[Andyman_1970]

Wait a second.....this was no accident. This was a terrorist plot. The axis of evil sabotaged the michelin tires!

Couldn't you tell but the color of the tire smoke that they had been altered, and by the lack of car parts at Ralf's accidents that government agents trying to keep F1 out of the US...............

 

[MMike]

Couldn't you tell but the color of the tire smoke that they had been altered, and by the lack of car parts at Ralf's accidents that government agents trying to keep F1 out of the US...............

There's no WAY an F1 car hit that wall.... Damn the CIA......DAMN THEM TO HELL!!!

 

[BillT]

Michelin did send over the tires they created for the next race at France but they had the same problems. I do find it believeable that they could not produce tires that were safe given the 24-36 hours notice that there was a problem with the current batch.

 

[Andyman_1970]

Michelin did send over the tires they created for the next race at France but they had the same problems. I do find it believeable that they could not produce tires that were safe given the 24-36 hours notice that there was a problem with the current batch.

Ok, then the Michelin teams could change tires every 10 laps..........at least there would have been 20 cars running...........

 

[Andyman_1970]

There's no WAY an F1 car hit that wall.... Damn the CIA......DAMN THEM TO HELL!!!

.

Yeah that hole in the wall was smaller than the cross section of an F1 cars monocoque.................. neaky:

 

[blt2ride]

I don't understand how everyone's tires would be bad...that's just crazy...

 

[Andyman_1970]

I don't understand how everyone's tires would be bad...that's just crazy...

Because of the new tire regs this year the sidewall has become the weak part of the tire with the new constructions. The vertical loads the tires experience on the banking sections was debonding the sidewall from the belted "tread" surface of the tires.

 

[steve45]

Now if this had been addressed on Saturday, where the mod’s to the track could have been done and the teams qualified on the track in that condition that is totally a reasonable situation

the problem was addressed friday evening after he toyotas crashed, but because of all the politics you mentioned they didnt come up with a solution, all the michelin drivers went into the qualifying knowing that they may not get to race.

 

[BillT]

All the Michelin tires would be bad because the tires are custom made in batches for each race. In this batch they will make tires with 2 different compounds (one harder, one softer) and the teams will use the practice sesions on Friday and Saturday to determine which compound they are going to use. If there is a problem with the design it will affect all users of the manufacturer as they came from the same batch.

I would have had no problem if Michelin accepted any one of the FIA's suggestions as each of their suggestions would not have penalized the Bridgestone runners at all. To extend this to my mountain bike analogy I made earlier, it would be like showing up to a DH race on the Huffy, accepting the fact that your bike can't handle the course and instead of demanding that the course be changed for your bike, you accept your problem and just go real slow and maybe walk a couple of the sections.

 

[Andyman_1970]

the problem was addressed friday evening after he toyotas crashed, but because of all the politics you mentioned they didnt come up with a solution, all the michelin drivers went into the qualifying knowing that they may not get to race.

The "addressed" I was referring to was the changing the track layout (adding the chichane) - if that was going to be done, earlier (Saturday) would have been much better so that the drivers could requalify. But again to change the track layout to suit a team (or teams) that didn't have their act together is laughable at best, those teams were not dealing with the reality of the situation.

IMO the "emphasis" on safety was a bit of a spin to say the least in order to cover up the fact that the teams were essentially giving the FIA the finger and taking their toys and going home.

 

[Hawkeye]

I was at the race. So I am one of the fans that got screwed.

I agree Michelin is the one to blame here. Bridgestone drivers have been dealing with crap tires all season. Now Mich has a bad day and the world is supposed to change? Sorry.

While at the track I found it funny that the only cars that crashed were both of the Toyota's I at first thought it was just the combination of tire and car. But I have since read that other teams found signs of the tire seperation issue.

Those of you who had NASCAR comments about how this would never happen there. It DID happen there several years ago. The teams refused to race so the President of NASCAR went down to the pits put the support class drivers out on the track and let them race to give a show to the fans. And he then told the NASCAR drivers to pack their stuff and get out of town in the hour.

