[kidwoo]

that person was using the Bone version (hard shell); NOT the VPD.

Fabric on the outside of something that's made to be crashed on rocks is even more retarded..


Actually if they were acid wash denim instead of black, you could probably get a pretty sweet def leopard look going after a few spills. Add an airbrushed wolf/full moon graphic to the part underneath that's bound to reveal itself and you might have a winner.

 

[Sandwich]

three wolf knee pads shining through abused denim? sounds trashy enough to work.

 

[kidwoo]

You feel me.

 

[jonKranked]

Fabric on the outside of something that's made to be crashed on rocks is even more retarded..

Hate all you want, but don't knock 'em till you try em. Best one's I've ever used, hands down.

 

[kidwoo]

Hate all you want, but don't knock 'em till you try em. Best one's I've ever used, hands down.

You DO understand where I'm coming from though right?


Why the hell is there something covering the outside of the pad, that's bound to stick to what you're falling on? As well as get destroyed in the process...... I don't want my pads to stick to rocks, I want them to slide over them while the pad sticks to my leg. When pads stick, all that momentum of your full body weight gets tossed in all kinds of weird directions. (and also makes it more difficult for the pad to stay in place if you're not done rekkin yoself)

There is absolutely zero reason for it.....unless you're just into the leotard look.

Are your high opinions of the pad based on how they feel riding or how they work in a crash.....as well as hold up to multiple crashes? (serious question)

I fully admit I've never used them but based on how they're designed I'd also sure as hell never order a pair sight unseen.

 

[jonKranked]

Are your high opinions of the pad based on how they feel riding or how they work in a crash.....as well as hold up to multiple crashes? (serious question)

Both. I've got a year on them now - nearly all downhill (platty, diablo, mt snow, blue mt), a few trail rides, and taken quite a few direct hits on them (i'm talking 8-10). IDK what the "fabric" is they put over it, but its holding up. I can take some pics for you if you want further evidence.

FWIW I also use their elbow pads, which for all intents and purposes are identical, and no issues with those either, although those have scraped off more trees than they've had actual impacts.


edit: and yea, I understand where you're coming from. I was kinda skeptical at first myself, but after a season on them I'm completely sold.

Also, when it comes to downhilling, if your first reaction in a crash is to drop to your knees like a thai hooker, you might be doing it wrong




edit #2: just to further clarify, i'm talking about the VPD pads. It's a dense polymor foam; there's no hard shell to it. They cover it externally in order to keep the protective portion (VPD material) intact during an impact.

 

[kidwoo]

I just assumed it was some spandex/thin neoprene stuff but it's not?

I mean regardless of what it is, I still don't see a reason to cover a plastic pad with ANYTHING. I'd love to be enlightened. I mean the reason that's on someof the dirtjumper kneepads out there is to keep plastic from sliding on the inside of jeans on seat pinches.....not really the intent here I would think.

But I definitely trust you.....

 

[jonKranked]

I just assumed it was some spandex/thin neoprene stuff but it's not?

I mean regardless of what it is, I still don't see a reason to cover a plastic pad with ANYTHING. But I definitely trust you.....

No the outer material is actually quite substantial. And its not plastic. Its a dense foam.

Bear in mind, these weren't designed to slide down masonite like a pair of Pro Tecs.

 

[jonKranked]

I'll try to get you some good close up pictures over the weekend. I'm actually working on a long term review of them as well.

 

[kidwoo]

Oh god there's not even any plastic in them? So when you stuff your knee onto a rock, that foam conforms to the rock and REALLY wants to grab it?


Yeah I'll definitely never buy those

 

[jonKranked]

Oh god there's not even any plastic in them? So when you stuff your knee onto a rock, that foam conforms to the rock and REALLY wants to grab it?


Yeah I'll definitely never buy those

I used foam as a layman's term, its the easiest way to describe it. Its technically a viscoelastic polymer, in that it reacts differently to deformation based on a number of factors since it has both viscous and elastic properties.

Translation:

if you slowly press your thumb into it, it'll leave an imprint before returning to original form.

If you wail on it with a hammer, it'll respond like a rigid thermoplastic and bounce right off.


More details here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viscoelasticity

 

[kidwoo]

So it's like having big ole fake titties on your knees. Can't be all bad I guess.


Yeah I remember reading about the stuff when those pads came out. Seemed like a good material to put UNDER a plastic cap.

