshi

Ok. How's this, from http://www.outfront.org/library/fact.html :

This seems pretty definitive, and to ignore the collective weight of the AMA (just to pick out one from the list) is to delude oneself. imo, of course.

Outfront.org

They are probably very unbiased.

But that was not my point. My point was that both sides of the issue are litterd with junk science at best, and more often than not, no science at all. Additionally, you don't enter a discussion with someone by calling them a bigot and hope to have a polite discourse. Fourgivn presented his opinion to which he is entitled, as are you to yours. You simply lashed out.

 

[Damn True]

Originally posted by LeatherFace
I've actually wondered if Jesus was gay, because, c'mon, in his culture you were married by your teens. The whole "celibacy" thing was created by institutionalized religion. And he hung around 12 guys ALL THE TIME. And then there was the apostle John, who has ALWAYS been referred to the one "Jesus loved the most." Sounds a bit questionable, doesn't it?

 

[fourgivn1]

Exactly, DT. It bugs me that ANYONE thinks I'm a bigot because I stated my views.

 

[RideMonkey]

The dragons say:

http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=bigot

Bigot: One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

 

[Toshi]

Don't worry so much about people getting offended. The good lawd himself knows that I don't.

Originally posted by fourgivn1
Actually, I can quite easily find examples of this....except there's only one problem. Almost all of the accounts I have ever seen were accounts of people who got saved - in other words, Christians - and the accounts were studied by Christians.

Wouldn't you agree that my post above in this thread is pretty definitive evidence that this "ex-gay" phenomena is either a) bunk, or b) only effective on devout Christians?

I would like to note 2 things. One, where in the world do you get the idea that the statements I made were Christian bigotry?

Perhaps I should have thought for a few more seconds to come up with a slightly tamer adjective. But I think that describing homosexuality as a choice, "a sin" (ok, not your words; credit goes to mr_dove), when that flies in the face of accepted science is repugnant.

I did NOT say homosexuality was a choice [...] If anything that would tend to lean towards the fact that you CAN'T change something like being homosexual - yet it does occur, and has occurred.

Please explain how these two sentences are consistent with each other. Implying something (that homosexuality is a choice, implied by the second sentence, and the one before which I deleted by mistake) is just about equivalent to saying it, yet you claim innocence in the first quoted sentence.

 

[-BB-]

Originally posted by gravity plus
Lets say that God is real. I dont particularly believe in God, nor think there is a God, but that's besides the point.
First off: I'm not trying to make anyone upset, nor casue trouble.
This is a serious question.
Second off: This is a question a band sings about, the band shall remain nameless.
Some people believe Jesus Christ is the Lord. Since the Lord created man in his own self image, and there are homosexuals, does that mean that Jesus Christ is a homosexual himself? Could everyone be homosexual, just on different levels?

Debate.

TOTALLY not applicable.
By this rational, God would get Zits, Boners (if a guy), Cancer, and also DIE.

 

[Toshi]

Originally posted by Damn True
Outfront.org

They are probably very unbiased.

But that was not my point. My point was that both sides of the issue are litterd with junk science at best, and more often than not, no science at all. Additionally, you don't enter a discussion with someone by calling them a bigot and hope to have a polite discourse. Fourgivn presented his opinion to which he is entitled, as are you to yours. You simply lashed out.

Ok. Point taken on your "lashing out" comment, which you are rehashing here. I read your first post.

As for "junk science" and outfront.org's impartiality, didn't the list of established medical organizations that refuted this "ex-gay" evidence sway you one bit?

 

[fourgivn1]

The definition of 'bigot' is "One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ."

Sure, I'm strongly partial to my own religion. I will expect ANYONE who is religious in ANY way to be strongly partial. But intolerant I'm not. If I was, I'd be all over this board denouncing the hell out of people whose views differed from mine, which I am not. My best friend is a Wiccan because he's a great guy. What one believes is their own choice and I judge people according to that.

And again, if anyone has been offended by anything I've said, I apologize. I'm prone to imperfection and making mistakes just as anyone is.

 

[fourgivn1]

Argh! Tongue-tied! *L* Let me sort this out.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I did NOT say homosexuality was a choice [...] If anything that would tend to lean towards the fact that you CAN'T change something like being homosexual - yet it does occur, and has occurred.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please explain how these two sentences are consistent with each other. Implying something (that homosexuality is a choice, implied by the second sentence, and the one before which I deleted by mistake) is just about equivalent to saying it, yet you claim innocence in the first quoted sentence.

What I mean to say is this. I did not say homosexuality was a choice. I said that I do not believe God creates us that way, because there's no reason to believe He does, given the fact that the Bible denounces it. I also said that I did not know what causes it for sure. I forgot ONE sentence. I forgot to include the sentence, "Going SOLELY bv scientific evidence, I can NOT prove to you that homosexuality is a choice." And I then meant to say after that "This fact would seem to imply that it is not a choice.....yet it does happen and has happened.

