[DRB]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/08/01/fahd.obit/index.html

The former Crown Prince Abdullah, Fahd's half brother, has been named the new Saudi king and Defense Minister Prince Sultan has replaced Abdullah as crown prince.

I wonder if this gives the extremists cause to become more active within Saudi Arabia.

 

[genpowell71]

Bout freakin time. Now the rest of the country can overthrow thre crown government.

 

[PonySoldier]

Bout freakin time. Now the rest of the country can overthrow thre crown government.

The Shrub and company wouldn't like that at all....

 

[N8 v2.0]

Related story?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/showbiz/showbiznews.html?in_article_id=357812&in_page_id=1773

 

[genpowell71]

The Shrub and company wouldn't like that at all....

Yeah, funny aint it...

 

[Changleen]

The first thing he did was assure everyone that the Oil will keep flowing as it always had. He's another American puppet, don't worry. He ain't going nowhere.

 

[DRB]

The first thing he did was assure everyone that the Oil will keep flowing as it always had. He's another American puppet, don't worry. He ain't going nowhere.

So you are saying that extremists will not pick up their activity to affect the new King?

 

[Reactor]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/08/01/fahd.obit/index.html



I wonder if this gives the extremists cause to become more active within Saudi Arabia.

I doubt it. Prince abdullah has been running the governement for many years.

 

[DRB]

I doubt it. Prince abdullah has been running the governement for many years.

And directly proportional to that increase in control, is an increase in militant activity within Saudi Arabia.

 

[Changleen]

So you are saying that extremists will not pick up their activity to affect the new King?

Not at all. I say that was moderatley to quite likely. However Saudi's realtionship with the US will remain virtually unchanged, and the regeime will continue to be supported because of the dependance on Saudi oil. Any uprising will be swiftly stamped upon as it has been in the past.

 

[Changleen]

And directly proportional to that increase in control, is an increase in militant activity within Saudi Arabia.

Other right-leaning commentators have equated the rise in opposition to the increased pressure for democracy in the region from the US. It's good to know you can see through that BS.

 

[Damn True]

The Saud regime has allowed and even sponsored the rise in the Islamic Whabbi movement which has spawned much of the terror-leaning or at least terror-ambivalant feelings surrounding fundamentalist Islam. I think our Govt would be happy to see the Saud fall...provided it fell toward a democratic leadership. Although.....the enemy you know is better than the enemy you don't. Sticky business.

 

[Toshi]

The Saud regime has allowed and even sponsored the rise in the Islamic Whabbi movement which has spawned much of the terror-leaning or at least terror-ambivalant feelings surrounding fundamentalist Islam. I think our Govt would be happy to see the Saud fall...provided it fell toward a democratic leadership. Although.....the enemy you know is better than the enemy you don't. Sticky business.

i think that our govt is motivated by access to oil, and this "freedom" and "democracy" bs is just lip service. and i predict that the course of events will prove me to be correct, and that 20 years from now you'll still be an apologist.

 

[Damn True]

First of all I don't think we should be kissing the Saud regime's a$$ the way we do. I am in no way an apologist for that.

When I said, "I think our Govt would be happy to see the Saud fall." I should have said that we as a nation would be better off if it did.

 

[DRB]

When I said, "I think our Govt would be happy to see the Saud fall."I should have said that we as a nation would be better off if it did.

What in the world makes you think that?

 

[Reactor]

First of all I don't think we should be kissing the Saud regime's a$$ the way we do. I am in no way an apologist for that.

When I said, "I think our Govt would be happy to see the Saud fall." I should have said that we as a nation would be better off if it did.

The current saudi regime is far more cuddly then any likely to take it's place if it falls. The house of Saud has allowed radical madrassas (sp?) spring up all over the Saudi Arabia, as long as they don't directly oppose the government. It was a compromise to keep the extremist at bay, and keep the country relatively peaceful. But like the Fram oil filter man, it's a pay me now or pay me later situation. Now there is a whole generation of extemists trained, and if the government shows the slightest sign of crumbling, you're likely to end up with a country that makes Iran look positively progressive.

 

[DRB]

Other right-leaning commentators have equated the rise in opposition to the increased pressure for democracy in the region from the US. It's good to know you can see through that BS.

Where the devil did any right-leaning comentators come into my discussion.

Fahd turned a blind eye to the islamic extremists, as DT pointed out. Since no one was bugging them at home they were free to go elsewhere and spread their crap. Abdullah (and by extension Sultan), as he has gained more power, has not adopted that blind eye towards the extremists. He agressively has gone after them. Making it more difficult for them to operate externally. This has drawn their ire and prompted the rise in internal strife.