 

[jonKranked]

Yeah I remember reading about the stuff when those pads came out. Seemed like a good material to put UNDER a plastic cap.

Maybe for Dj'ing or vert riding, where resistance to abrasion to major slides is more of a factor.

 

[kidwoo]

I've still never seen a system that handles impact dispersion better than a rigid cap.

One tiny little poke gets spread out across the entire surface.....

Plus nothing that conforms to what's being hit will allow you to move across the surface of it as well.

Just explaining my reasoning....not chastising what works for you or anything.

 

[jonKranked]

I've still never seen a system that handles impact dispersion better than a rigid cap.

One tiny little poke gets spread out across the entire surface.....

Plus nothing that conforms to what's being hit will allow you to move across the surface of it as well.

Just explaining my reasoning....not chastising you or anything.

No I understand you're not just giving me a hard time, but I'm not sure you quite understand viscoelasticity.

Yes, these handle impacts better than a rigid cap. Rigid materials - at least the plastics used for armor - have basically static absorption curves - ie they respond basically the same way no matter how hard you hit it (up until failure). Viscoelastic materials absord impacts more dynamically; that is, its response is dependent on the duration and force of the impact.

More importantly, it (the POC VPD) absorbs the impact while dispersing it; which is something rigid materials (ie the hard plastic) can't. They can disperse impact force, but have very poor impact absorption properties. Take a look at your hard shell pads, they all have some sort of foam lining which serves the purpose of impact absorption; but don't do as good of a job at it as a viscoelastic material.


Also, if you're hitting them against something hard enough, it won't conform to that object. Whereas by wearing them, your body heat warms them, makes it more pliable (and actually more effective since you're adding energy to them via heat), they conform to your knees better, which also helps distribute the impact force.

 

[kidwoo]

No in understand, but I'm not sure you quite understand viscoelasticity.

Come on......

My BS is in biochemistry with a senior thesis in polymer science with regards to recycled materials in prosthetics. I'm familiar with the concept. Even if I wasn't, I can read the same things you have. It ain't rocket surgery. Hell, a trashbag full of motor oil behaves similarly. Everything you stated deals with ONE impact very well.

I'm also familiar with crashing and know I don't want a surface that conforms in any way beyond scoring to what I'm hitting. I'll eat my words if those things manage to literally duplicate the rigidity on impact of a hardshell. I'm saying this because I've wrenched my back using pads that stick to rocks more than a plasic cap would. I'm sure these are better but it's still the same idea. Have you ever knee slid on them? Post a video of you running and jumping to your knees on dirt without getting thrown to your face and I'll shut up. I'm not talking about crashing at 10mph and stopping. I recognize the benefits of the material. And I think it would work really well underneath a plastic cap instead of a fun bag™ I think that setup would rule actually. As it sits right now, they still exibit a trait that will keep me from buying them. That's me, it doesn't have to be everyone else. I recongnize that I'm somewhat physically incapable of crashing without pulling the thai hooker

edit: tell ya what.....send me a pair. If I like them, I'll pay for them

 

[jonKranked]

Come on......

My BS is in biochemistry with a senior thesis in polymer science with regards to recycled materials in prosthetics. I'm familiar with the concept. Even if I wasn't, I can read the same things you have. It ain't rocket surgery. Everything you stated deals with ONE impact very well.

I'm also familiar with crashing and know I don't want a surface that conforms in any way beyond scoring to what I'm hitting. I'm saying this because I've wrenched my back using pads that stick to rocks more than a plasic cap would. I'm sure these are better but it's still the same idea. Have you ever knee slid on them? Post a video of you running and jumping to your knees on dirt without getting thrown to your face and I'll shut up. I'm not talking about crashing at 10mph and stopping. I recognize the benefits of the material. And I think it would work really well underneath a plastic cap instead of a fun bag™ I think that setup would rule actually. As it sits right now, they still exibit a trait that will keep me from buying them. That's me, it doesn't have to be everyone else. I recongnize that I'm somewhat physically incapable of crashing without pulling the thai hooker

that's great you studied polymers. I know tons of polymer chemists who could tell you all about resins & modifiers, crystalization, long chain density distribution, and a dozen other things, but couldn't tell me a damn thing about impact transmissibility.


Again, to reiterate - during an impact they wouldn't conform to whatever it is you're impacting against. Throw that notion out.

Also, 9 times out of 10 I don't slide when I fall. It's called tuck n roll. This is from downhilling experience; I'm no dirtjumper.

