[Andyman_1970]

That being said, I don't particularly enjoy watching NASCAR, but can't argue with their success.

 

[Silver]

Hate to be a conspiracy theorist here, but remember that Windsor does the interviews after the races, right? Meaning that he must be getting paid by...

 

[Ciaran]

They don't have this problem with a NASCAR race.

That's because Bill France would personally kick the ass of any driver or team owner who caused trouble. (j/k) Seriously though, you're right. The only time I can remember something like this happening was at Texas Motor Speedway. In 97 at the inaugaral NASCAR Winston Cup race the drivers felt that the track was unsafe (It was/is), NASCAR made them race anyway (20 car wreck in the opening laps). In 2001, IIRC, CART drivers also said that the Texas track was unsafe. CART cancelled the race for safety reasons. That time CART did the right thing.

 

[ridetoofast]

observation in genearl...its sooo perfectly exceptable to say redneck...but the world ends if the ...shock...gasp...horror...n-word is used...why is that???

aside from that...the fans deserved a race, money spent, time taken off, why would it have been so f'in hard to put in a chicane (sp?)

 

[MMike]

observation in genearl...its sooo perfectly exceptable to say redneck...but the world ends if the ...shock...gasp...horror...n-word is used...why is that???

uhhh....might have something to do with decades of slavery...but I'm not sure....

aside from that...the fans deserved a race, money spent, time taken off, why would it have been so f'in hard to put in a chicane (sp?)

read the thread

 

[ridetoofast]

i did

 

[mack]

I generaly find that NASCAR sucks, ovall tracks just dont do much for me at all.

Although, today i did see some NASCAR racing on a road track, and the cars were going pretty fast, actually allot faster than i would have expected. They seem to be faster on those road tracks than the GT cars? But what is really dumb about NASCAR is that all the cars are essentially the same body and there is just nothing "Stock Car" about them.

 

[ridetoofast]

the oval is a tad boring but they can rub paint without recking, race 3 or 4 wide, there are actually several lead changes, and the name actually meant something at one point..are they supposed to change it now?

don't mistake this for me actually being a fan...im just pointing out the interesting aspects of it

 

[Repack]

Why are there only 6 cars racing?

It's on in French right now and I'm not getting their explanation.....

Because NASCAR has better tires!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! BBBBBWWWWWHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

I generaly find that NASCAR sucks, ovall tracks just dont do much for me at all.

Although, today i did see some NASCAR racing on a road track, and the cars were going pretty fast, actually allot faster than i would have expected. They seem to be faster on those road tracks than the GT cars? But what is really dumb about NASCAR is that all the cars are essentially the same body and there is just nothing "Stock Car" about them.

does nascar use non-solid axles for road circuits???


i dont think a nascar with 3500lbs, fixed pushrod, 4 gears can go faster than a sub 3000lbs, variable timing GT cars in a road circuit.... specially one with braking and slow and mid-speed turns...

 

[Andyman_1970]

aside from that...the fans deserved a race, money spent, time taken off, why would it have been so f'in hard to put in a chicane (sp?)

Because you don't change the race course for teams who didn't show up to the race unprepared - which is what the Michelin teams did.

 

[Andyman_1970]

I've read that after Kimi's suspension failure at the Nurburgring both Michelin and B'stone sent the FIA letters saying that flat spots could produce catastrophic failures, and evidently Michelin added that their tires would not hold up at the Spa (Belgium) circuit - I hope we don't see another 6 car race this year.............. :mumble:

 

[math2014]

Does Bridgestone do DH mtb tires? ... prepare for tire delamination on you Michy CompDH tires

 

[Hawkeye]

That's because Bill France would personally kick the ass of any driver or team owner who caused trouble. (j/k) Seriously though, you're right. The only time I can remember something like this happening was at Texas Motor Speedway. In 97 at the inaugaral NASCAR Winston Cup race the drivers felt that the track was unsafe (It was/is), NASCAR made them race anyway (20 car wreck in the opening laps). In 2001, IIRC, CART drivers also said that the Texas track was unsafe. CART cancelled the race for safety reasons. That time CART did the right thing.

In that CART race you are talking about the drivers would blackout from the g-forces in the turns and wake up on the other side of the turn.

Michael Andretti at the driver's meeting on Sunday morning:

"OK guys, who wants to die today?"

end of race.

 

[Brian Peterson]

Does Bridgestone do DH mtb tires? ... prepare for tire delamination on you Michy CompDH tires

Only on bermed turns.... But I hear NORBA is already replacing all berms chicanes for the rest of the season...

Brian

 

[math2014]

Only on bermed turns.... But I hear NORBA is already replacing all berms chicanes for the rest of the season...

