King SteelSet mod..

Dirtbike · Jan 24, 2007

If you are riding things that would break a standard King headset, and SX Trail probably isnt the bike you should be doing it on. Just use a regular one.

jrfor0 · Jan 24, 2007

use an alu king. the bearings in a king headset fail LONG before the alu cups do.

.:Jeenyus:. · Jan 24, 2007

I only know one person to destroy a Al King headset, and I'm thinking it had to do something with him landing back flips not too smoothly.

gemini2k · Jan 24, 2007

PepperJester said:
so is this a stupid idea or not?

yes.
an sx trail will break before an Alu king YO

DHS · Jan 24, 2007

Dirtbike said:
If you are riding things that would break a standard King headset, and SX Trail probably isnt the bike you should be doing it on. Just use a regular one.

exactly.

i have a 07 SX trail with a totem with a king headset. i'll fail before they do

davep · Jan 24, 2007

No need for a dep cup HS on that frame in the first place. It is a heavily reinforced forged tube..far from a weak mfg process.

I may be the only one to say it, (i know I am not the only one to have issues with this) but for a longer fork bike, I think there are better options than King. The king headset uses a different top cap assembly than other headsets (because cane creek owns the patent) an I am convinced that it is not up to the loads applied by a long travel fork. King bearings are great...the rest of the HS is a compromise IMO.

Search for headset/fork creaking or my user name here and @ mtbr if you want to read more about the probs with king HS on long forks...it is not uncommon.

blue · Jan 24, 2007

If you really want to install the steelset (for God knows why), you can dremel the lips in the headtube down to get it to fit. You will void the frame warrantee (though I don't see how you'd harm the frame unless you went nuts with the dremel), and I'd highly recommend using a non-deep cup headset, but if thats what it means to you, so be it. That's what I did on my Specialist to get a deep cup FSA headset to fit...

GumbaFish · Jan 25, 2007

DHS said:
exactly.

i have a 07 SX trail with a totem with a king headset. i'll fail before they do

Sweet when did you get an SX? By the way how's Cali treating you?

jonKranked · Jan 25, 2007

this sounds like a PinkBike idea.... :busted:

GumbaFish · Jan 25, 2007

^^Only if you put a super monster T on it with a 24in front wheel.

DHDror · Jan 25, 2007

Do you realy think a 40$ FSA Pig headset is not good enough to be on your bike ?

http://www.pricepoint.com/detail/14141-205_FSAPP5-3-Parts-63-Headsets/FSA-Pig-DH-Pro-Headset.htm

I realy can't understand this 'bling obsession' with CK headsets...

DHS · Jan 25, 2007

DHDror said:
Do you realy think a 40$ FSA Pig headset is not good enough to be on your bike ?

http://www.pricepoint.com/detail/14141-205_FSAPP5-3-Parts-63-Headsets/FSA-Pig-DH-Pro-Headset.htm

I realy can't understand this 'bling obsession' with CK headsets...

not just bling dude. they work. and for almost ever. never have to adjust. they just work. never have to repack. or get new bearings.
just a setup and forget kind of part.

big cal · Jan 25, 2007

DHS said:
not just bling dude. they work. and for almost ever. never have to adjust. they just work. never have to repack. or get new bearings.
just a setup and forget kind of part.

ha, yeah and there are a crapload of cheaper headsets, that also 'work'. I've always bought cheapish headsets, and they have all been set and forget. It is just bling.

binary visions · Jan 25, 2007

I think you're way past the point of diminishing returns here. There are guys with aluminum CK headsets that are 6 or 7 years old and have been through 3 or 4 frames. How much more is that Steelset going to net you?

Regardless, I would not take a dremel tool to your headtube. However, with the proper tools you can ream the headtube deeper to accept a steelset.

How are you planning on cutting this, anyway? Cutting it improperly can cause some deformation in the cup, not to mention you're going to have to very carefully file everything afterwards.

