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Just talked to a true American Hero a while ago...

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
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The Cleft of Venus
The guy was in Burger King where'd just gotten my daughter a snack. I noticed he had a Bataan Death March suvivor license plate on his car so I stopped and talked to him for a few minutes.

This guy was a member of the Army Air Corps at Clarke Field.

My grandmother's brother was a Bataan Death March survivor too. He was a member of New Mexico's 515th Coast Artillery unit.

These men were captured by the Japanese in Mar 1942 and served out the war in Prisoner of War camps at first in the PI then in Japan.

It's always great to talk to these men since they will not be around much longer. To my daughter (she's 12) WWII is some distant foggy concept in a history book. Today she learned a little history first hand and met a true American hero.
 

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,007
149
The Cleft of Venus
Westy said:
I have a now passed uncle who survived Bataan.

My great uncle passed away 5 years ago.

He never really got over his resentment towards all things Japanese however. Understandable I suppose, since that was not Japan's finest hour.
 

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
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TN
When I was doing PR in Hawaii, I had to give a tour of our base to a retired Marine guy who was the first man to shoot down a zero during the pearl harbor attack. Did it with his rifle, no ****.
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
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N8 said:
My great uncle passed away 5 years ago.

He never really got over his resentment towards all things Japanese however. Understandable I suppose, since that was not Japan's finest hour.

My uncle actually worked with the Japanese as a translator after the war but eventually had to quit after having problems meeting someone who he thought was on of his former captors.
 

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,007
149
The Cleft of Venus
BurlyShirley said:
When I was doing PR in Hawaii, I had to give a tour of our base to a retired Marine guy who was the first man to shoot down a zero during the pearl harbor attack. Did it with his rifle, no ****.

URAGH!
 

partsbara

Turbo Monkey
Nov 16, 2001
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yeah, it kinda wierd.... talk about polar opposites...

true war heros, not like the poor b@stards / b1tches who are fighting uncle GWs little revenge match...

i d like to take the leg that was blown off A1C _________ and shove it up georges corn hole...
 

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
9,900
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Hypernormality
splat said:
Those who say we did a terrorist act by using the A-bomb on Japan should talk to some of those surviors, what they went through no human should ever go through.
There are people who are still suffering the effects of the N-Bombings. Have you seen the effects? Photos of some of the 'survivors'? It's f*cking nightmarish. No matter what the Japanese did, that does not excuse the use of nukes on civilinans. There's no excuse for the treatment the Japanese doled out, and equally there is no excuse for the American action. Both are horrific war crimes and both sides should be ashamed. Two wrongs don't make a right.
 

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
19,185
17
TN
Changleen said:
There are people who are still suffering the effects of the N-Bombings. Have you seen the effects? Photos of some of the 'survivors'? It's f*cking nightmarish. No matter what the Japanese did, that does not excuse the use of nukes on civilinans. There's no excuse for the treatment the Japanese doled out, and equally there is no excuse for the American action. Both are horrific war crimes and both sides should be ashamed. Two wrongs don't make a right.
If two wrongs stops both wrongs from occuring anymore, Id say yes, it does make a right.
 

dan-o

Turbo Monkey
Jun 30, 2004
6,158
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Changleen said:
There are people who are still suffering the effects of the N-Bombings. Have you seen the effects? Photos of some of the 'survivors'? It's f*cking nightmarish. No matter what the Japanese did, that does not excuse the use of nukes on civilinans. There's no excuse for the treatment the Japanese doled out, and equally there is no excuse for the American action. Both are horrific war crimes and both sides should be ashamed. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Not using the Bomb would have caused scores more people to be killed/maimed had the war continued to the inevitable invasion of Japan. As for targeting civilians, WW2 pretty much threw the notion of non-combatant out the window well before the Bomb was dropped.
 

Wumpus

makes avatars better
Dec 25, 2003
8,163
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Six Shooter Junction
dan-o said:
Not using the Bomb would have caused scores more people to be killed/maimed had the war continued to the inevitable invasion of Japan. As for targeting civilians, WW2 pretty much threw the notion of non-combatant out the window well before the Bomb was dropped.
Too bad we didn't have it earlier to end the war -- Unit 731



On topic -- My dad thinks that his dad ended up on the Bataan Death March, but he would never talk about his years as a POW.
 

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
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Yeah, I know (Dresden etc.) it was not a pretty time, but having been to Nagasaki I think the use of the nuke was exceptionally awful.

As for scores more people being killed, the after effects of the nuke are still felt to this day. Hundreds of thousands have been affected by it. There are some truely disgusting photos of second and third generation 'victims' with horrific mutations. IMO no other legacy of WW2 is on the same scale.
 