Brian

Good one bro

 

[ekozy39]

F1 fans...
Funny clip of JPM

http://warrensite.advancegroupinc.com/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=http://www.putfile.com/media.php?n=Montoyas-broken-head

 

[Andyman_1970]

In that CART race you are talking about the drivers would blackout from the g-forces in the turns and wake up on the other side of the turn.

Michael Andretti at the driver's meeting on Sunday morning:

"OK guys, who wants to die today?"

end of race.

Which is a world apart from "hey our tires suck and only last 10 laps, can you put a chichane in so everyone has to slow down again because our tires suck....."

 

[trailblazer]

1-the track is the only F1 race with a banked turn...ergo turn 13 problem.
We all know the rules.
2-Bring 2 sets of tires and use one set only.
The michelin teams were only outfitted with one set and that was at the last minute.

This track is legendary and for any American fan-sorry about the boat race.
This is no new thing to Michelin and they are completely at fault. Who do they think they are making demands about track layouts?????
THEY ARE THE F'N SUPPLIER NOT THE DESIGNERS. WTF? WTF?

OK to be fair the track was resurfaced so badly no races played there this year until they brought in a Diamond Grinder to re-surface the bad re-surfacing job. Now it's rideable but it differs from every other F1 track world wide.
I hope they [michelin] get the boot out of F1 like they have been outlawed from my shop along with wd-40. Crap....pure crap.

 

[Brian Peterson]

Changing a track or not racing due to an unsafe track is a lot different than changing a track because somebody couldn't make equipment that worked properly. I also understand there was a noted lack of participation by Michelin during tire testing at Indy earlier in the year...

Brian

 

[BillT]

Tracks should only be changed when the track is dangerous not when someone's equipment is substandard.

 

[trailblazer]

one more rant>>>>>Ralph was the only one to crash and he did so last year in the identical spot. This is racing and life risking so what's the problem????

Every driver faced the same risks and do so every race.

Do you think it was going to be a pile up like a derby?
i don't think so.

I think that the fans were ripped off and deserve their hard earned money in return for the non-show. That fake start and everyone bailing out pit lane like Hitler was comming. I was amazed only one water bottle was thrown and the fans stayed???
For what??the tail gate party??

 

[BillT]

Teams cannot let drivers out and race when they know their equipment is unsafe. Since Aryton Senna died in a race, it has been made clear that the teams are responsible/liable for their driver's safety. The Michelin tires were unsafe - they were delaminating at the sidewalls due to the speed and the banking of that turn (Ralf crashed their last year during the race due to a puncture from debris). If a team let their driver out knowingly on unsafe equipment and that driver where to injure themselves, that team would face severe penalities from the FIA and lawsuit for millions from the driver.

 

[trailblazer]

thatr's nice but they still only brought one set of tires to the party.

 

[Andyman_1970]

From Speedtv.com, Ferrari's position on the matter.........

Michelin teams have implicitly blamed Ferrari for preventing a solution that could have avoided the chaos at last weekend’s USGP at Indianapolis, for being the only team not to sign off on their plan for a chicane to be installed at Turn 13 to reduce the stress on the tires at that corner. However, Ferrari director Jean Todt rejects that conclusion, and suggested his team would have encountered no sympathy had the shoe been on the other foot for his Bridgestone-shod cars.

“I feel sorry about what happened,” said Todt of the situation which led to the 14 Michelin runners peeling off into the pits at the end of the parade lap, taking no further part in the race. “I mainly feel sorry for all the supporters who were here, for the American supporters, for the TV viewers, but it was not our decision.”

Todt admitted that F1 commercial boss Bernie Ecclestone had talked to him about “different proposals, including a chicane, but again, it’s a matter of the FIA, it’s not a matter of the commercial rights holder.

“Number one, it’s an FIA decision. Number two, if something happened on the other side; if, for example, we [Bridgestone runners] don’t have enough grip for qualifying and we ask for three laps because we have good grip after the third lap, or if we ask for a chicane because we feel it would be safer for our tires, I think everybody would laugh at us. So you just have to be prepared to react to a situation.

“You have two sets of tires which you chose from, one normally is soft, the other one is hard and then you make your choice. I feel sorry for those who could not compete, but I feel more sorry, again, for the supporters.”

Todt offered his view of what the disadvantages would have been of the sudden installation of a chicane: “If we knew beforehand that there would be a chicane, we would have come prepared for a chicane. We would come with different tires, we would have a different setup on the car, we would have different gear ratios.

“Honestly, why should we compromise? We try to do a good job with Bridgestone, and we did not do a very good job with Bridgestone since the beginning of the year. We arrive, we are in a situation where we see from Friday that we are competitive, we don’t have any problem with tires, so for us it’s an opportunity.”