I'll respond more later; I'm off to Platty for the weekend.


also, the thai hooker crash


but yea, i see your point. this material combined with a hard outer shell would pretty much dominate for DJ and park usage.

 

[kidwoo]

Hey I also stayed at a holiday inn last night!

 

[Pegboy]

Prosthetics you say? That is my profession in which we have a product we refer to as T foam. It is related in some form to the VPD foam and does have impact resistant properties. We had a 4" thick sheet of the stuff in our lab; you can compress it with light pressure between your fingers down to about 1/2- 3/4". I decided one day to punch it full force...I thought I broke my hand..it may as well have been wood. I am fully certain that you understand the concept. It will conform to your knee, and therefor be very comfortable and stationary but it will not conform to surfaces that it impacts quickly with.

That being said, I fully agree with you when it comes to sliding...no way it will do so with an exposed or fabric surface. But...It will slow you down quicker

 

[Sandwich]

ok...so can we go back to talking about van halen resurrection brand kneepads? that was way more interesting than this...

but seriously, I agree with kidwoo...give me a hard cap AND THEN viscoelastic garbage and I think I'll be happier than either alternative. I know what it's supposed to do, but some rocks are sharp and I honestly feel that you may as well bring as much protection to the game as possible...giving up sharp impact protection or glance impact protection just doesn't seem smart, even if you get better direct impact transfer...but I'm old school, I like shin pads, so what do I know?

 

[kidwoo]

Prosthetics you say? That is my profession in which we have a product we refer to as T foam. It is related in some form to the VPD foam and does have impact resistant properties. We had a 4" thick sheet of the stuff in our lab; you can compress it with light pressure between your fingers down to about 1/2- 3/4". I decided one day to punch it full force...I thought I broke my hand..it may as well have been wood. I am fully certain that you understand the concept. It will conform to your knee, and therefor be very comfortable and stationary but it will not conform to surfaces that it impacts quickly with.

That being said, I fully agree with you when it comes to sliding...no way it will do so with an exposed or fabric surface. But...It will slow you down quicker

T foam pectoral implants have been a long term goal of mine.

I don't know guys, jon just introduced a term called 'tuck and roll'. In my years of skateboarding, bmx, and mountain bike riding, I've never heard of this new approach. I might just have to give it a try. Sounds revolutionary and innovative!
(you deserved that J )

I'll definitely look for a pair of these things to check out. All I really wanted was to state my skepticism. And like I said, it's certainly valid enough to me to not buy a pair sight unseen.

 

[rigidhack]

FWIW, I have always used Roach/Race Face knee/shins. I like them, except for the fact that they tend to shift, exposing the spot above my kneecap. This time around I was going to go with the POC Bones, but found them to be WAY too short for me. I am waiting for the delivery of some Fox Launch pads, mostly because they were really affordable. I'll post my impressions when they arrive.

 

[Sandwich]

fox launch and 661 PROs are on my list...just not sure which ones to get. Worried about sizing mostly. I hear really good things about the launch pads from REAL riders, aka lots of people who ride just like I do and crash just like I do, and they like them. Others haven't had as much luck. I guess I'd rather hear good and bad things about an item than ONLY good (and only bad for that matter).

The posts in the other thread about the PRO pads sounded really really positive, but I still have a scar on my knee (14 years later) from my first set of 661 pads...and they pretty much disintegrated after that.

 

[Huck Banzai]

The actual substance and nature of the discussion at hand has made my little brain hurt.

One of you better 'win' this soon so I can order some damn pads!



Im like the THE (!) and the POC VPD -- I totally get Kidwoos' comments about sliding. I notice it most in body armor as Im often clipping my giant shoulders on trees, and a plastic cap deflects you off of it, where a cloth pad my take an impact - but MUST because im stuck to the damn tree (or get spun, etc..) instead of 'bouncing off'

VPD is frikkin cool tho - theres a video of someone with a piece on their back I think and getting hit with a bat.. very impressive (but does not slide/deflect)

Babble.

Rant.

Derp.

 

[khoolhandz]

So what's the difference between this VPD foam and D3O? I owned 661 D3O knees and though they work, the're o good for sharp impacts (like sharp jagged rocks).

Now I have. TROY LEE 5450 knee/shin and loving it.