Zark

Hey little girl, do you want some candy?
Oct 18, 2001
6,257
7
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Changleen said:
IMO no other legacy of WW2 is on the same scale.
Really? How about the freakin holocaust? 30 million people systematically sent to their death on basis of race, religion, nationality, etc. Pretty much trumps Hiroshima and Nagasaki in every way. :dead:
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
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Zark said:
Really? How about the freakin holocaust? 30 million people systematically sent to their death on basis of race, religion, nationality, etc. Pretty much trumps Hiroshima and Nagasaki in every way. :dead:

Not to mention the millions of dead Chinese civilians. The only reason that wasn't a holocaust was there are so many of them.
 

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
19,185
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TN
Changleen said:
IMO no other legacy of WW2 is on the same scale.
You're retarded.

Ever heard of Hitler?

Oh wait, you're the one that hates the jews for flying the planes on sept. 11.

Nevomind.
 

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
9,900
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Zark said:
Really? How about the freakin holocaust? 30 million people systematically sent to their death on basis of race, religion, nationality, etc. Pretty much trumps Hiroshima and Nagasaki in every way. :dead:
They and their childrens children didn't die slowly over decades. The holocaust was bad, but two or three generations later kids it doesn't cuase kids to be born with ridiculous birth defects.
 

sanjuro

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Sep 13, 2004
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Changleen said:
There are people who are still suffering the effects of the N-Bombings. Have you seen the effects? Photos of some of the 'survivors'? It's f*cking nightmarish. No matter what the Japanese did, that does not excuse the use of nukes on civilinans. There's no excuse for the treatment the Japanese doled out, and equally there is no excuse for the American action. Both are horrific war crimes and both sides should be ashamed. Two wrongs don't make a right.
So what was your solution to ending WW2? How many Japanese lives would have been lost during an invasion of Japan? Or do you think they would just give up, like they did at Iwo Jima?

I am not trying to diminish the post effects of a nuclear strike. But an extremely tough decision had to be made.
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
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The first bomb I can understand the rationale for. Nagasaki seemed to be the US waving its dick in the face of the Soviet Union.

Of course, given the rampant racism at the time (by both sides, mind you) sacrifing Japanese lives probably wasn't given too much weight.
 

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
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Why are we arguing which method of killing hundreds of thousands of people is worse?

But I will just say:

How many Japanese lives would have been lost during an invasion of Japan?
People always bring that out, but let's face it, Japan was ****ed already. There would have been no need to invade in order to provoke a surrender.

Anyway...
 

Toshi

Harbinger of Doom
Oct 23, 2001
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i saw "true american hero" in the thread title and immediately thought of chuck norris...
 
Also think about the deaths of further americans had we invaded japan.

We didn't realy know what the long therm effects of the nukes were untill the #2 generatin of the peope because they simply werent arround long enough. Had we not used them then other countrieds may have used them later and reeked even more havoc. So either way things would have turned out.....Wait, why does it matter? What's done is done and that will never change.
 

sanjuro

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Sep 13, 2004
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Changleen said:
Why are we arguing which method of killing hundreds of thousands of people is worse?

But I will just say:

People always bring that out, but let's face it, Japan was ****ed already. There would have been no need to invade in order to provoke a surrender.

Anyway...
Because we would talk about how hundreds of millions of men, women, and children died in the invasion of Japan, and its effects on the world economy and politics even today.

You think the flagship was going sail into Tokyo Bay and Hirohito was going to kiss Nimitz's ass? I saw this line about Iwo Jima: "With their customary bravery, most Japanese soldiers fought to the death. Of over 21,800 defenders, only 200 were taken prisoner (less than one percent)."
 

rooftest

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Jul 10, 2005
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Changleen said:
There are people who are still suffering the effects of the N-Bombings. Have you seen the effects? Photos of some of the 'survivors'? It's f*cking nightmarish. No matter what the Japanese did, that does not excuse the use of nukes on civilinans. There's no excuse for the treatment the Japanese doled out, and equally there is no excuse for the American action. Both are horrific war crimes and both sides should be ashamed. Two wrongs don't make a right.
What a surprise... look who's playing the "I hate the US" angle.
 

Reactor

Turbo Monkey
Apr 5, 2005
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Killing people, especially innocent civilians, is wrong. It's wrong in a gulag, it's wrong in a pow camp, it's wrong in a concentration camp, and it's wrong with nuclear weapons. Arguing who is more wrong is pointless, is like the special Olympics......the real chore is to try to make sure it doesn't happen in the future.