As to the question of running the race as a non-points event if a chicane was installed, to get around rules prohibiting such a change, Todt again said firmly that this idea was a non-starter for Ferrari.

“Would we have competed for no points? I say no. If this race would have been a race without points which cannot be, it would have been out of the FIA standard, we would not have started.”

Asked what sort of harm the boycott had done the image of Formula 1, Todt replied, “Very bad. I wish we could come back to the States because it’s a very important country, it’s now our number one market, the States, and for so many years Bernie has tried to implement something in the States. Unfortunately, it was not the best demonstration today. It has been a hard hit for Formula 1 today.”

Todt added that the teams had been warned about pushing the tire situation to the limit. “We all got a letter two weeks ago warning us after the Monte Carlo race and after Nurburgring when [Kimi] Raikkonen had his problem, that we had to pay special attention to the tires, the pressures, about all that, and it’s something we thought could happen for a while.”

Asked under what circumstances he would have been willing to compromise with the Michelin runners for the Indianapolis race, Todt said, “I would say three options. One, they could have changed their tires. Two, they would have to compromise in this specific corner. And three, they could have used the pit lane. If these cars cannot take this corner, what can I do? You would have had a race.”

 

[Andyman_1970]

From Speetv.com - Q & A with Max Mosely (FIA):

Click here

 

[math2014]

I am with MAX 100% ... the 7 teams did it for political reasons.

 

[Andyman_1970]

I am with MAX 100% ... the 7 teams did it for political reasons.

 

[math2014]

thats me!

 

[N8 v2.0]

From F1's president.. what a moron...

 

[Hawkeye]

From F1's president.. what a moron...

Truth hurts I guess.

 

[Andyman_1970]

Last night on Windtunnel (Speed Channel) they had a phone interview with Paul Stoddard (Minardi Team principle) he had some interesting things to say. Granted Mr. Stoddard is a bit of a crack pot in the F1 world – none of the other teams are trying to distance themselves from what he has and is saying. Even though Mr. Stoddard is the principle of a team that runs B-stone tires, he was present at all the meetings concerning this issue.

He systematically refuted all of Max’s “solutions” to the tire problem on the Sunday of the USGP.

1. Max said the Michelin teams could change tires as much as they wanted. According to Paul, due to the one tire rule this year, Michelin and the teams did not have enough tires/rims to accomplish this.

2. Max said they could drive through pit lane each lap. According to Paul this would have introduced another unknown into the tire equation – the slow speed in the pit lane with the race speed on the rest of the track lap after lap would introduce thermo variations that Michelin could not account for and thus insure the safety of the tire.

3. Max said they could slow down on that portion of the track. According to Paul this would have been unsafe to the cars running at speed coming up on a slow car in the fastest portion of the circuit.

Anyway, I thought these were some interesting comments by Mr. Stoddard.

 

[math2014]

Stoddard... i dont hold him very highly in my books.

All excuses by michelin and their teams...

 

[BillT]

Stoddard... i dont hold him very highly in my books.

All excuses by michelin and their teams...

Agreed...I used to have some kind of respect for Stoddard and the minnow that is the Minardi team, but after all of his crap before the Oz race, I lost all that respect and severely question his integrity and motives behind everything he says.

 

[math2014]

Agreed...I used to have some kind of respect for Stoddard and the minnow that is the Minardi team, but after all of his crap before the Oz race, I lost all that respect and severely question his integrity and motives behind everything he says.

Spot on man... he is mostly a politician in F1 rather than a F1 manager

 

[steve45]

i still hold him in high regard and belive him to be one of the 'good guys' of the sport.
all of these points(except the temp variations while going through the pit lane) that he brought up were covered by ITV's commentators during the race, they brought up the exact same points and why they wouldnt work.
i think that stoddard standing beside the michelin runners in this whole situation to be truely commendable.

one worrying thing that stoddard said was "Would we race after a penalty? I think we'd have a meeting and you wouldn't guarantee it,", i dont know if he means the rest of the season or just the next race.
now that would be extreme action, i'd support it but it'd be a damn shame if they didnt race.

i'm still firmly against the FIA on the whole situation, i find everytime i see max in press conferances on TV or see photo's etc, i have the overwhelming urge to shout W**KER, the way he's running F1 is just killing the sport.

 

[steve45]

oh and heres a press release from michelin i found on www.f1-live.com.
just explaining the results of the tyre tests, and what should be done to prevent if from happening again.

[27/06/05 - 18:45]

Michelin completes tyre investigation
Tyres not flawed but insufficiently suited...