 

[Damn True]

The current saudi regime is far more cuddly then any likely to take it's place if it falls. The house of Saud has allowed radical madrassas (sp?) spring up all over the Saudi Arabia, as long as they don't directly oppose the government. It was a compromise to keep the extremist at bay, and keep the country relatively peaceful. But like the Fram oil filter man, it's a pay me now or pay me later situation. Now there is a whole generation of extemists trained, and if the government shows the slightest sign of crumbling, you're likely to end up with a country that makes Iran look positively progressive.

Yeah, like I said, the enemy you know etc etc. It's a dicey and potentially dangerous situation.

However, there is potential if things continue to improve in Iraq, which is proving to be the case, for the general populace of Saudi Arabia to see that democracy and self determination is a better deal.

 

[Changleen]

However, there is potential if things continue to improve in Iraq, which is proving to be the case, for the general populace of Saudi Arabia to see that democracy and self determination is a better deal.

Bwhahahaha. You have a very very strange definition of 'Improve', Mr. Ostrich.

 

[Changleen]

Where the devil did any right-leaning comentators come into my discussion.

Fahd turned a blind eye to the islamic extremists, as DT pointed out. Since no one was bugging them at home they were free to go elsewhere and spread their crap. Abdullah (and by extension Sultan), as he has gained more power, has not adopted that blind eye towards the extremists. He agressively has gone after them. Making it more difficult for them to operate externally. This has drawn their ire and prompted the rise in internal strife.

Hmm, I agree with that except for "Making it more difficult for them to operate externally" - If you are being persecuted at home, leaving to persue your agenda is the logical, and simpler thing to do. It's not like thay can only focus on one thing at a time.

 

[DRB]

Hmm, I agree with that except for "Making it more difficult for them to operate externally" - If you are being persecuted at home, leaving to persue your agenda is the logical, and simpler thing to do. It's not like thay can only focus on one thing at a time.

Logical? Strapping bombs on to ones chest and carrying them into crowd of children is far from logical. So let's drop that from the equation.

I'm not talking theory, I'm talking reality. Look at what has been happening in Saudi Arabia. When they were not being "persecuted" at home what did they do? They took their circus of love on the road. As that "persecution" began at home they started returning and fighting that "persecution". Abdullah (really Sultan) has been systematically working to deny their financial support. Cutting into that financial support as made it more difficult to fund operations.

 

[Damn True]

Bwhahahaha. You have a very very strange definition of 'Improve', Mr. Ostrich.

Well let's see:

The insurgency is withering.
Over 100 attacks per day prior to the first election, 14 per day through April-May, less than 1 per day in June/July.

The building of the new Iraqi govt is on schedule:
15 August: Draft constitution (six-month extension possible)
15 October: Possible referendum on constitution
By 15 December: Elections for government

We are making ready to and over security to US trained Iraqi military forces as early as this time next year.

Sounds like an improvement.

 

[Changleen]

Well let's see:

The insurgency is withering.
Over 100 attacks per day prior to the first election, 14 per day through April-May, less than 1 per day in June/July.

The building of the new Iraqi govt is on schedule:
15 August: Draft constitution (six-month extension possible)
15 October: Possible referendum on constitution
By 15 December: Elections for government

We are making ready to and over security to US trained Iraqi military forces as early as this time next year.

Sounds like an improvement.

Except for the small, but glaring error in your BS - The insurgents are now far more organised and are killing more people than ever.

Your proposed timetable is just that - a proposed timetable. Predictions that the Election would quell the violence turned out to be wrong.

And as for your US trained security forces, would that be the same guys who have recently been going round torturing people?

Get a clue.

 

[Damn True]

Except for the small, but glaring error in your BS - The insurgents are now far more organised and are killing more people than ever.
Um this is not true.
Your proposed timetable is just that - a proposed timetable. Predictions that the Election would quell the violence turned out to be wrong.
Wrong again: Over 100 attacks per day prior to the first election, 14 per day through April-May, less than 1 per day in June/July.
And as for your US trained security forces, would that be the same guys who have recently been going round torturing people?
This has been proven to be isolated to a few cases. But if the Iraqi's decide to do things differently than we would like and it turns out to be effective...which it has been....then
Get a clue.

Stop hating long enough to see that while this thing has not gone as well as planned, and I certainly do not agree with 100% of the way it has been run, it is turning out for the better on behalf of the Iraqi populace.

 

[Reactor]

Damn True is not. At least in this case.