On Road America/Elk Hart. This is not a good place for a F1 race. While the drivers would love the track, there simply is not the support for 100,000 to 200,000 people there. Kohler is the closest hotel/resort and has room rates around $300 a night when there is nothing around can you imagine what the rates would be for a F1 event? Fond Du Lac is the next closest about 40 country miles away and that is a 10,000 person town. Not to many rooms there. Besides the stands are pretty small and F1 would loss a ton of money if they just had general admission seating (about $25 a seat less than USGP rates).

 

[Andyman_1970]

While at the track I found it funny that the only cars that crashed were both of the Toyota's I at first thought it was just the combination of tire and car. But I have since read that other teams found signs of the tire seperation issue.

Scott Speed's Red Bull car was having a left rear disbond issue (not to failure though) upon inspection after his practice session.

 

[Andyman_1970]

Statement from the FIA..............

"Formula 1 is a sporting contest. It must operate to clear rules. These cannot be negotiated each time a competitor brings the wrong equipment to a race.

At Indianapolis, we were told by Michelin that their tires would be unsafe unless their cars were slowed in the main corner. We understood and among other suggestions offered to help them by monitoring speeds and penalizing any excess. However, the Michelin teams refused to agree unless the Bridgestone runners were slowed by the same amount. They suggested a chicane.

The Michelin teams seemed unable to understand that this would have been grossly unfair as well as contrary to the rules. The Bridgestone teams had suitable tires. They did not need to slow down. The Michelin teams’ lack of speed through turn 13 would have been a direct result of inferior equipment, as often happens in Formula 1. It must also be remembered that the FIA wrote to all of the teams and both tire manufacturers on June 1, 2005, to emphasise that “tires should be built to be reliable under all circumstances” (see correspondence on www.fia.com).

A chicane would have forced all cars, including those with tires optimized for high-speed, to run on a circuit whose characteristics had changed fundamentally – from ultra-high speed (because of turn 13) to very slow and twisting. It would also have involved changing the circuit without following any of the modern safety procedures, possibly with implications for the cars and their brakes. It is not difficult to imagine the reaction of an American court had there been an accident (whatever its cause) with the FIA having to admit it had failed to follow its own rules and safety procedures.

The reason for this debacle is clear. Each team is allowed to bring two types of tire: one an on-the-limit potential race winner, the other a back-up which, although slower, is absolutely reliable. Apparently, none of the Michelin teams brought a back-up to Indianapolis. They subsequently announced they were flying in new tires from France but then claimed that these too were unsafe.

What about the American fans? What about Formula 1 fans world-wide? Rather than boycott the race, the Michelin teams should have agreed to run at reduced speed in turn 13. The rules would have been kept, they would have earned Championship points and the fans would have had a race. As it is, by refusing to run unless the FIA broke the rules and handicapped the Bridgestone runners, they have damaged themselves and the sport.

It should also be made clear that Formula One Management and Indianapolis Motor Speedway, as commercial entities, can have no role in the enforcement of the rules."

 

[Silver]

It should also be made clear that Formula One Management and Indianapolis Motor Speedway, as commercial entities, can have no role in the enforcement of the rules."

For the IMS, that is true. If you think Formula One Management has no role, and for them to even make that claim, you have to be living in bizarro world

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

Ok, then the Michelin teams could change tires every 10 laps..........at least there would have been 20 cars running...........

not necesarilly..
michelin teams could have changed tires say 2 times in the race, and given the special conditions they would have been able to demonstrate it was "for safety reasons", thus avoiding the penalties.

of course, i assume the michelins could last safely 25 laps...., even if not, then a 3rd or 4rd stop would have been as bad, in terms of points for championship, as the michelins are a handicap for the teams..

 

[Hawkeye]

not necesarilly..
michelin teams could have changed tires say 2 times in the race, and given the special conditions they would have been able to demonstrate it was "for safety reasons", thus avoiding the penalties.

of course, i assume the michelins could last safely 25 laps...., even if not, then a 3rd or 4rd stop would have been as bad, in terms of points for championship, as the michelins are a handicap for the teams..

