[BurlyShirley]

I hate that ****ing statement. It should be changed to "Jobs Americans wont do for unfair pay and no benefits" WTF? Im finding this whole debate about illegal immigration just a little bit offensive. When I say that, I dont mean Im offended by immigrants, but rather by these stupid politician's stances.
If I hear one more democrat idiot say another thing about "America was founded by immagrants" I might stab my eyes out with a shrimp fork. No one has a problem with immigration you retards, the issue is ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION.
So yeah, certain parts of the economy rely on this labor, so what? Get all the workers you need to fill out the paperwork and get a work visa. If that's too hard, make it easier. The solution isnt to just say "Well, you can stay and keep getting exploited, but no one else can come" either.
****!

 

[DirtyDog]

You ever tried to hire anyone? This country is full of lazy ****s who think they should be paid a kings ransom for doing a half ass job.

 

[BurlyShirley]

You ever tried to hire anyone? This country is full of lazy ****s who think they should be paid a kings ransom for doing a half ass job.

If you provide fair compensation, you have the ability to pick and choose who works for you. Mexican or not, youd be able to choose the best workers.

 

[GumbaFish]

You don't need the best workers to do the kinds of jobs illegal immigrants do...That said I hate illegal immigration and think we should line the border of mexico with land mines, and even have signs that say if you come further you will be blown up. Sound absurd? Not as absurd as not having a national language...let the flammage begin!:redhot:

 

[Slugman]

If you provide fair compensation, you have the ability to pick and choose who works for you. Mexican or not, youd be able to choose the best workers.

We'll see if you still feel that way when your grocery bill triples...

 

[DirtyDog]

If you provide fair compensation, you have the ability to pick and choose who works for you. Mexican or not, youd be able to choose the best workers.

My point was that overseas people often have a much better work ethic than Americans do. We are a spoiled society and many people no longer know the definition of hard work.

In my opinion, the phrase "Jobs Americans won't do" accurately describes a societal problem that we have that is resulting in the influx of illegal immigrants to fill those jobs.

 

[Changleen]

What is fair compensation for digging a ditch or cleaning toilets?

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

I hate that ****ing statement. It should be changed to "Jobs Americans wont do for unfair pay and no benefits" WTF? Im finding this whole debate about illegal immigration just a little bit offensive. When I say that, I dont mean Im offended by immigrants, but rather by these stupid politician's stances.
If I hear one more democrat idiot say another thing about "America was founded by immagrants" I might stab my eyes out with a shrimp fork. No one has a problem with immigration you retards, the issue is ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION.
So yeah, certain parts of the economy rely on this labor, so what? Get all the workers you need to fill out the paperwork and get a work visa. If that's too hard, make it easier. The solution isnt to just say "Well, you can stay and keep getting exploited, but no one else can come" either.
****!

well, there wouldnt be illegal inmigrants, if legal inmigration was easier.

and its extremely hard. i remember when i went to school up there (it was a temporary student visa, no work allowed)... holy chit!! it was like asking the pope for a divorce... not to mention they require you to put up 1 years worth of tuition, room, board, insurance and every other expense up front in cash just to start the talking....

 

[DirtyDog]

What is fair compensation for digging a ditch or cleaning toilets?

Minimum wage of course, and whitey aint doin it.

 

[BurlyShirley]

My point was that overseas people often have a much better work ethic than Americans do. We are a spoiled society and many people no longer know the definition of hard work.

In my opinion, the phrase "Jobs Americans won't do" accurately describes a societal problem that we have that is resulting in the influx of illegal immigrants to fill those jobs.

So if Americans are too lazy to work and continue to leach off the govt. for welfare, you think the solution is to perpetuate the problem by letting americans get by by setting on their ever fattening asses because they make more money by staying on welfare than they would by picking oranges? Great plan.

 

[GumbaFish]

What is fair compensation for digging a ditch or cleaning toilets?

I don't know but they paid me like 5.75 to work as a janitor with ****ty freaking hours...good thing that was only a college summer job. And let me say my grades went up quite a bit after that fun summer.

 

[BurlyShirley]

well, there wouldnt be illegal inmigrants, if legal inmigration was easier.

and its extremely hard. i remember when i went to school up there (it was a temporary student visa, no work allowed)... holy chit!! it was like asking the pope for a divorce... not to mention they require you to put up 1 years worth of tuition, room, board, insurance and every other expense up front in cash just to start the talking....