Iraqi civillian death count is up to over 800 a month due to insurgent attacks, from an average 500 a month last year.

According to the Brookings institute:

Average Number of Insurgent Attacks per Day—May 2003: 10, June 2004: 52, May 2005: 70

US Troops Killed/Wounded (per month)—May 2003: 37/54, June 2004: 42/584, May 2005: 77/615

 

[Changleen]

So DT, I guess since there were only 4 attacks on 9/11, that makes them less important than the 100's of muggings and shootings which occur daily across the US?

 

[Changleen]

BAGHDAD, August 1 (Reuters) - Following are security incidents reported in Iraq on Monday, August 1, as of 0900 GMT. U.S. and Iraqi forces are battling a Sunni Arab insurgency against the Shi'ite and Kurdish-led government in Baghdad.

Interior Ministry official Brigadier Salam Lutfi was killed and two of his guards were wounded when gunmen attacked his car on a highway in eastern Baghdad, a police source said.

Two separate bombings on Sunday killed five U.S. soldiers during patrols in Baghdad districts, a U.S. military statement said on Monday.

One soldier was killed and two soldiers were wounded when their patrol hit a landmine in al-Doura, south of Baghdad.

Four soldiers were killed when their patrol struck a roadside bomb in southwest Baghdad.

BAGHDAD, July 27 (Reuters) - Following are security incidents reported in Iraq on Wednesday, July 27 as of 1100 GMT. U.S. and Iraqi forces are battling a Sunni Arab insurgency against the Shi'ite and Kurdish-led government in Baghdad.

Asterisk denotes new or updated item.

* TAJI - Seven Iraqi soldiers were killed north of Baghdad on Tuesday when about 20 insurgents in four cars attacked them with assault rifles, the Ministry of Defence said.

The soldiers were guarding a water pump station in the town of Taji that feeds most of the capital with drinking water. It has been a regular target for saboteurs, causing severe water shortages in Baghdad.

* BAGHDAD - Four U.S soldiers were killed on Sunday evening when a roadside bomb was detonated near their vehicle in south- western Baghdad, the U.S military said on Wednesday.

* BAGHDAD - Three Iraqi civilians were killed and 37 injured when a mortar round fell onto Baghdad's main bus station, the Ministry of Interior said. The large 'Alawi station' in central Baghdad is usually crowded with travellers during the day.

BAIJI - Two Iraqi soldiers were killed when gunmen fired on their patrol near the northern Iraqi town of Baiji, security sources said.

* MOSUL - Iraqi police arrested 40 suspected insurgents and confiscated weapons found in western Mosul on Tuesday, the U.S military said in a statement.

BAGHDAD - The director of communications at Baghdad International Airport, Mahir Yassin, was kidnapped along with two other airport employees in Baghdad's Mansour district, an Interior Ministry source said. (Reporting by Amer Salman in Tikrit and Mussab Al-Khairalla, Faris al-Mehdawi in Baghdad)

Less than one a day eh?

 

[Changleen]

And maybe you missed this:

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/iraq/story/0,12956,1530375,00.htmlhttp://politics.guardian.co.uk/iraq/story/0,12956,1530375,00.html

 

[Changleen]

From the BBC, 1st Aug:

But when you talk to ordinary Iraqis on a daily basis, you quickly understand that the one thing they want is the one thing which the Coalition has not been able to provide: freedom from the daily toll of bombing and murder.

Even in the British-controlled areas, where the soldiers have had long experience in dealing with potentially hostile civilians, the security situation certainly is not improving.

And in the country as a whole it is getting noticeably worse.

 

[Damn True]

Damn True is not. At least in this case.


Iraqi civillian death count is up to over 800 a month due to insurgent attacks, from an average 500 a month last year.

According to the Brookings institute:

Average Number of Insurgent Attacks per Day—May 2003: 10, June 2004: 52, May 2005: 70

US Troops Killed/Wounded (per month)—May 2003: 37/54, June 2004: 42/584, May 2005: 77/615

The numbers I posted were from a cbs.com article that misquoted the following piece in which the author describes insurgent attacks in Baghdad only. Remember the old saying, believe 1/2 of what you hear and even less of what you read.

Iraqi Interior Minister Bayan Jabr Sulagh said on Saturday that insurgent attacks in Baghdad have dramatically decreased since launching Operation Al-Barq, asserting that Iraqi security forces will establish full security in Baghdad within the next six months.

In a press conference in Baghdad, the minister said that the number of car-bomb attacks in Baghdad have decreased from 14 attacks a day to one or two attacks only, while the number of arrested insurgents increased from 10 to 85 a day, noting that Operation Al-Barq has a 90 percent success rate.