In some of the banter back and forth they said the tires had a 10 lap life.

Eitherway:

Tuesday June 21 2005

The first lawsuit over the Indy farce has been filed in the U.S.
The Indy Star reports that one Larry Bowers, a Colorado resident, has 'filed a class action lawsuit against the Fédération Internationale de l'Automobile (FIA), Formula One Group, Formula One Administration, Michelin Tires and the Indianapolis Motor Speedway following Sunday’s United States Grand Prix.'

Bowers is claiming that the event was fraudulent, and that 'Formula One, the FIA, Michelin, the teams equipped by Michelin and the Indianapolis Motor Speedway forged an agreement allowing the Michelin teams to participate in the formation lap and then exit the track prior to the start of the race.'

'The alleged 'race' participated by just three teams did not constitute a true grand prix race under FIA and Formula One rules in that the race was started with an insufficient number of participants,' the lawsuit declares.

Bowers is seeking reimbursement for the five tickets he bought for the event and 'other costs' he spent as part of his attendance.>>

It looks like Ecclestone is saying that by taking part in the formation lap, that ended any obligation that the teams had to the race promoter, perhaps anticipating the potential lawsuit that is being discussed, where Indy will sue the FIA to recoup costs of putting on the race

 

[BillT]

If Michelin knew their tires were a safety hazard, why did they let them qualify on Saturday? If the Michelin teams thought they were going race on Sunday, why did Trulli qualify on pole with a thimble full of gas?

 

[Hawkeye]

Good questions.

I have a feeling that "Tiregate 05" is going to cost Kimi and Alonso their shot at the title this year.

FIA is going to strip them of all their points I bet.

 

[math2014]

Michy is rediculus

 

[BillT]

Toyota knew that they were not going to race on Sunday so they gave Trulli a thimble full of gas so he would have a great shot at pole and make his team and their sponsors happy by getting all the publicity that comes with winning pole. I've got a feeling that there will be some harsh penalties handed out beyond the zero points scored by the Michelin teams this past Sunday. While I'm a big Schumacher and Ferrari fan, I really don't want to see him win a title this way if the Michelin teams are stripped of further points, etc. I really like Kimi and wanted him to do well this year - so he can take over the reigns at Ferrari when MS retires.

 

[spookydave]

I don't blame Larry Bowers at all.
Just think, he could have went over to IRP and watched a great sprint car race for a fraction of the cost.

 

[Andyman_1970]

Good questions.

I have a feeling that "Tiregate 05" is going to cost Kimi and Alonso their shot at the title this year.

FIA is going to strip them of all their points I bet.

Yeah I think something like that will likely happen, the constructors will also loose their points as well I would imagine.

It seems to have boiled down to the FIA not doing what the teams asked (out side the rules mind you) so the teams, not liking the answer they got from the FIA packed up their toys and went home without even giving a blink to the fans..........the very people who make the sport possible.

The French GP in 2 weeks is going to be intersting.

 

[Andyman_1970]

Toyota knew that they were not going to race on Sunday so they gave Trulli a thimble full of gas so he would have a great shot at pole and make his team and their sponsors happy by getting all the publicity that comes with winning pole.

Yeah Toyota was pretty transparent about the fact that even with a chichane Jarno was not going to be able to do a practice lap with the fuel he had onboard.

For me, this just reienforces the political and premeditated aspect of this mess.

I love F1 but this is very discouraging to see transpire.

 

[BillT]

For better or worse, the next couple of days will be interesting for F1.

 

[steve45]

Good questions.

I have a feeling that "Tiregate 05" is going to cost Kimi and Alonso their shot at the title this year.