Bullitboyz · Jan 25, 2007

i had picked up a Steelset new for $50 (couldn't pass up that deal) but i didn't have any need to run it as-is... but i liked the color...so I had the bright idea to take it to my machinist :lighten:

cut it to standard length and slapped it in my Morewood. done.

4xBoy · Jan 25, 2007

Set-up correctly I would just cut the cups down to fit the frame but if you cut them"just enough" they may not be removable with a standard headset cup remover.

I wouldn't bother messing with the frame.

manhattanprjkt83 · Jan 25, 2007

seriously just dont do it...There really isnt a reason, the king's are crazy durable.

Westy · Jan 25, 2007

big cal said:
ha, yeah and there are a crapload of cheaper headsets, that also 'work'. I've always bought cheapish headsets, and they have all been set and forget. It is just bling.

I'm going to guess some of us ride in less bearing friendly areas than you do.

Banshee Rider · Jan 25, 2007

big cal said:
ha, yeah and there are a crapload of cheaper headsets, that also 'work'. I've always bought cheapish headsets, and they have all been set and forget. It is just bling.

Why does it matter? Do you really care what other people put on their bike?

How much is your cell phone? I'm sure you have something super g** (I mean bling) and could do just fine with one that's the size of a brick and costs a whole lot less. Point is, unless your eating Ramen noodles for dinner to fund bike parts, then I'm sure you've spent alot more money on everyday items based on their appeal alone.

I'm with the majority on this one. This topic makes no sense.

jonKranked · Jan 25, 2007

PepperJester said:
dude this was a legitimate question regarding a solution to technical problem. If I wanted remarks like yours I would have posted this on PinkBike. Genreally RideMonkey users are more open to questions regarding custom parts - looks like I was wrong.

My question was only to confirm that one could safley trim a deep cup headset to fit in a standard headtube nothing more.

I'm sure the Al headset would be fine for my bike, I do prefer steel. Yes perhaps I would kill my SX befor a regular King BUT seeing as Kings are known to last for ever I had planned on taking the modified SteelSet over to what ever my next bike would be. This was not just a short term solution I was thinking long term.

A steel headset with regular leanth cup would still be stronger then a aluminium headset of the same size.

Thank you davep and blue for the only responces that came close to being helpfull.

It looks like I'll have to presue this project own.

sounds like someone has their panties in a bundle.

Headsets are one of those parts you don't really want to mod. Especially steel. Heat treated or not it will be easier than you think to deform it in the cutting process. And there really is no reason for a steel headset, even from CK. The only person I can think of who abuses bikes badly enough to warrant a part like this is Josh Bender. The aluminum CK headsets are crazy strong. I bought one that was 2 years used (and raced DH) and I've been riding it DH for 5 years without a single problem. A friend of mine has one (al CK) on his street bike, crashed straight into a wall at a skatepark, snapped the steerer off the fork, and the headset was fine. Two months later the guy sheered the headtube off his frame with the same headset, again it was fine.

The point is, al headsets are strong enough. Any strength gains with a steel headset are just unnecessary. It would be like putting a set of steel Profile cranks on a carbon fiber road bike. Yes its stronger, but who needs it?

Oh and if you love steel so much, why are you riding an aluminum frame?

Castle · Jan 25, 2007

yeah if anything, if you just "have to have" the steelset, cut it to the same length or a smidgen longer/deeper then the aluminum king cups, specifically the lower cup. In my opinion the standard alu. king lower cup seats too shallow for my liking. I like a little deeper inserton on the lower cup.

may I suggest using a FSA PIG DH PRO.... I've had great luck with that headset...

if I'm not mistaken the sxt comes reamed 15mm's deep, and if my memory serves me right the fsa pig dh pro inserts 12mm's don't quote me on that but I'm pretty sure that was the measurements I took last year about this time when I was building my bike..

Spunger · Jan 25, 2007

I was unsure of this......but I thought the steelset was more of a fix-it headset for DH/FR bikes. Like if you're headtube ovalized you could use this to sorta "fix" it? I know there are some other companies with deep cup headsets and thought this was why.