My point is that it should be made easier for the specific purpose of migrant workers, so that they can be accounted for and subsequently taxed, instead of just allowed to continue on doing what theyre doing.

 

[GumbaFish]

Minimum wage of course, and whitey aint doin it.

I'm white, I did it....it sucked.

 

[DirtyDog]

So if Americans are too lazy to work and continue to leach off the govt. for welfare, you think the solution is to perpetuate the problem by letting americans get by by setting on their ever fattening asses because they make more money by staying on welfare than they would by picking oranges? Great plan.

Problem = fat lazy Americans.

Solution = get rid of illegal immigrants.

Hmm... You are right. Your plan makes much more sense.

 

[rooftest]

Minimum wage of course, and whitey aint doin it.

Was a janitor for $5 an hour in high school. Easiest job I ever had.

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

My point is that it should be made easier for the specific purpose of migrant workers, so that they can be accounted for and subsequently taxed, instead of just allowed to continue on doing what theyre doing.

i think that creates a paradox.

if you do that, the unskilled workers (janitors and farmers) will get visas easier and cheaper than the skilled b1 (engineers, mba´s) temporary inmigrants. which, besides being unfair for the b1s, will shift would-be legal inmigrants into border runners.

very different kind of inmigrants.
under current inmigration policies is almost imposible for a janitor in say, mexico city, to become a legal inmigrant, and to arrive legally to the US.

on the other hand, if you allow more legal inmigration, that wont help the unskilled either.
skilled inmigrants will flock the airports, because they are more competive than the unskilled. and the new cheap skilled labor will turn local skilled workers mad.....

in short, its pretty complicated to "open borders" hoping to get only cheap labor, because the skilled will displace the unskilled in the race for a us visa.

 

[The Amish]

You ever tried to hire anyone? This country is full of lazy ****s who think they should be paid a kings ransom for doing a half ass job.

so were back to unions again

 

[greg447]

I think immigrants should be able to get work visas easier, but i think that we need to inforce laws that prevent companies from putting migrant workers through hard labor for low pay.

A migrant workers union would be a good thing, but i dought it would be taken seriously.

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

burlyshirley. see it from the other side.
as of now, the best hopes for an illegal inmigrant are hold steady low paying jobs, often paid cash, because they dont have the papers required to get better jobs (unless they get fakes, but thats another story).

if you give them papers. then the incentives for those outside the US grow. now not only mexicans will run the border to become janitors. indian computer programmers would be interested (because once in the US they could work as computer programmers), russian scientists, chinese engineers and so on. and when they do that, that would make a lot of skilled workers in the go nuts.

unless you give the illegals work permits labeled "this permit is only valid for jobs paying less than 7 bucks an hour"

 

[The Amish]

I like my oranges cheap. God bless the mexicans

 

[BurlyShirley]

i think that creates a paradox.

if you do that, the unskilled workers (janitors and farmers) will get visas easier and cheaper than the skilled b1 (engineers, mba´s) temporary inmigrants. which, besides being unfair for the b1s, will shift would-be legal inmigrants into border runners.

very different kind of inmigrants.
under current inmigration policies is almost imposible for a janitor in say, mexico city, to become a legal inmigrant, and to arrive legally to the US.

on the other hand, if you allow more legal inmigration, that wont help the unskilled either.
skilled inmigrants will flock the airports, because they are more competive than the unskilled. and the new cheap skilled labor will turn local skilled workers mad.....

in short, its pretty complicated to "open borders" hoping to get only cheap labor, because the skilled will displace the unskilled in the race for a us visa.

Not if they were contract employees, requested by the companies...

 

[schweino1]

Im mexican, live in tijuana, not a big fan of the current political party but i will have to agree with them in this one....

i think a better way to express this is to add to the phrase: Jobs American's wont do" "for the money offered at the moment"

it will be idiotic to believe that you guys (us people) dont need inmigrants willing to do these jobs, the problem is that they are ilegal.. to regularize them with "6 month work visas" wouldnt solve the problem either, and an amnisty wont happen...

a better solution has to be developed..... temp visas are a good start... but none of these individuals will wanna go back home in 6 months... and they would loose their jobs if they do.... and we have to go back to zero... whos gonna do it?

whitys? dont think so.... they are not willing to to do it for such "small" but fair ammount of money...

