[ridetoofast]

having skimmed through this thread it reminds me of the left in general. you ESPOUSE the wonderful characteristic known as tolerance, yet if someone, SPECIFICALLY a christian, presents to you an opinion that is different than your own you are so quick to denounce them as bigots.
Toshi you were notably virulent of that trend I must say.

so i must ask the question why is that?

 

[ridetoofast]

case in point: who is discriminated against most in the media, christians or homosexuals? be honest.


special rights? perhaps a better word would have been "treatment". my son won't be allowed to bring his Bible to school because it may offend someone yet homosexuality is being taught in schools as a normal way of life which offends me. so who's getting the special treatment here? you're allowed to practice a gay lifestyle anywhere in the US if you please but will my children be allowed to openly proclaim their faith in school without being reprimanded? i think not. so you think the homosexual lifestyle is harder than being a christian? try standing up for absolute truth sometime and see what happens.

i couldn't agree more with this.

leatherface you might not want to admit it but books such as "my two mommies" are sure as hell going to be admitted into a classroom before the bible is, because to do anything less than to admit the mommies book would be considered discrimantion, yet omission of the bible is neatly discarded under separation of church and state.

 

[Reactor]

i couldn't agree more with this.

leatherface you might not want to admit it but books such as "my two mommies" are sure as hell going to be admitted into a classroom before the bible is, because to do anything less than to admit the mommies book would be considered discrimantion, yet omission of the bible is neatly discarded under separation of church and state.

Then you'd be ok with your child being taught Buddhism at school? Or may a different brand of Christianity, or Hindu, Islam, or maybe even Satanism?

The separation of church and state also shields your child from having someone else religion shoved down their throat. Don't think it would be a world of milk and honey if church and state weren't separated. Just look at Northern Ireland to see what happen when you have a country where religion starts to creep into everyday matters.

 

[ridetoofast]

its not that i want religion taught i was merely offering a scenario that demonstrates a preference for homosexuality for the sake of 'diversity', yet a bias against religion.

and there is a BIG difference between a child simply bringing a book to school to read vs it being part of the curriculum

 

[Changleen]

ridetoofast, you still are making the assumption that the choice of sexuality is the same as the choice of religion. This is not correct.

 

[ridetoofast]

i don't think so. i wasn't addressing the aspect of sexuality at all. i was merely pointing out that there is substantially more defference giving to homosexuals for the sake of pc, and please don't tell me that that doesn't happen

 

[Changleen]

i don't think so. i wasn't addressing the aspect of sexuality at all. i was merely pointing out that there is substantially more defference giving to homosexuals for the sake of pc, and please don't tell me that that doesn't happen

Why should we give the same amount of defference to a religion than to a group of people? Homosexuality is not some type of religious sect, Homosexuals are simply a subset of humanity, just like left handed people. Why are you trying to compare the treatment of two utterly different things?

 

[ridetoofast]

i was reinforcing a point that manimal made to leatherface. she tried to deny that defference occurs and i was making a point that it does.

honestly i think they should BOTH be left out of school. social agendas have no place in an educational curriculum. teachers have precious amount of resources and time as it is without bogging them down even further.

 

[Reactor]

i think they should BOTH be left out of school. social agendas have no place in an educational curriculum. teachers have precious amount of resources and time as it is without bogging them down even further.

I completely agree. Religion, mine or yours, has no place in school. As far as sexual orientation, I think 99% of the examples in school are standard families, so one book shouldn't be a big deal.

As for the treatment of Gays and Christians.. Everytime I turn to Fox news channel gays are being attacked, and every time I flip through the religious channels of Cox cable, so not all media is pro gay. Gays face a lot more hostile reception in person than Christians do, usually from Christians.

By the way, straight America is the breeding ground of gayness. Gay people don't have gay children, straight people do. Except for a few artificial insemmination cases, all the gay people you rail against today were born and raised by a standard nuclear family, or a standard broken family, because it's physically impossible for two women or two men to have a child. Adoption wasn't allowed until recently, and still is a difficult, if not impossible process for gay couples. And the last I checked research showed thet children in Gay couples had about the same chance of being gay as children raised in straight couples.

By the way, before I the inevtiable questions come, I am straight, I have a child, and no I wouldn't reject or try to change her if she turned out to be gay. I just happen to be good at putting my self in other people's places, I have a lot of empathy.

I understand America has been culturally controlled by the Christian majority (by the way it's down to about 52%, 2000 census) for a long time. I also understand that America is getting more diverse, America is not mono-cultural anymore. I understand that means some people are going to fear change. I also understand that our founding fathers did some amazingly enlightend things to prevent problems thay saw in other countries. One of then was to completely seperate church and state, so that Americans dealing with their government wouldn't have to fear unequal treatment based on their religion, or feel they had to adopt someone elses religion just to fit in.