I'll agree with Castle above, the FSA Pig DH pro headsets are pretty nice for the $40-50 you can find them for. I have them on both bikes (have a king too not on anything) and I've been more than happy with their performance and ease of setup/use. They have been smooth since day one and are ment for the DH/FR crowd. I have had my King for.......10 years or so now? and short of a few knicks and such from removing it it's a great headset. Always felt like butter. Truth is though you are paying for that "King" name (atleast now that their prices went up). I think the stuff by Cane Creek and FSA are pretty decent, especially for their price compared to King.

gemini2k · Jan 25, 2007

Banshee Rider said:
How much is your cell phone? I'm sure you have something super g** (I mean bling) and could do just fine with one that's the size of a brick and costs a whole lot less.

Holla. I hate everyone and their mother who has bling cellphones. Jesus christ its a ****ing PHONE!!! You're only gonna have it for a year 2 tops. And you are probably gonna lose it anyways cause if ure such a tool who buys a bling cellphone you probably are the kind of tool who can't keep track of it. Could i possibly threadjack and flame more, IDK?

Castle · Jan 25, 2007

Spunger said:
I was unsure of this......but I thought the steelset was more of a fix-it headset for DH/FR bikes. Like if you're headtube ovalized you could use this to sorta "fix" it? I know there are some other companies with deep cup headsets and thought this was why.

yup that's my understanding too, designed to help remedy a ovalized headtube to get some more life out of the frame...

DHS · Jan 25, 2007

hm, i love steal. but i still run alum king headsets on all my bikes. including my brooklyn racelink and brooklyn TMX. and the TMX has had the same king headset since 2000. the racelink has had it on since 2002.
don't be an idiot and mess up your frame.

jonKranked · Jan 25, 2007

DHS said:
hm, i love steal.

i always knew you were a crook.

but nothin beats some good old fashioned 4130 tubing. mmmmm.....

Pbody · Jan 25, 2007

PepperJester said:
This might be a stupid idea.. ok good chance it is BUT...

I'm going to call king, maby then can do a stubbie steel up for me so I can get one with warranty, probley not but hey worth a call..

so is this a stupid idea or not?

CK will tell you no way, mostly because the chances of it fitting in after it's cut are slim, UNLESS you do take it somewhere and have the cups cut clean an even, smooth bevel to the cups started correctly.

I tried once when I was in a pinch, used the Dremel to get the best finish I could and just could not get the 1st cup to insert evenly.

My $.02 says it's not worth the time and frustration, and of course time = money.

Christiaan · Jan 25, 2007

It can be done(as stated above), but make sure they make it a little tapered so it will go into the frame nicely.

I know from experience that a Steelset is a real bitch to remove from a frame, as the steel will react to the alloy and make it really tight, so use shimano paste before you fit the headset. My advice, never remove it after it is installed, it is just noth wortt the trouble

CKxx · Jan 25, 2007

PepperJester said:
...SX-Trail...huck bike....

Interesting.

Fly · Jan 26, 2007

Ok. I'm not swure what went on in subsequent pages, but after the firt 7-8 posts on the first page I just plain gave up.

The answer to your question.

Can you trim down a CK steelset on a lathe? Yes, no problem. Use a medium cutting speed and plenty of coolant/lube. It may slightly discolour the lips if you go in too quickly without coolant, but if you take gentle cuts, there is no way it can possibly damage anything. Make up some copper/brass/Al soft jaws so that you don't wreck the finish on the cup if the tool 'grabs'.

Wiil it void your warranty? I guess it may.

Will it **** your frame? Not anymore than a standard Alu headset, provided the steelset lips are cut down to the same insertion/length.

Happy machining

Fly · Jan 26, 2007

jonKranked said:
sounds like someone has their panties in a bundle.

Headsets are one of those parts you don't really want to mod. Especially steel. Heat treated or not it will be easier than you think to deform it in the cutting process.