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

Not if they were contract employees, requested by the companies...

that is very close to the h1b visa.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-1B_visa

the current quota is around 100k a year. as far as i remember, is expensive for the employer.
if they extend the quota, then the number will still be filled by skilled workers since its more cost-effective, companies who would gain more by hiring skilled workers would still outnumber those who hire the less profitable unskilled labor.

 

[D_D]

A migrant workers union would be a good thing, but i dought it would be taken seriously.

Would that work? The union would presumably try to increase wages but what would it do with all the migrant workers who are not members? The non members would just work for less than union workers just like the current migrant workers work for less than a native.

An intreasting thread from the lounge http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149690
It would be interesting to see how most immigrants would have handled the same situation.

 

[sanjuro]

If you provide fair compensation, you have the ability to pick and choose who works for you. Mexican or not, youd be able to choose the best workers.

This reminds me of TheMontashu's "I won't eat fruit unless it was picked by American hands".

I hate that ****ing statement. It should be changed to "Jobs Americans wont do for unfair pay and no benefits" WTF? Im finding this whole debate about illegal immigration just a little bit offensive. When I say that, I dont mean Im offended by immigrants, but rather by these stupid politician's stances.
If I hear one more democrat idiot say another thing about "America was founded by immagrants" I might stab my eyes out with a shrimp fork. No one has a problem with immigration you retards, the issue is ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION.
So yeah, certain parts of the economy rely on this labor, so what? Get all the workers you need to fill out the paperwork and get a work visa. If that's too hard, make it easier. The solution isnt to just say "Well, you can stay and keep getting exploited, but no one else can come" either.
****!

My company has a lot of Indian tech workers, and they have the skills, the means and our assistance to go thru the paperwork to work here.

On the other hand, I noticed our cleaning service is staffed entirely by Mexicans, most do not speak any English. While I am sure these workers are legal immigrants, it is pretty obvious they are the fortunate ones because there is not much difference between them and the illegals...

 

[ohio]

now not only mexicans will run the border to become janitors. indian computer programmers would be interested (because once in the US they could work as computer programmers), russian scientists, chinese engineers and so on. and when they do that, that would make a lot of skilled workers in the go nuts.

Any skilled "americans" that go nuts over smart, productive people coming to the US where they would grow the economy and pay taxes should be deported.

Those are exactly the people we NEED to immigrate, and exactly the folks that we're losing to their home countries after utilizing our (thankfully) still strong university system. We used to keep the best and the brightest from all over the world, and their descendents. That's how and why this country has been so successful. Now those same people leave because they can't get visas and there's more opportunity in China and India.

Smart people don't take jobs, they create them.

 

[ohio]

and an amnisty wont happen...

Why not? Reagan did it, and he's a friggin god among those that currently calling for the blood of illegals.

Grant amnesty, get them on record, assimilate them into society and tax them just like every other immigrant group that has collectively made this country what it is today (or was 5 years ago).

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

Any skilled "americans" that go nuts over smart, productive people coming to the US where they would grow the economy and pay taxes should be deported.

Those are exactly the people we NEED to immigrate, and exactly the folks that we're losing to their home countries after utilizing our (thankfully) still strong university system. We used to keep the best and the brightest from all over the world, and their descendents. That's how and why this country has been so successful. Now those same people leave because they can't get Visa's and there's more opportunity in China and India.

Smart people don't take jobs, they create them.

true, but those skilled american workers are a very strong political force.

 

[ohio]

true, but those skilled american workers are a very strong political force.

Aye, there's the rub


Why does it seem like everything I love about my country is under attack by people that claim to be patriots but clearly care far more about themselves than they do their fellow americans?

 

[BurlyShirley]

This reminds me of TheMontashu's "I won't eat fruit unless it was picked by American hands".

Wow. I think you missed the point entirely.

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

Wow. I think you missed the point entirely.

the point is that you cannot just make inmigration easier with the sole purpose of getting cheap $4/hour 2nd class citizens (besides the obvious ethical issue), because doing so would indirectly increase the number of skilled inmigrants who would piss off a strong political force in the US, unless you go out and blatantly stomp on the american free market principle and impose aws that would be contradictory to your bill of rights....