And YES I agree that all the evidence that the AMA has amassed IS swaying. So why is it that there ARE plenty of accounts of Christians - yes, they are Christians, although I'm sure there are other faiths that have seen this happen - who used to be homosexual, and then had a spiritual experience, and they were changed for life? Is the fact that it wasn't a 'scientific' experience or the fact that it was not monitored by a study suddenly invalidate every conversion that ever occurred?

I'm not saying YOU are wrong. I'm just saying that there ARE accounts, and just because I can't SCIENTIFICALLY prove them doesn't mean they didn't occur.

 

[fourgivn1]

Originally posted by -BB-


TOTALLY not applicable.
By this rational, God would get Zits, Boners (if a guy), Cancer, and also DIE.

*ROTFLOL!!!* I'm sorry but this just killed me! I don't want to picture God popping a boner after popping a zit. That is sacreligious or blasphemous or such. *L*

 

[fourgivn1]

JUST out of curiosity, I would like to ask a question.

How come a bunch of people got upset when I asked the question "How can other people live and reconcile themselves without any 'hope' of an afterlife?" but no one seems to be getting upset when someone asks if Jesus Christ is gay? Heck, I get bashed for defending my views more so on THIS board than on the others, and if anything, this would be a MUCH more controversial religious subject.

I REALLY want to know how Jesus being (or not being) gay is tied to politics. (I'm being somewhat facetious. )

 

[Toshi]

Originally posted by fourgivn1
JUST out of curiosity, I would like to ask a question.

How come a bunch of people got upset when I asked the question "How can other people live and reconcile themselves without any 'hope' of an afterlife?" but no one seems to be getting upset when someone asks if Jesus Christ is gay? Heck, I get bashed for defending my views more so on THIS board than on the others, and if anything, this would be a MUCH more controversial religious subject.

I REALLY want to know how Jesus being (or not being) gay is tied to politics. (I'm being somewhat facetious. )

You have a point. And somewhere in my "lashing out" I neglected to type in that this topic choice is inflammatory by nature, and probably wasn't a good idea. But we all get along, more or less, so no harm's been done.

 

[manimal]

Originally posted by Toshi
I don't have a problem with religious people, except on issues like this one. And this issue makes me quite angry.



Please provide a peer-reviewed reference of a study detailing the above. I don't believe it, and until you can show me that homosexuality is a choice, not just a way some people are "created by God," I'm going to treat your whole spiel as a bunch of unfounded Christian bigotry.

do i really need to get involved on this one? ok, some of you probably remember this debate from a few months ago. "peer-reviewed reference"....well, is my own father a close enough reference for study? my father was a married (to my mom), yet practicing homosexual for nearly 6 years until he became involved with a ministry known as exodus international which, through a relationship with Jesus Christ, led him to a "gay free" lifestyle for the past 20 something years. if you want "case studies", i can offer plenty but you won't find them in any mainstream media because proof that homosexuality is in fact a choice would disrupt the current relativity theory that "if it's ok for me then it must be right".

if you want proof toshi, i've got your proof and i'm not afraid to be intolerant of a moral wrong. what you call christian bigotry is actually something more along the lines of belief in truth instead of what the crowd says is right.

by the way, how many of you are aware that the homosexual movements' media marketing plan was based on hitler's "Mein Kampf"? so who's the biggot?

 

[fourgivn1]

Originally posted by Toshi

You have a point. And somewhere in my "lashing out" I neglected to type in that this topic choice is inflammatory by nature, and probably wasn't a good idea. But we all get along, more or less, so no harm's been done.

HE AGREED WITH SOMETHING I SAID!!! *L*

Sorry, but I had to say it. Yes, very true....we all get along more or less. Different people, different opinions, but no matter how much mud I get slung at me and no matter how much I disagree with something, I'll still come back the next day and look forward to logging onto this site and debating and posting.

 

[RideMonkey]

Who would win in a fight? God or dragons?

 

[fourgivn1]

Originally posted by tubby


by the way, how many of you are aware that the homosexual movements' media marketing plan was based on hitler's "Mein Kampf"? so who's the biggot?

Do what? Whoa....that's interesting (to say the least) if true.

 

[fourgivn1]

Originally posted by RideMonkey
Who would win in a fight? God or dragons?

A buck says God wins, but I'm sure logic (however far-fetched) can show how the dragon would win.

 

[ohio]

Originally posted by fourgivn1
So why is it that there ARE plenty of accounts of Christians - yes, they are Christians, although I'm sure there are other faiths that have seen this happen - who used to be homosexual, and then had a spiritual experience, and they were changed for life? Is the fact that it wasn't a 'scientific' experience or the fact that it was not monitored by a study suddenly invalidate every conversion that ever occurred?

