[Andyman_1970]

i dont understand though, indy isnt a designated tire test track, therefore michelin couldnt have tested there before hand.
and i dont see how one team could have gone there with the intention of testing tires before hand.

There was an open test session in April I believe, only 2 cars showed up, Michelin engineers were no where to be found on that test day.

 

[Hawkeye]

There was an open test session in April I believe, only 2 cars showed up, Michelin engineers were no where to be found on that test day.

No matter how many times I read this stuff I can't see how the FIA is to blame.

Michelin had 2 simple things they could have done.

1)Sent a team to test in April
2)Provide a backup tire

The options that they put out there to make the race happen were just not going to happen. Putting in a Chicane at the last minute would have been just a dangerous as having bad tires. F1 has runouts on almost every track where a high speed turn is involved.

 

[Andyman_1970]

No matter how many times I read this stuff I can't see how the FIA is to blame.

Michelin had 2 simple things they could have done.

1)Sent a team to test in April
2)Provide a backup tire

The options that they put out there to make the race happen were just not going to happen. Putting in a Chicane at the last minute would have been just a dangerous as having bad tires. F1 has runouts on almost every track where a high speed turn is involved.

I agree with you the FIA is not to blame for the cause of the lack of the USGP. However, don't you think they share some blame with their lack of flexibility for finding a workable solution to the problem?

 

[math2014]

I blame them for stupid rules, but not for USGP... having said that, those "stupid" rules, made F1 this year interesting, with tires slipping at the last laps and having fights for 1-6 positions untill the last corner. That was a dream a few years back in F1... to fight for positions in the last laps.

 

[Hawkeye]

I agree with you the FIA is not to blame for the cause of the lack of the USGP. However, don't you think they share some blame with their lack of flexibility for finding a workable solution to the problem?

Not really, there was no real safe solution. All of these "solutions" were going to risk someone getting hurt. I was at the race so I am one of the people who really got screwed here.

1) slowing down would just turn turn 13 into a moving chicane.
2) putting in a temp Chicane would make the bridgestone teams change their tire or put them at a disadvantage by not being able to "run what you brung"
3) Pitting every lap/10 laps would just handicap the Mich teams.

For the past couple of years Ferrari was accused of cheating and all of this other crap because they were so fast and winning. F1 changes the rules to level the field and this year they have crap tires and can't win to save their lives. They never went to the FIA and asked for rules to make them better. Now the Mich has a problem the tell their teams to quit. I can't blame the FIA for standing by their guns here.

Tomorrows hearing should be a doozey.

 

[Andyman_1970]

Granted I'm not for changing the rules just so the race can be "fair" - but ultimately it boils down to putting on a show or not putting on a show. Out of all the options the chichane is the only way to go forward. Granted a crap load of rules would have to be thrown out (like NASCAR doesn't make the rules up as they go to suit the circumstance) - so refuel, retire the cars and have them requalify on the circuit with the chichane (that would take what at a max 2 hours - just like the Sunday qualifying earlier this year), all the cars will be at the same disadvantage as that none of them would be prepared for the chichane at 13, let Ferrari bitch and moan about it..........so. If they opted out of that race because of the chichane let them, at least there would have been 18 cars racing instead of 6.

That said, I'm not demonizing Ferrari, or making excuses for Michelin (who is squarely to blame), I am saying that the most important thing Sunday was both sides proving they were right, not both sides coming together to solve a mutual problem (which is what the most important thing should have been Sunday morning) - both the FIA and the Michelin teams came away Sunday looking like retards where as if they had compromised and had a real race they would have been seen as heros.

Yeah tomorrow will be interesting indeed....................

 

[steve45]

new michelin press release.

[snip]
Therefore, on our own initiative and in total solidarity with our partners, we have taken two decisions:


1. Michelin has decided to contribute to the costs incurred by the spectators present at the circuit on Sunday June 19th 2005 by offering to refund their tickets. This is an important decision, since Michelin is not at all legally bound to do this.


Michelin deeply regrets that the public was deprived of an exciting race and therefore wishes to be the first, among the different groups involved in the Indianapolis race, to make a strong gesture towards the spectators.


2. Michelin also offers to buy 20,000 tickets for the 2006 U.S. Grand Prix to be given to spectators who were present at the Indianapolis race in 2005. We are offering this to promote further Formula 1 interest in the United States.
[/snip]

Click here for the full press release.

 

[Hawkeye]

new michelin press release.

Click here for the full press release.

Ok so where in that release does it say how to collect.

I have 7 tickets to give them.

 

[steve45]

well considering they are only contributing part of the money i would think you'd have to wait till the rest of the money and other details have been worked out.
so i'd say it'll be a while after the meetings until your given info for claims etc.
besides i'm sure all refunds etc will go through the Indianapolis motor speedway.

 

[Hawkeye]

well considering they are only contributing part of the money i would think you'd have to wait till the rest of the money and other details have been worked out.
so i'd say it'll be a while after the meetings until your given info for claims etc.
besides i'm sure all refunds etc will go through the Indianapolis motor speedway.

Makes sense. I am really looking forward to the day when this is behind us.

And also to next years USGP.

 

[BillT]

They should just kill F1 at Indy and move the race to Vegas.

 

[Andyman_1970]

From SpeedTV.com:

The seven Michelin-shod teams accused of boycotting the United States Grand Prix – Renault, McLaren, Williams, Toyota, BAR, Red Bull and Sauber - have been proclaimed guilty of two of five charges at today’s World Motor Sport Council hearing in Paris.