 

[BurlyShirley]

the point is that you cannot just make inmigration easier with the sole purpose of getting cheap $4/hour 2nd class citizens (besides the obvious ethical issue), because doing so would indirectly increase the number of skilled inmigrants who would piss off a strong political force in the US, unless you go out and blatantly stomp on the american free market principle and impose aws that would be contradictory to your bill of rights....

Allowing a specific # of work visas per year to mexico and making them easier to get than from other countries would do none of the things you just mentioned.
The US already picks and chooses which countries can get which visas and how easily they can get them. See EU countries vs. Non-EU countries...

 

[reflux]

Aye, there's the rub


Why does it seem like everything I love about my country is under attack by people that claim to be patriots but clearly care far more about themselves than they do their fellow americans?

There's a cliche in the estate planning arena: charity starts at home. This is also known as, take care of number one, your immediate family, and your descendants. F**k everyone else.

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

Allowing a specific # of work visas per year to mexico and making them easier to get than from other countries would do none of the things you just mentioned.
The US already picks and chooses which countries can get which visas and how easily they can get them. See EU countries vs. Non-EU countries...

i dont think you are getting the point.
even if you allocate more visas just to mexico, then it will be the skilled and affluent mexicans who would go for those visas.
the mexicans who emigrate to become janitors and farmers lacking the means and skills will still be outside the race for a visa, or defeated by the skilled mexicans. just like now.

i think chile has a number of visas allocated, but that was part of their free trade agreement. the eu vs non-eu is because people in poorer countries are more likely to emigrate, thus the us puts up higher barriers.

but even if you lower those barriers, the ones emigrating would still be from the most affluent and skilled end.

so what am saying is no way to just get the cheap unskilled only, unless you open inmigration to people, and give them work permits "to clean toilets only".
because if you open inmigration more (no matter how much more), then the fittest inmigrants (just like now) will travel legally.

 

[sanjuro]

We issue probably a couple of thousand work visas to Indian tech workers. The unskilled Indians cannot immigrate here illegally due to the distance.

There are probably hundreds of thousands of illegal Mexican immigrants, many of which are not qualified for anything but manual labor.

We could do the work visa program for qualified Mexicans, no different than for any other country. After we let in the thousand or so, the same problem remains: what to do about other hundreds of thousands of illegals?

 

[sanjuro]

If you provide fair compensation, you have the ability to pick and choose who works for you. Mexican or not, youd be able to choose the best workers.

Why do you think they make your sneakers in Vietnam? Your clothing in Malaysia? Your furniture in China? Because the labor costs there are zero compared to your average Wal-Mart employee.

Do you think the companies which hire illegals or even green-card Mexicans can afford to pay full compensation?

 

[BurlyShirley]

Why do you think they make your sneakers in Vietnam? Your clothing in Malaysia? Your furniture in China? Because the labor costs there are zero compared to your average Wal-Mart employee.

Do you think the companies which hire illegals or even green-card Mexicans can afford to pay full compensation?

Dude, go re-read the thread. Specifically the point where I said America needs cheap labor from mexico.

 

[sanjuro]

Dude, go re-read the thread. Specifically the point where I said America needs cheap labor from mexico.

Great, then how many work visas do we issue, 100,000? 1 million?

 

[BurlyShirley]

i dont think you are getting the point.
even if you allocate more visas just to mexico, then it will be the skilled and affluent mexicans who would go for those visas.
the mexicans who emigrate to become janitors and farmers lacking the means and skills will still be outside the race for a visa, or defeated by the skilled mexicans. just like now.

i think chile has a number of visas allocated, but that was part of their free trade agreement. the eu vs non-eu is because people in poorer countries are more likely to emigrate, thus the us puts up higher barriers.

but even if you lower those barriers, the ones emigrating would still be from the most affluent and skilled end.

so what am saying is no way to just get the cheap unskilled only, unless you open inmigration to people, and give them work permits "to clean toilets only".
because if you open inmigration more (no matter how much more), then the fittest inmigrants (just like now) will travel legally.

So you think that highly skilled employees will want to work 1-year contracts, and that companies will want to hire them for that short amount of time and expect them to be effective? Maybe to some extent, but I doubt that problem would exceed the current issue of having so many illegals.

 

[BurlyShirley]

Great, then how many work visas do we issue, 100,000? 1 million?

However many we need to. The more we issue, the more we get to tax.