The problem with the above is that these "conversions" are anomolies... blips on the radar, and anecdotal at best. I don't disbelieve that these people converted, but it's such a teeny percentage that it's statistically insignificant, and can be chalked up to heterosexuals who convinced themselves at some point they were homosexual and then reverted, bisexuals who find a life-long partner that happens to be opposite sex, or homosexuals SO devoutly Christian that they can repress their true orientation...

Some people can be convinced of anything. You can convince people that cell phones are making them sick, aliens control the government, and the Holocaust never occured. It shouldn't be suprising that a teeny portion of the population can be convinced they're not gay when they are (and likewise can be convinced they're homosexual when they aren't)...

Anyway, this opening question in this thread has to be one of the dumbest things I've ever seen on RM, and gravity you ought to know better. And fourgivn1, I wish you hadn't deleted that thread, I thought it was a good one. Maybe I missed some of the later posts but I didn't notice people getting angry. I certainly wasn't offended by the question. I think it's perfectly reasonable one for anyone that believes in an afterlife to ask.

 

[Tenaciousle0]

I think Jesus probably tapped that fine-ass Mary Magdeline a few times, but nobody wrote about it. Jesus probably had kids. Why is the catholic church hding the dead sea scrolls, because they talk about Jesus's kids, that's why.

 

[fourgivn1]

Yeah, well, you get enough arrows shot at you (case in point - this thread *LOL*) you retreat after a while.

 

[fourgivn1]

"Some people can be convinced of anything. You can convince people that cell phones are making them sick, aliens control the government, and the Holocaust never occured. It shouldn't be suprising that a teeny portion of the population can be convinced they're not gay when they are (and likewise can be convinced they're homosexual when they aren't)... "

True, but the problem with this is that all of the examples you quoted about people being convinced did NOT deal with that person's personality or sexual orientation. You can spend the rest of your life trying to convince me I'm gay, and I'm still going to dislike men, and go home at the end of the day and roll around in bed with my wife. *L*

 

[ohio]

Originally posted by fourgivn1
with that person's personality or sexual orientation. You can spend the rest of your life trying to convince me I'm gay, and I'm still going to dislike men, and go home at the end of the day and roll around in bed with my wife. *L*

Well they didn't deal with sexual orientation because that's what's in question. There's no question that people can be taught to love or hate certain things or people. As far as convincing people of physical feelings, people can easily be convinced that they're sick when they're healthy and vice-versa.

You might be a hard case, but not everybody is. I am also lucky enough that I've never been confused about my orientation, but I know plenty of people that tried and tried to be straight but weren't. Likewise, and ex-girlfriend of mine was, until we started dating, convinced she was gay.

 

[Tenaciousle0]

Originally posted by ohio


but weren't. Likewise, and ex-girlfriend of mine was, until we started dating, convinced she was gay.

Ohio is a mack daddy

 

[RideMonkey]

Originally posted by Tenaciousle0

Ohio is a mack daddy

LOL! Dang dude before she changed her mind did you.......

:devil: :evil:

 

[fourgivn1]

Originally posted by ohio

You might be a hard case, but not everybody is.

*LOL!* True....except I'm fairly sure that I'm not a guy who likes girls, but is truly a homosexual inside that is just so repressed it will take a lot of work to get out. I'd also like to chalk it up to not being confused about my orientation. *L*

 

[Zonic Man]

Originally posted by Tenaciousle0
I think Jesus probably tapped that fine-ass Mary Magdeline a few times, but nobody wrote about it. Jesus probably had kids. Why is the catholic church hding the dead sea scrolls, because they talk about Jesus's kids, that's why.

Whoa.

Although juvenille and somewhat sophmoric, he actually said something worthwhile here (not that you don't elsewhere, but this thread's commentary as well as this thread's subject itself is so filled with pap that comment's like yours, BB's and Toshi's are actually nice to see.

I bet Jesus was married, in fact, in order to become a rabbi in the hebrew faith at that time, one had to be married. If you interpret "rabbi" as merely teacher, I guess jesus coulda taught like 5th grade math or something and still be single.

I'm not gay, so I don't know one way or the other if it's a choice or not.

I'm not God, so I don't know whether or not She hates queers or loves them or what.

Tubby, if you like your dad more that he's not gay, good for you, that's jolly. But where in Lord's name did you filter such nonsense into your skull about homosexual "marketing" and Hitler? Also, Nietzsche an idiot? Have you ever read or studied his work? Or are you just saying that because of the quote Uber-thumpers love so much that "God is dead?"

 

[Tenaciousle0]

Originally posted by Zonic Man


Whoa.

Although juvenille and somewhat sophmoric, he actually said something worthwhile here (not that you don't elsewhere, but this thread's commentary as well as this thread's subject itself is so filled with pap that comment's like yours, BB's and Toshi's are actually nice to see.

I bet Jesus was married, in fact, in order to become a rabbi in the hebrew faith at that time, one had to be married. If you interpret "rabbi" as merely teacher, I guess jesus coulda taught like 5th grade math or something and still be single.

good point, It really seems ludicrous to think that Jesus wasn't married.