FIA is going to strip them of all their points I bet.

i cant see it happening, all michelin runners whould have their points stripped and it would damage F1's reputation a lot more than it has now.
if this does happen i will not be watching F1 this season or the next.
i think that it would be pathetic and wholely unfair. it wasnt the drivers call, they wanted to race, the team makes the call.

i think making michelin and the teams split the cost(approx 16 million) between them of refunding the fans would be a fitting punishment.
michelin should be punished approriatly and seperatly.

i've had it with the FIA, if they are going to put the teams up in dicaplinary hearing, for damaging the sport last weekend.
then the teams should put the FIA up for ruining the sport over the last couple of decades.

this whole situation has been blown HUGELY out of proportion, but because of the politics and in-fighting in F1 at the moment its just gone too far.
as people have said before i belive this will be the straw that breaks the camels back.


BRING ON THE BREAKAWAY SERIES !!!!

 

[Hawkeye]

If the teams are stripped of all points, do they even bother racing the French?

IF the teams are suspended who will race the French (Just Bridgestone again)?

Does Toyota get the worst of it because they have seemed to think this was going to happen before hand (the gas issue)?


This is just starting to get good.

 

[Andyman_1970]

I don't know about loosing all their points, but I can see the constructors loosing points - but why penalize the drivers for something they had no control over.

Look how harsh the FIA was with BAR when they tried to hide their extra fuel tank.................

 

[Andyman_1970]

I'll be the N8 of the F1 stuff on here...........

From Speedtv.com:

The seven Michelin teams summoned by the FIA for boycotting the USGP at Indy will face serious charges when they appear at a World Motor Sport Council hearing on June 29 to justify their acts. Formula 1’s governing body has made public on its website the contents of the correspondence sent to the squads - Renault, McLaren-Mercedes, Toyota, Williams-BMW, BAR-Honda, Sauber and Red Bull - leaving little doubt of how deep the FIA intends to go with the matter.

The letter asks the outfits’ principals to attend the hearing - “in which you may be assisted by the counsel of your choice” - to “answer charges that you have committed one or more acts prejudicial to the interests of a competition, namely the 2005 United States Grand Prix, and/or to the interests of motor sport generally,” as defined by Article 151c of the FIA’s International Sporting Code.

The “prejudicial acts” listed are:

“-failed to ensure that you had a supply of suitable tires for the race and/or
-wrongfully refused to allow your cars to start the race and/or
-wrongfully refused to allow your cars to race, subject to a speed restriction in one corner which was safe for such tires as they had available and/or
-combined with other teams to make a demonstration damaging to the image of Formula 1 by pulling into the pits immediately before the start of the race and failed to notify the stewards of your intention not to race, in breach of Article 131 of the FIA Formula 1 Sporting Regulations.”

The mentioned article mandates that the starting grid will be published four hours prior to the start of a race, and that competitors willing to withdraw from the competition must inform race stewards “no later than 45 minutes” before the start of the race.

The letter wraps up notifying that a full dossier detailing the charges will be sent to the teams “within 48 hours.”

 

[Andyman_1970]

Some more from Speedtv.com............

A report from French news agency AFP reveals that the FIA could order the seven Michelin-shod Formula 1 squads that boycotted last week's United States Grand Prix to pay a collective fine of circa $16 million, destined to refund the paying customers who attended the event at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway.

F1's governing body has scheduled a World Motor Sport Council hearing for June 29, in which the teams - Renault, McLaren-Mercedes, Toyota, Williams-BMW, BAR-Honda, Sauber and Red Bull - will have to answer to accusations of disrespecting articles 151c and 131 of the FIA's International Sporting Code (click here for story).

Yet since sanctions similar to the two-race ban applied to BAR-Honda after it ran illegal cars at the San Marino GP would in effect render the 2005 championship unviable - a repeat of the six-cars-only USGP grid is certainly the last thing on the FIA's mind - the possibility of financial punishment looks increasingly likely.

"I think Michelin and the seven teams should compensate the fans," FIA president Max Mosley has been quoted as saying.

F1 action resumes with tire testing...

The main characters of the USGP fiasco - tires - are again the center of attention as F1's squads go back to work this week.

Ironically, the Bridgestone and Michelin teams again won't go head-to-head, as Ferrari will be the sole conductor of testing for the Japanese marque at Barcelona beginning today (Tuesday) before being joined by Jordan on Thursday, while all Michelin teams bar Red Bull are expected to start working at the Jerez circuit, also in Spain, on Wednesday.