In a press conference shortly after the hearing, FIA president Max Mosley revealed that the squads were guilty of “not being in possession of suitable tires” and “wrongfully refusing to start the race” (click here to see the full set of charges). No official proceedings from the hearing were allowed to reach the press.

The immediate consequence of Mosley’s pronunciation is the confirmation that the Formula 1 world will finally return to business as usual at this weekend’s French GP, after two weeks full of political turmoil.

 

[Andyman_1970]

More...................

Hours before the World Motor Sport Council hearing which will judge the events of the United States Grand Prix fiasco, the war of words between the FIA and Michelin raged on this Wednesday, in spite of yesterday’s offer by the tire manufacturer to refund all 2005 USGP tickets and distribute 20,000 free seats for the ‘06 race at Indy.

The governing body responded with a short statement to the company’s claims that the FIA could and should have compromised - i.e., built a chicane to reduce the speeds on Turn 13 - in order to avoid what eventually turned out to be F1’s most shameful episode in over a decade.

"The FIA welcomes the announcement made by Michelin of a compensation package for the spectators of the 2005 United States Grand Prix," it stated.

"However, the FIA strongly contests the version of events detailed in Michelin's press release of June 28 and rejects the views expressed in Edouard Michelin's widely publicized letter to the FIA President of June 27."

The governing body, feeling that Edouard Michelin's letter had been leaked to the media on purpose, decided to publish the exchange of correspondence between the two parties in its entirety. FIA president’s Max Mosley rebuked all of the French company’s claims.

“You said in your letter that ‘…this year, the situation through Turn 13 turned out to be altered by the extreme combination of the speed, lateral acceleration and the additional dynamic load’,” Mosley wrote.

“This is quite an extraordinary statement,” he proceeded. “The banking on Turn 13 has been there for nearly 100 years and Michelin has raced on it many times.”

Furthermore, the FIA also disclosed a fax sent to Michelin competition director Pierre Dupasquier on June 21, in which the body claims that “we have reason to believe that Michelin has suffered at least two major high-speed failures at private testing,” and that the company’s tires have been “prone to sidewall failures” in the past two years.

As a result, Mosley demanded from Dupasquier, “as a matter of urgency,” full details about all of Michelin’s alleged failures. The info, the FIA states, will be evaluated by “independent technical experts,” and their verdict will determine whether the FIA will “invite the French GP stewards to exercise their power under Article 127 of the International Sporting Code.”

Basically, that means the governing body is threatening to exclude Michelin-shod cars from the French race on safety grounds. Article 127 states that “the stewards may exclude a vehicle whose construction is deemed to be dangerous.”

 

[Hawkeye]

They should just kill F1 at Indy and move the race to Vegas.

If it goes anywhere it will be to Long Beach.

 

[steve45]

Basically, that means the governing body is threatening to exclude Michelin-shod cars from the French race on safety grounds. Article 127 states that “the stewards may exclude a vehicle whose construction is deemed to be dangerous.”

if this were to happen,the FIA might as well be tying their own noose, becuase i'm sure that would be it for F1 as we know it.

 

[Hawkeye]

I have heard from several people that the "Michelin Ticket Offer" will only be for people who have held 3 day passes for the past 3 years.

Otherwise it's just a ticket refund.

 

[DRB]

if this were to happen,the FIA might as well be tying their own noose, becuase i'm sure that would be it for F1 as we know it.

http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/formulaone/17903/

This says that nothing is going to happen penalty wise until Sept. 14th.

No official proceedings from the hearing were allowed to reach the press. Mosley also unveiled September 14 as the date the penalties for the squads will be revealed, in an extraordinary meeting of the Council.

"The WMSC decided to adjourn discussion of penalty to an extraordinary meeting, when it will be seen what steps have been taken to compensate the fans," the FIA president stated.

"And also what steps have been taken by the Michelin teams to make sure nothing like this ever happens again. The final decision will then be made after that."

 

[Hawkeye]

Hoping that people lose their ticket stubs I guess.

 

[Huph]

From the Peter Winsor quote above

“I think the Michelin was naïve in thinking that there would be a solution that falls outside the framework of the Formula One regulations … because they suggested a chicane that makes cars go slower through Turn 13, but that was never going to happen in a million years. The FIA, the governing body of the sport – this is the governing body that disqualifies cars for having a brake duct half a millimeter too large – they are never going to put in a chicane in on race morning, around which the cars are not allowed to practice or do anything at all … equally, there was talk about using another batch of tires, but that was never going to happen either.”

“Tell me where the difference is in what happened today and what might happen at any Grand Prix where there is a sudden downpour and one tire company, on intermediate tires, with no grip at all, everybody spins off on the straight and there is only five cars left in the race. That’s happened before and everyone thinks ‘Wow, what a great race.’ They should have been out there racing and if there are problems, you drive around the problems as best you can. Racers are racers.”

IMO There was no real will by the FIA to find a compromise -to have Michelin & Bridgestone runners drive through turn 13 at wildly different speeds is just plain dangerous.

Peter asks what is the difference if a team had only intermediate tyres at a wet race and crashes reduced the size of the field.

I don't know what the difference is, but the FIA sem to know. Brazil 2003, Bridgestonne had only Intermediates as their nominated wet tyre. At race start time the track was soaking wet. The FIA first delayed the start and then had the field run behind the pace car to create a dry line before green lighting the race. This despite the fact that Michelin runners had a suitable wet tyre available.