Sulagh added that the number of detainees was 219 before launching the operation and increased to 1318 detainees during the operation, noting that the number of insurgents killed in the operation reached 36 insurgents, while detainees include four Sudanese, two Jordanians, one Egyptian, and one Syrian.

He said that the Iraqi security forces seized eight ready-for-use car bombs in Baghdad, and seized 27 other car bombs in gunmen hideouts.He added that the forces seized six million US dollars, 52 mortar rounds, 37 missiles, 325 Kalashnikovs, 13 RPG-7 launchers, 36 guns, and 37 grenades. - The minister noted that four Iraqi policemen and army men were killed and 17 others were wounded in Operation Al-Barq, while 35 civilians were killed and 87 were wounded in the operation.

 

[Silver]

Less than one a day eh?

Well, let's look at August 1. There are four incidents listed there.

4 incidents, divided by the 31 days that August has leaves us with 0.13 incidents per day for the month.

Any one not blinded by the communist/nazi tendencies of a left wing pinko child molesting faggot can see that 0.13 is clearly less than 1.

 

[valve bouncer]

This thread seems to be following the usual pattern. True makes some outrageously ridiculous comment and then gets owned by all and sundry. He digs himself a deeper hole trying to get out of the mess and at the end of it he slinks off from the PD forum with his tail between his legs for another month or two.

 

[Reactor]

The numbers I posted were from a cbs.com article that misquoted the following piece in which the author describes insurgent attacks in Baghdad only. Remember the old saying, believe 1/2 of what you hear and even less of what you read.

Iraqi Interior Minister Bayan Jabr Sulagh said on Saturday that insurgent attacks in Baghdad have dramatically decreased since launching Operation Al-Barq, asserting that Iraqi security forces will establish full security in Baghdad within the next six months.

In a press conference in Baghdad, the minister said that the number of car-bomb attacks in Baghdad have decreased from 14 attacks a day to one or two attacks only, while the number of arrested insurgents increased from 10 to 85 a day, noting that Operation Al-Barq has a 90 percent success rate.

He said that the Iraqi security forces seized eight ready-for-use car bombs in Baghdad, and seized 27 other car bombs in gunmen hideouts.He added that the forces seized six million US dollars, 52 mortar rounds, 37 missiles, 325 Kalashnikovs, 13 RPG-7 launchers, 36 guns, and 37 grenades. - The minister noted that four Iraqi policemen and army men were killed and 17 others were wounded in Operation Al-Barq, while 35 civilians were killed and 87 were wounded in the operation.

Last time I checked Iraq had more than one city. These numbers are just in Bagdad. The same interior minister gave the casualty numbers that the 800 civilians/month death rate in Iraq is taken from. In Bagdad they set up a huge number of checkpoints and sub-divded the city a few months ago. So the most of insurgents just went elsewhere, and they are making sure the bombs they set off are as effective as possible.

 

[spincrazy]

This thread seems to be following the usual pattern. True makes some outrageously ridiculous comment and then gets owned by all and sundry. He digs himself a deeper hole trying to get out of the mess and at the end of it he slinks off from the PD forum with his tail between his legs for another month or two.

YES. I rarely post, but I read. SSDD

Oh, and stay on topic people.

 

[Damn True]

Last time I checked Iraq had more than one city. These numbers are just in Bagdad. The same interior minister gave the casualty numbers that the 800 civilians/month death rate in Iraq is taken from. In Bagdad they set up a huge number of checkpoints and sub-divded the city a few months ago. So the most of insurgents just went elsewhere, and they are making sure the bombs they set off are as effective as possible.

Chill out. I was saying you are correct. The data I posted was the product of a quickly retracted misquote by cbs.com of Minister Bayan Jabr Sulagh's statements.

The article was there....then less than four hours later, it was gone. Apparently somone else caught the same mistake you did.

 

[Damn True]

This thread seems to be following the usual pattern. True makes some outrageously ridiculous comment and then gets owned by all and sundry. He digs himself a deeper hole trying to get out of the mess and at the end of it he slinks off from the PD forum with his tail between his legs for another month or two.

a) I explained what happend with the misleading data I posted. Unlike many, I'm not afraid to admit when I am wrong.

b) This may surprise you, but attending to conversations in this forum are not my highest priority. What with starting a new job, getting engaged, planning a wedding etc......more often than not I have more important stuff to do than talk to you. So if I disappear for a while it's not because I am afraid of the exchange....it's that it just isn't that important.