The French tiremaker has already stated that it won't be evaluating the Indy tire to assess the causes for its product's several failures at IMS, choosing instead to focus on finding the appropriate compound for the next race of the 2005 championship, the French GP on July 3.

 

[steve45]

If the teams are stripped of all points, do they even bother racing the French?

IF the teams are suspended who will race the French (Just Bridgestone again)?

Does Toyota get the worst of it because they have seemed to think this was going to happen before hand (the gas issue)?


This is just starting to get good.

well its already been said that they wouldnt suspend the teams, and as i said i cant see them stripping the drivers of points, but constructors points maybe.
to be honest i think that if any action is taken it will be finacial as it is the only action that wont damage the F1 any further.
but i dont think the teams should be punished anyway, this is michelins problem now, let them sort it out and let the teams get back to racing.

where did the info about toyotas fuel level come from?
from the time the toyota posted in quali i would have geussed they'd be running about 15 laps worth(3 stopper). less fuel than the likes of mclaren(2 stopper), but as proven in previous races, it could work out well putting them well up into the points even on the podium(had they raced)

 

[Andyman_1970]

but i dont think the teams should be punished anyway, this is michelins problem now, let them sort it out and let the teams get back to racing.

I disagree, the teams made a political decision to threaten the FIA with "do it our way or we don't race" and the FIA said "ok whatever" and held the race - this was purely a policial "pissing contest" with heavy undertones of the whole breakaway GRWC thing.

They could have participated in the race, would it have been their best race? No, they had crappy tires, that's Michelin's fault - but ultimately the teams made the decision not to race - the "safety" issue was just a spin to make it look less political than their move actually was.

I think Peter Windsor (Speed/F1 commentator) summed it up best:

WINDSOR: “I think this business about the Michelin tires being unsafe to race has been exaggerated by the teams and, indeed, by Michelin, because as far as I understand it, they were only considered to be unsafe, by Michelin, on one very specific corner. And talking to a lot of the drivers, there were ways of getting around that corner, reducing the amount of load that was going through it – obviously we are talking about Turn 13, the vertical load. So, I think first of all, we need to be very careful about “the tires were unsafe.” I think they were unsafe, but unsafe when used in a specific way. Beyond that, I am as shattered as anyone else. I love Formula One. I’ve been involved for 30 years and to see that happen on the warm-up lap, the formation lap, all those cars coming in like that, I think it was an absolute disgrace. To be honest, our obligation in this sport, or any sport is to the fans and for that to happen is just appalling.”

“I think the Michelin was naïve in thinking that there would be a solution that falls outside the framework of the Formula One regulations … because they suggested a chicane that makes cars go slower through Turn 13, but that was never going to happen in a million years. The FIA, the governing body of the sport – this is the governing body that disqualifies cars for having a brake duct half a millimeter too large – they are never going to put in a chicane in on race morning, around which the cars are not allowed to practice or do anything at all … equally, there was talk about using another batch of tires, but that was never going to happen either.”

“Tell me where the difference is in what happened today and what might happen at any Grand Prix where there is a sudden downpour and one tire company, on intermediate tires, with no grip at all, everybody spins off on the straight and there is only five cars left in the race. That’s happened before and everyone thinks ‘Wow, what a great race.’ They should have been out there racing and if there are problems, you drive around the problems as best you can. Racers are racers.”

“It’s the teams, these massively paid teams and drivers, who have a responsibility to the fans … not one of those Michelin team guys said ‘We made a horrendous mistake today and we take full responsibility. All they did was blame the FIA, blame Bernie, blame Ferrari, blame Bridgestone, blame everyone else, but they never actually blamed themselves. Do you know how many teams from Michelin actually did the pre-USA tire test to select the correct tire for Indianapolis? … Two – Felipe Massa and Anthony Davidson – everyone else was at Silverstone.”