 

[ridetoofast]

As far as sexual orientation, I think 99% of the examples in school are standard families, so one book shouldn't be a big deal. <----wouldn't that be the minority imposing their view on the majority? if the make up is predominantly of a straight orientation.

don't misconstrue my place i am not railing against them, i just don't want, nor can i stand the militant homosexual attitude. what they do behind closed doors is their buisness, however i should not and WILL not be forced to accept it.

i do get a bit tired of the good cop/bad cop position though, and by that i mean, oh give us defferential treatment we're oppressed, then talk out the other side of their face...oh we don't potray ourselves as victims which is what prompted my support of manimal.

 

[Changleen]

As far as sexual orientation, I think 99% of the examples in school are standard families, so one book shouldn't be a big deal. <----wouldn't that be the minority imposing their view on the majority? if the make up is predominantly of a straight orientation.

One (or more likely a few) book in a library of thousands? No.

Be careful, your current line of thinking results in absolutes. Absolutes are bad. Extremes of any type are ultimatly unhealthy.

don't miscontrue my place i am not railing against them, i just don't want, nor can i stand the militant homosexual attitude. what they do behind closed doors is their buisness, however i should not and WILL not be forced to accept it.

What they do behind closed doors is their business, yet you will never accept it? That sounds pretty militant to me. What if a child of your turned out to be gay? What then? Maybe you need to explain your position further.

 

[ridetoofast]

what the do behind...by that i mean i could care less, i.e. i don't think sodomy laws should be enforced much less on the books at all. if two dudes/chicks want to live together fine...i really don't care.

but things like hate crime legislation, proclimations of homosexuality as a comparable status to a minority, things of that nature are in my eyes complete horseshyte. these are examples of things that i consider forcing me to accept homosexuality. wait i forgot one...gay marriage.

what if my kid was gay...well i'm not ever going to have kids so i guess i won't have to worry about that now will i?

 

[Reactor]

As far as sexual orientation, I think 99% of the examples in school are standard families, so one book shouldn't be a big deal. <----wouldn't that be the minority imposing their view on the majority? if the make up is predominantly of a straight orientation.

[/QUOTE]

LOL. No it's facts. If some of the people in the world are gay, what's wrong with representing them in an appropiate number in school. That's the real world, not religion, not mine, not yours. According to the US census, 660,000 gay households couples, and 60,720,000 non-gay married couple households, and about 6 million non married couples living together. Lets show people as they really are. 1% of the coupls are gay, 10% of the couples are unmarried living together, and 89% are married, hetro. Then show the 40 million widowed/seperated or divorced people. The our children will have an idea of the real world, and how people live, not some candy coated fantasy.

<edit>

One last point, If you deny the reality of the world and don't want it taught in school, it's your religiious prejudice that you want forced on the school. If you want to teach your children at home and at church your point of view, that's up to you, it's your right as a parent. But in school they should be taught facts, without moral prejudice.

Invariably someone is going to ask about explaining gay to kids. I've already had to do that; one "Christian" 5 year old in day care called another "Christian" 5 year old in day care a Faggot. So I had to explain it to my daughter, not because school taught her, because "Christians" did.

 

[Andyman_1970]

Gays face a lot more hostile reception in person than Christians do, usually from Christians.

For the record, that's a very un-Christianlike way to act towards gays, that is if you take seriously what Jesus teaches................

 

[Reactor]

For the record, that's a very un-Christianlike way to act towards gays, that is if you take seriously what Jesus teaches................

I understand. There's a fine line here. A lot of people who call themselves Christians, really don't act very Christian like. I've tried using phrases like "so called Christians" to point out the difference but that usually goes downhill too.

I don't know what the answer is. So many "Christian" denominations encourage behavior that isn't very Christian. I really don't like dealing with these people, at all. On the other hand, I've never had a problem dealing with someone who seems to be genuinely Christian, in fact I've had some amazing conversations.

The fact is Christians, Muslims, Jews are more alike than most people realize. Even as a Buddhist, who is outside the Judeo-Christian religious tree, I've found common ground with at least some people of most religions. Christ and Buddha taught many of the same values, even if they didn't originate in the same place, or have the same justifications. Most people of most religions consider most of the same things "good"; Charity, forgiveness, non-violence, the search for enlightenment. And most consider the same things bad; Murder, adultery, theft, victimization. I am astounded more people can't find common ground.

 

[Brian HCM#1]

For the most part gays are born gay, some may have switched to the other side due to abuse and those are the ones that probably went back straight through those religious group brainwash things. Come on people it's not a choice for the most part, something in their brain triggers their attraction to the same sex and it does you with the opposite sex. Your brain tells you what you like and dislike, so it is what it is.