Photo F1-Live.com
The loading on the tyre was greater than
Michelin had anticipated
Michelin has completed its investigations concerning the tyres used at Indianapolis and has communicated the results of these investigations to its partner teams:

"The tyres were not intrinsically flawed, but were insufficiently suited to the extreme racing conditions encountered through Turn 13 of the Indianapolis circuit this year."

Given the evolutions concerning the cars' aerodynamics, the regulations which govern the sport and the nature of the track surfaces, etc., Michelin carries out testing in the course of each season with a view to developing the tyres which are the most suited to each event. Two key elements must be known about the Indianapolis circuit:

# Turn 13, with its severe banking, is the only turn of its kind in a season of 19 races.
# Testing at Indianapolis was not possible.

As a consequence, in order to define the specification of its tyres for Indianapolis, Michelin had to carry out simulation work based on the results of less severe testing at other venues and on estimations concerning the specific conditions likely to be met at Indianapolis in 2005.

The Michelin investigations have revealed that the loads exerted on the rear left tyre through Turn 13 at Indianapolis were far superior to the highest estimations of Michelin's engineers. This year, the situation through this corner turned out to be altered by the extreme combination of the speed, lateral acceleration and additional dynamic load. The tyres which Michelin took were therefore insufficiently adapted to the extreme conditions of Turn 13 in 2005. This was a problem.

On the other hand, investigations concerning the materials and construction employed for the tyres produced for Indianapolis have confirmed the absence of any anomaly. The tyres did not have an intrinsic flaw but they were not insufficiently suited to turn 13.

Moreover, this analysis confirmed the pertinence of the tyre solutions specified for all the other circuits.

In retrospect, this analysis perfectly validates the pertinence of the precautionary measures requested by Michelin and its partner teams in the interests of driver safety and fully confirms that the addition of a chicane at the entrance of Turn 13, which would have guaranteed lower speeds through Turn 13, would have enabled spectators not to be deprived of a high class competition, while at the same time guaranteeing the safety of the drivers.

As a consequence:

1. Based on these investigations, Michelin has revised its simulation model for 'banked' corners such as Turn 13 at Indianapolis in view of the special effects caused by this corner.

2. Michelin requests that it be possible in the future to undertake testing at Indianapolis before the Grand Prix.

3. Michelin confirms that it will be present with safe, competitive tyres at the forthcoming Grand Prix races.

In conclusion, Michelin Competition's Director Mr. Pierre Dupasquier declared: "The problem was that we under-evaluated the extreme constraints to which tyres were exposed through Turn 13 in the specific context of 2005. We are grateful to our partners for their work with us right up to the last moment to seek a solution that would have permitted the race to go ahead in total safety. We regret that the spectators did not see an exciting race. However, in keeping with its principles, Michelin did not sacrifice safety for performance."

Press Release
Michelin

for the people that were sying they shold have tested there, indianapolis is not a designated test track, so they are not aloud to test there.

 

[BillT]

If you don't know course and you are allowed to take 2 different tire compounds to the race the rational thing to do is create an 'on the edge' tire with max performance and then build a fail-safe tire that will work in case the 'on the edge' tire doesn't. Michelin dropped the ball and failed the fans by not having the appropriatem safe tire for the race.

 

[Andyman_1970]

one worrying thing that stoddard said was "Would we race after a penalty? I think we'd have a meeting and you wouldn't guarantee it,", i dont know if he means the rest of the season or just the next race.
now that would be extreme action, i'd support it but it'd be a damn shame if they didnt race.

He said something similar in the Windtunnel interview, that if there were huge fines, the teams would not race in France.

i'm still firmly against the FIA on the whole situation, i find everytime i see max in press conferances on TV or see photo's etc, i have the overwhelming urge to shout W**KER, the way he's running F1 is just killing the sport.

Michelin dropped the ball on the tires, but the FIA threw fuel on the fire with their "mine is bigger" attitude instead of working with all the teams to figure out how to have a race. I heard that "back in the day" Bernie would have put the chichane in and in his words "deal with Max on Monday" so that at least a race could take place.

One wonders if there had been the threat of the GPWC would Max have been so in flexible in his stance on solving the issue at Indy?

Oh and there was a test day at Indy, but only two cars showed up........Michelin was no where to be found.........

 

[steve45]

One wonders if there had been the threat of the GPWC would Max have been so in flexible in his stance on solving the issue at Indy?

i really doubt it would have made any difference, the FIA are far too stubborn and set in their ways,

Oh and there was a test day at Indy, but only two cars showed up........Michelin was no where to be found.........

ferrari?

i dont understand though, indy isnt a designated tire test track, therefore michelin couldnt have tested there before hand.
and i dont see how one team could have gone there with the intention of testing tires before hand.
seems like a breach of the rules.