“One of the watersheds of today was that Bernie Ecclestone stared people in the eye, literally eyeball to eyeball before the race, and said you are going to get in that car and race – not to the drivers, but to the team owners … and they stared him back. At the end of the day, in this particular situation, the eyeballing didn’t work for Bernie. It’s the first time I can remember it not working for him and there will be repercussions.”

“F1 is about people getting out there and going motor racing. We race in the rain. We race in the wind. We race in the hail. We race in the hot weather. And we have tire failures and lots of other terrible things, but that’s what Formula One is all about, for good and for bad.”

 

[BillT]

When they were discussing the possibility of installing a chicane during the SpeedTv coverage of the race, they said that they were going to allow 3 recon laps of the track with the chicane so the drivers could get used to it. Toyota said they didn't have enough fuel in Trulli's car to do 3 laps, do the parade lap, and then complete the first lap of the race. Toyota knew all along that there wasn't going to be race and just wanted to get the pole and the publicity that follows.

 

[golgiaparatus]

If they aren't scoring points then they don't need to be out there - its not a parade. How would like to explain to Ferrari if hothead Montoya in a non points scoring Michelin car punted Michael Schumacher off the track because he was pissed? While I didn't like it, the FIA did what they had to do - your blame should be on Michelin for bring a big pile of monkey crap to the USGP and expecting their teams to race on it.

 

[Hawkeye]

where did the info about toyotas fuel level come from?
from the time the toyota posted in quali i would have geussed they'd be running about 15 laps worth(3 stopper). less fuel than the likes of mclaren(2 stopper), but as proven in previous races, it could work out well putting them well up into the points even on the podium(had they raced)

Bill has answered this question a couple of posts below yours and above this one.

 

[Brian Peterson]

No real need to dock points... All the people and teams that didn't race just lost any potential points from that race. A big zero on the tally doesn't help much.

I like the idea of making Michelin and the teams pay the money to reimburse the fans. With this much drama, I may start watching more F1!! It is like a soap opera with really fast cars!

Brian

 

[N8 v2.0]

They don't have this problem with a NASCAR race.

 

[BillT]

Very true and despite all the criticism NASCAR takes from various 'racing purists' (they only turn left, no skill, etc), NASCAR doesn't have a problem filling the stands, providing close races, fielding a ton of cars, and getting tons of advertising so they must be doing something right. That being said, I don't particularly enjoy watching NASCAR, but can't argue with their success.

 

[math2014]

IMHO.

FIA has done the correct thing by the book. Bridgestone runners did also the correct thing, they could race and they did race, simple as that. Michelin runners chickened out for political reasons i believe. The final outcome was a sorry excuse for a race, courtesy of 7 teams and one tire manufacturer.

FIA has some rules, you play her game you accept the rules, end of story no arguements.

You dont like FIA? sod off and go play somewhere else. I am not a fan of FIA, but common sense implies that the governing body sets the rules, and players obey.

The problem is politics, and the safety/law nature of F1 today, WTF! Drivers are paid big $$$ to risk their lives, not to drive safely... so they should have been out there to drive. I bet Senna was all about safety when he was killed in 94. He was a racer, like Villeneuve (Gilles) and others... he took risks .

Anyhow... in the recent Athens Olympics, no-one argued against IAFF, IOC and Wada, when they were caught cheating... they didnt and couldnt argue... same should happen with FIA and the chickensh1t teams.

I am in favor of GPWC... but FIA created F1, WRC, Lemans etc... i dont like her rules, but on this occasion i support FIA.

Yannis

 

[Hawkeye]

They don't have this problem with a NASCAR race.

That's because NASCAR can and does adjust it's rules so that the races are close week in and week out.

see Jeff Gordon's window netting this year. Or the time he was dipping his tires in glue. NASCAR is true to it's bootlegging roots.

If this happened at a NASCAR race (all cars use the same brand tire) they would allow teams to use the replacement tire to make a whole race. They really have the entertainment part of the sport down. The sporting part, not so much.

 

[Andyman_1970]

It is like a soap opera with really fast cars!

As much as I hate that aspect of the sport, that's the part my wife loves (well that and she thinks Kimi is cute) - hey all the better if she's intersted also.