 

[buckoW]

D3o and VPD is the same stuff but the latest mixes of D3o don't get hard in the cold. The D3o functions much like a hard shell and the new molds pass the impact tests (Euro standards) as well as hard shell pads. I think it still needs a layer of inner foam like a hard shell pad to be comfortable in a crash otherwise it feels to me like crashing with just a plastic shell and nothing between that and your knee. I have been doing lots of tests and prototypes to figure this stuff out and it is pretty interesting but for me it replaces the hard plastic layer in a traditional pad, not all the layers.

Here is a vid of me sewing stuff for pad prototyping.

http://www.bikekulture-mag.com/V2/Ben-Walker-Webisode-1-Ben-La.html

 

[khoolhandz]

D3o and VPD is the same stuff but the latest mixes of D3o don't get hard in the cold. The D3o functions much like a hard shell and the new molds pass the impact tests (Euro standards) as well as hard shell pads. I think it still needs a layer of inner foam like a hard shell pad to be comfortable in a crash otherwise it feels to me like crashing with just a plastic shell and nothing between that and your knee.

http://www.bikekulture-mag.com/V2/Ben-Walker-Webisode-1-Ben-La.html

I crashed hard last year on a rock quarry trail and my knee hit the sharp end of a jagged rock pretty hard. I was wearing the 661 D3O pad and I know I hit a sharp edge cause I felt it and had a narrow bruising. If I was wearing a knee pad with hard plastic shell I'm pretty sure I would not have felt it as the impact force would have been spread instead of focused.

Hence the reason why I went to a pad with hard shell. Didn't think D3O was a good replacement for hard shells.

 

[rigidhack]

If the POC Bone was made in an XL (for length) I'd probably go with it. It has a hard cap over VPD, which seems like what I would want, given the number of sharp rocks where I ride.

 

[buckoW]

I crashed hard last year on a rock quarry trail and my knee hit the sharp end of a jagged rock pretty hard. I was wearing the 661 D3O pad and I know I hit a sharp edge cause I felt it and had a narrow bruising. If I was wearing a knee pad with hard plastic shell I'm pretty sure I would not have felt it as the impact force would have been spread instead of focused.

Hence the reason why I went to a pad with hard shell. Didn't think D3O was a good replacement for hard shells.

Did you have the original/first version?

The original 661 doesn't pass the impact lab tests and there are new moulds, like in the Race Face pads, similar to the POC with D3o that do. I agree that the first D3o 661 pads are scary to crash with.

With the new mould (more and thicker D3o) and more foam behind the D3o it starts to work. I have tried some plastic outside the D3o and feel like it doesn't help if there is proper padding inside the D3o insert. I was originally skeptical but found a way to make it work. I wear hard shell pads mostly but when used correctly D3o can work well, IMO.

 

[khoolhandz]

Did you have the original/first version?

The original 661 doesn't pass the impact lab tests and there are new moulds, like in the Race Face pads, similar to the POC with D3o that do. I agree that the first D3o 661 pads are scary to crash with.

With the new mould (more and thicker D3o) and more foam behind the D3o it starts to work. I have tried some plastic outside the D3o and feel like it doesn't help if there is proper padding inside the D3o insert. I was originally skeptical but found a way to make it work. I wear hard shell pads mostly but when used correctly D3o can work well, IMO.

I had the originals for sure when they first came out.

 

[Shenzi]

some new stuff coming our way www.pinkbike.com/news/Dainese-Oak-Pro-Aluminum-Knee-Pads-Eurobike-2011.html

I heard these new knee-guards will also come with BOA without Aluminum cup, without BOA with aluminum cup, and the simple no Aluminum/no BOA version.

 

[frorider]

glad there'll be a non-BOA version.

BOA for ski and snowboard boots works OK (until it fails, and then it's a pain to repair) but in those applications the boa system is on the liner typically, or located on the front of shin where abrasion damage isn't an issue.

but a BOA knob sticking out above your knee seems destined to fail. Not to mention all the exterior stitching I see here that will probably get abraded, leading to BOA failure as well.

 

[Sandwich]

I could extra dig those if they ditched the aluminum for plastic. Should be lighter and just as impact resistant. I have to laugh- e13 is claiming that their plastic pedals with 4mm long pins slide over rocks, and dainese is claiming that an aluminum cap on a kneepad surrounded by fabric will slide over rocks. uh huh.

The boa system sounds good until it flyies off in a wreck or leaves a nasty bruise on your thigh from an impact...