I hope you're not serious. How much machining have you actually done? How much headset maching have you actually done?

Firstly, I can't really imagine CK steelsets are going to be made from a high/med carbon steel. Therefore, you have about .05 - .3 carbon content. There is no way the cutting process is going to generate enough heat to mess up any heat treating beyond about 3-4mm away from the cut anyway. Secondly, what sort of a professional doesn't use a lubricant/coolant anyway? On any high tolerance part, they/you take precautions to stop the negative effects you mentioned.

Secondly, deformation? Without lube, it might heat up and oxidize a bit, but I highly doubt its going to deform the lip. For any significant deformation to occur, the metal is going to have to be near melting point, and with the amount of air circulating the job on any lathe, I doubt even the harshest/deepest/fastest of cuts is going to produce anywhere near those temperatures. Thats just irrational.

Bullitboyz · Jan 26, 2007

Fly said:
words words words.

FINALLY the voice of reason.

honestly the process took about 5 minutes from start to finish and it's perfect. no deformation, no nuthin. just hit it with some emery cloth to smooth the edge and it pressed right in with no issues.

(and the color is killer on a 'champagne' frame)

DHS · Jan 26, 2007

Fly said:
I hope you're not serious. How much machining have you actually done? How much headset maching have you actually done?

Firstly, I can't really imagine CK steelsets are going to be made from a high/med carbon steel. Therefore, you have about .05 - .3 carbon content. There is no way the cutting process is going to generate enough heat to mess up any heat treating beyond about 3-4mm away from the cut anyway. Secondly, what sort of a professional doesn't use a lubricant/coolant anyway? On any high tolerance part, they/you take precautions to stop the negative effects you mentioned.

Secondly, deformation? Without lube, it might heat up and oxidize a bit, but I highly doubt its going to deform the lip. For any significant deformation to occur, the metal is going to have to be near melting point, and with the amount of air circulating the job on any lathe, I doubt even the harshest/deepest/fastest of cuts is going to produce anywhere near those temperatures. Thats just irrational.

yes i can see that its not that hard too do. you have a lot of headset cup to work with.

its just something you shouldn't do. it'll void both warrenties. and is completely looked down apon, in the bicycle industry.

buildyourown · Jan 26, 2007

I wouldn't put an aluminum King in an aggressive bike. Has anyone removed one after a hard season in a frame? The insertion is quite short and consequently, there is pitting and galling from the headset moving in the frame. I personally am turned off of King lately because of the way their topcap works (or doesn't work).
If you really want a King, I would chop down the steelset. This way you get maximum insertion.
I've had awesome results from Kings in xc and road bikes but I've also had great results with the HIGHEND fsa stuff.

davep · Jan 26, 2007

buildyourown said:
.... I personally am turned off of King lately because of the way their topcap works (or doesn't work).
.

Exactly my point!! look at the bearing contact surface of the top cap and it will be eaten away due to the constant rocking motion of the top cap.

I think this is a better bet for a super burley/frame saver application:
http://www.fullspeedahead.com/fly.aspx?layout=product&taxid=65&pid=245

or the aluminum one.

Nice build blog BYO, looks like a sick little project, I wish that I had access that type of machinery....soooo many things that I could make..I am sure you know what I mean.

blue · Jan 26, 2007

I pressed a Pig DH pro deep cup into my Specialist after the headtube ovalized slightly. Works wonders.

CK is obscenely overpriced for what you get. They're no longer the end-all-be-all of headsets. Cane Creaky or FSA will get you by EASILY for half or a third of the price.

Please don't give snobby elitists who pricegouge more money.

buildyourown · Jan 26, 2007

On the issue of whether or not you can safely machine a steelset: Without a doubt, YES. They are made from a PH stainless steel. When heattreated, it goes to about 45 HRC max. This is still quite machinable with standard tools. I do it all the time.
There should be no issues with warping or overheating, even if machined bone dry.
In fact, you would have no issues chopping one off with a hacksaw if you bought a good blade.

King SteelSet mod..

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