 

[Andyman_1970]

I understand. There's a fine line here. A lot of people who call themselves Christians, really don't act very Christian like. I've tried using phrases like "so called Christians" to point out the difference but that usually goes downhill too.

You make an excellent point, which is why I think Jesus says “narrow is the way” – most Christians think that means, well narrow is the way to Heaven………..well yeah kinda. The problem is most Christians have no clue of the Hebraic context in which Jesus taught, so when He says things like “eternal life” the knee jerk Christian reaction is “oh cool I’m going to Heaven” instead of a present reality, same goes for Hell. Most of the time when Jesus refers to Hell it’s a present reality of how people are living (mostly the religious leaders of the day), not “just” someplace hot that bad people go when they die.

Now where was I, oh yeah, “so called Christians”. Thanks to the reformation, most Christians faith is boiled down (reductionism I think it’s called) to a set of doctrine they intellectually assent to, rather than the present reality of how they are living today.

Another thing is Jesus is painted and faith in Him is painted as “easy”. But if you really read the Gospels, Jesus is difficult. That whole loving you enemies, that whole not saying someone is a “looser”, that whole if you have two of something you’re to give to someone who doesn’t have any of that (I’ve seen people who took this so seriously they gave one of their cars to someone who couldn’t afford a car, just gave it to them). Truly living as Jesus taught, doing that everyday is difficult……….most Christians don’t to be honest.

I don't know what the answer is. So many "Christian" denominations encourage behavior that isn't very Christian. I really don't like dealing with these people, at all. On the other hand, I've never had a problem dealing with someone who seems to be genuinely Christian, in fact I've had some amazing conversations.

Some of us take living as Jesus taught very seriously.

The fact is Christians, Muslims, Jews are more alike than most people realize.

He was an Eastern teacher………………

Even as a Buddhist, who is outside the Judeo-Christian religious tree, I've found common ground with at least some people of most religions. Christ and Buddha taught many of the same values, even if they didn't originate in the same place, or have the same justifications. Most people of most religions consider most of the same things "good"; Charity, forgiveness, non-violence, the search for enlightenment. And most consider the same things bad; Murder, adultery, theft, victimization. I am astounded more people can't find common ground.

As Christians, we are to love others unconditinoally regardless of their background, be them gay, Buddist, Muslim, Democrat, Republican, tree hugger, hippie, or frothing conservative fundamentalist…….

 

[Reactor]

You make excellent points Andy. Thanks.

 

[Andyman_1970]

You make excellent points Andy. Thanks.

Thanks for the props. My point was not to make excellent points to put the "beat down" on anyone as much as it was to show folks that some of us take this following Jesus thing seriously.

I know there are lots of, well lets be honest.......crap out there that is associated with Christianity. It's just that, crap, there has been alot done in God's Name that I don't think God approves of...........Mr. Fred Phelps comes to mind....... :angry:

So my point on here, most of the time on the PD forum is to show people in as real a way as I can on a message board that the 1-800-BIG-HAIR is not what following Jesus is all about.

 

[Reactor]

Thanks for the props. My point was not to make excellent points to put the "beat down" on anyone as much as it was to show folks that some of us take this following Jesus thing seriously.

Understood. You made some good points and I tooke them as you intended. I just wish more people would.

I know there are lots of, well lets be honest.......crap out there that is associated with Christianity. It's just that, crap, there has been alot done in God's Name that I don't think God approves of...........Mr. Fred Phelps comes to mind....... :angry:

The guy in Topeka. He's a real hate monger. Here's one of his Gems:

Thank God for the bombing of London's subway today - July 7, 2005 - wherein dozens were killed and hundreds seriously injured. Wish it was many more.

So my point on here, most of the time on the PD forum is to show people in as real a way as I can on a message board that the 1-800-BIG-HAIR is not what following Jesus is all about.

You're just too rational to be in the Political forums.

 

[Andyman_1970]

You're just too rational to be in the Political forums.

I thought Binary Visions was our "voice of reason" on here...........LOL

 

[Serial Midget]

I don't feel like reading the whole thread, was Jesus a homo or not???

 

[Brian HCM#1]

I don't feel like reading the whole thread, was Jesus a homo or not???

Yes, but only on weekends & holidays

 

[Serial Midget]

Yes, but only on weekends & holidays

Oh, I see. Like a timeshare with condoms in the ashtrays.

 

[Brian HCM#1]

Oh, I see. Like a timeshare with condoms in the ashtrays.

Maybe he was just into crossdressing He's always in a dress. I think the people he worked with excepted him though, thats kinda cool.

 

[Silver]

Maybe he was just into crossdressing He's always in a dress. I think the people he worked with excepted him though, thats kinda cool.