Have you seen any pictures from conventional strategic bombing on Germany? Especially places like Dresden? Civilian were killed in unimaginable numbers, there were firestorms that were so intense...well never mind...In many ways it was worse than Hiroshima. Tokyo was hit repeatedly by incendiary bombing missions. It's all horrific. But WWII was the most horrific war the planet had ever seen. There were more people killed in Concentration camps or Gulags than in combat.

To date, the US had conducted over 300 nuclear texts, including one, a high altitude 3.8 megaton air burst who's EMP knocked out communications in the entire pacific rim.

The USSR conducted numerous tests, including testing a prototype of their 100 megaton bomb, which generated a yield of 57 megaton yield. For reference Hiroshima and Nagasaki were in the 15-20 KT range, the USSR weapon was about 2500-3000 times bigger.

At the time of WWII very little was known about radiation and the long term effects of nuclear weapons and fallout. People were manipulating plutonium pits and triggers with their bare hands.:eek: There was serious debate about the possibility of a nuclear weapon causing a chain reaction that would destroy the entire planet, and they still did it.
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
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Changleen said:
People always bring that out, but let's face it, Japan was ****ed already. There would have been no need to invade in order to provoke a surrender.

Anyway...
Japan was ****ed from the very start.

You do realize that there was a near successful military coupe to take over the government and prevent the surrender even after the second bomb was dropped, very very few Japanese ever surrendered preferring to fight to the death even when failure was inevitable.
 

seismic

Turbo Monkey
Dec 22, 2003
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BurlyShirley said:
If two wrongs stops both wrongs from occuring anymore, Id say yes, it does make a right.

Ohhh - a "true american hero" ?? Let us use nuclear weapons on civilians if that make other countries bow down to the US ??? Nuclear weapon use on civilians can NOT be justified !

I am NOT saying that the Japanese did not do horrible things too - but sorry, - I will not accept that for an excuse for using nuclear weapons.
 

sanjuro

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Sep 13, 2004
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Reactor said:
Any one who thinks Nucelar weapons are okey dokey should have to see some of the footage I've seen. You'll never sleep right again.

EDIT:

Do some digging on this

Or look at this:

Or wiki
This is another funny one. Considering we have not had an American nuclear power accident in 20 years, there is some discussion by environmentalists to use more nuclear power.

I think everyone can agree than nuclear bombs are a bad idea. Since there has not been one used in warfare since 1945, I think the lesson has been learned.
 

Msisle Dad

Monkey
Jul 1, 2003
570
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Catonsville, MD
seismic said:
Ohhh - a "true american hero" ?? Let us use nuclear weapons on civilians if that make other countries bow down to the US ??? Nuclear weapon use on civilians can NOT be justified !

I am NOT saying that the Japanese did not do horrible things too - but sorry, - I will not accept that for an excuse for using nuclear weapons.
You have no clue. If it wasnt for the US and the RAF you would have grown up in a different, more frightening world..
 

Msisle Dad

Monkey
Jul 1, 2003
570
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Catonsville, MD
Changleen said:
Why are we arguing which method of killing hundreds of thousands of people is worse?

But I will just say:

People always bring that out, but let's face it, Japan was ****ed already. There would have been no need to invade in order to provoke a surrender.

Anyway...
You need to learn things from a 1940's global perspective and not from your little "nuke free" world. By the way do you know how many people perished during WWII?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties#Casualties_by_branch_of_service

Your just lucky New Zealand didnt end up a Japanese Colony....
thanks to the U.S........
 

seismic

Turbo Monkey
Dec 22, 2003
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South East Asia
Msisle Dad said:
You need to learn things from a 1940's global perspective and not from your little "nuke free" world. By the way do you know how many people perished during WWII?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties#Casualties_by_branch_of_service

Your just lucky New Zealand didnt end up a Japanese Colony....
thanks to the U.S........

No matter how many people died during the WW2 it dosent justify nukes. But of course.....that could be the next excuse if some president wants to nuke some state he dosent like....:rolleyes: "They have weapons of mass destruction"....."we have to nuke them".....:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
 

seismic

Turbo Monkey
Dec 22, 2003
3,254
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South East Asia
Msisle Dad said:
You have no clue. If it wasnt for the US and the RAF you would have grown up in a different, more frightening world..

Maybe you are the one with no clue ! Try to look beyound all your american heroes, your pride and your nukes..... there is also a world on the other side of the ocean.
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
38,155
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Sleazattle
Msisle Dad said:
You have no clue. If it wasnt for the US and the RAF you would have grown up in a different, more frightening world..

Yeah, all of Europe would be speaking Russian. The western front was little but a distraction so the Soviets didn't have to sacrifice and extra 20 million soldiers.