Nah, crossdressing isn't kosher (Andy can confirm that, I bet )

 

[Changleen]

Those guys are pretty white looking for living in the middle east. Even Ariel Sharron has a better tan than them...

 

[Andyman_1970]

Nah, crossdressing isn't kosher (Andy can confirm that, I bet )

Well said my son.................and you are correct:

Deuteronomy 22:5 "A woman shall not wear man's clothing, nor shall a man put on a woman's clothing; for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD your God."

As always, rabbi Google has the answers............LOL

 

[Andyman_1970]

Those guys are pretty white looking for living in the middle east. Even Ariel Sharron has a better tan than them...

I love those pics of Jesus wherever I see them, most of them have Him look like He's Swedish, with blow dried Clariol hair...........and a carpenter too boot.......that's funny.

 

[Brian HCM#1]

Well said my son.................and you are correct:




As always, rabbi Google has the answers............LOL

Does your wife only wear dresses? Pants were originaly ment for men, if she wears pants thats a sin.

 

[Brian HCM#1]

Nah, crossdressing isn't kosher (Andy can confirm that, I bet )

I don't know the June Cleaver look kinda works for him.

 

[Andyman_1970]

Does your wife only wear dresses? Pants were originaly ment for men, if she wears pants thats a sin.

Since I'm not Jewish, and don't observe Torah, plus as a follwer of Jesus I'm only "required" to follow His halacha (interpretation of Torah), which makes no mention of women wearing pants, so for a Christian (unless you're an out of context pentacostal sort) your question and or statement is a bit irrelevant.

The question was asked if crossdressing was kosher (ie permitted or acceptable by Torah for Jews) - I made no application to today, so please crank down the Christian hate a tad..............

 

[Changleen]

Deuteronomy 22:5 "A woman shall not wear man's clothing, nor shall a man put on a woman's clothing; for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD your God."

C'mon, you gotta admit that's freakin stupid.

 

[ridetoofast]

why? why is it stupid? im not a religious person but to just patently reject something because its religious and you're not sure doesn't speak well of that TOLERANCE gene you libbies are so proud of

 

[Changleen]

why? why is it stupid? im not a religious person but to just patently reject something because its religious and you're not sure doesn't speak well of that TOLERANCE gene you libbies are so proud of

So women can't wear pants? Ever? What is the reason for women not to wear pants? Why would any god not want women to wear pants? Why would he

give

a

f*ck?

I didn't reject it because it's religious, I reject it because it's frickin STOOPID.

 

[Changleen]

why? why is it stupid? im not a religious person but to just patently reject something because its religious and you're not sure doesn't speak well of that TOLERANCE gene you libbies are so proud of

Also being tollerant of intollerance isn't tollerence, it's appeasement. :nuts:

 

[kidwoo]

why? why is it stupid? im not a religious person but to just patently reject something because its religious and you're not sure doesn't speak well of that TOLERANCE gene you libbies are so proud of

"libbies" haw harr harr


The creator of the universe™ caring what shape the fabric hanging around your waist happens to be sewn in is in fact stupid. I just looked it up. Turns out.....stupid. We shoud tell gawd that, fire her and make up another one.

 

[ridetoofast]

so by that logic ANY religion, christian or not, their decrees are stupid.

the amish are stupid

the muslims are stupid

yeah thats great logic. you are a godless fvck and simply can't bear the fact that some people live by standards that you don't care to understand.

ive seen you say the bible is a crock of ****. i guess the koran is a crock of **** too?

and what does tolerance of intollerance mean...thats just brilliant, makes about as much sense as a self eating seedless watermellon

 

[Reactor]

Boy, this has gotten uncomfortable.

everyone should lay off the hate. I for one don't have a problem with Christians or Muslims, or any person honestly practicing their religion.

There are people in the world who irritate me in spite of myself. Most of them are "Christians" (Notice the Quotes.), there are the 50 or do major brands of Christianity and they predominate religion in America. Many of the don't really follow the teachings of Jesus.

I'm also irritated by "Muslim" Mullahs who use their religion to spread hate and terror. Unfortunately a lot of the people I deal with have a flawed ,or complete lack, of understanding of the religion they profess to be. There are a lot of people who see having a major role in religion as a way to power. These people are bad.

Again, I don't have a problem with anyone who honestly practices a religion, and people like Andyman are refreshing. But, I don't want someone else's religion forced on me. I believe in the seperation of church and state, utterly.

 

[ridetoofast]

as always you are the voice of reason reactor.

i dont so much as hate changleen, i just cant stand that smug attitude of his liberal point of view that christianity is bunk because it doesn't fit into his secular 'world views' i believe he mentioned earlier in this thread, yet he is always saying how tolerant and noble his positions are. its a blantanly contradictory position but he smooth talks right over it with his intellect.