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Lance: clean or no?

Lance- clean or no?

  • Clean

    Votes: 15 22.7%

  • ...or no

    Votes: 31 47.0%

  • Bacon

    Votes: 20 30.3%
  • Total voters
    66
JohnE

JohnE

filthy rascist
May 13, 2005
13,447
1,970
Front Range, dude...
With the ending of his career, and impending waste of taxpayer monies due to overzealous idiots who cant beleive he has more racing talent in one testicle then they do with two and insist on grand jury investigations, a simple poll...

Is Lance clean or no?

I say clean...but I want to beleive. He has been tested so many times and so far, even w/ the French wanting him to, has not popped positive. Should he prove dirty, I will be let down on a scale approaching when I learned my ex was not faithful. No, I knew she was dirty...
 
dhmike

dhmike

Turbo Monkey
Dec 20, 2006
4,304
43
Boise Idaho
i also say clean . landis and lemond need to go away and get over the fact that armstrong is a better rider then they ever were .
 
stevew

stevew

resident influencer
Sep 21, 2001
40,593
9,603
i hope they only find traces of the finest black tar heroin in his blood.
 
Westy

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
54,440
20,245
Sleazattle
Lance was tested a whole bunch of times, and he probably never did anything that he was tested for. He conveniently retired before the EPO test came out, there is that nasty little rumor that his old blood tested positive for it too. Looking at all of the evidence you would have to be a fool to think he didn't. The most damning evidence being that Frankie Andreau testified that Lanced had admitted to him that he used EPO. Frankie had nothing to gain, in fact everything to lose by testifying. Frankie never said anything more outside of court, he just didn't lie when under oath.

I don't think doping should lessen any of Armstrong's achievements in any way. Everyone was doing it. Pretty much every person he ever beat has pretty much proven to be a doper, it was a level playing field.
 
Westy

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
54,440
20,245
Sleazattle
There were only 6 men who were able to podium behind lance during his 7 victories. I won't even go into the top 5 or 10 finishers who were caught.

Ivan Basso
Jan Ulrich
Andreas Kloden
Vino
Joseba Beloki
Raimondas Rumsas
Alex Zulle
Fernando Escartin

Ulrich, basso and Vino caught and banned.

Beloki implicated in Puerto and retired.

So Kloden was never caught but there have been these accusations: In 2009 allegations emerged claiming that Andreas Klöden used the Freiburg University Clinic for an illegal blood transfusion during the 2006 Tour de France.

Don't remember Rumsas, how about this
On the day of Rumšas' third place finish in the 2002 Tour de France, police discovered corticoids, erythropoietin, testosterone, growth hormones and anabolic steroids in the car of his wife, Edita Rumšienė.[1] She was jailed for several months before being released, despite her claim that the drugs were for her mother-in-law.
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Alex Zulle, admitted to taking EPO in the Festina debacle.

Fernando Escatin was the only man that I couldn't find significant evidence pointint towards him being a doper. Lance beat him by over 10 minutes.

Should we go into the long list of Lance's team-mates that have been caught doping? Postal ruled the peloton like no team has ever been able to do. Even if Lance was cleen a long list of dopers dragged his ass to victory year after year.
 
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jdcamb

jdcamb

Tool Time!
Feb 17, 2002
19,838
8,438
Nowhere Man!
I got high with Lance in the parking lot of Momma Lucias in Frederick Maryland. He tried to sell me his bike to get more crack. He was a fiend!
 
TheTruth

TheTruth

Turbo Monkey
Jun 15, 2009
3,893
1
I'm waving. Can you see me now?
Westy said:
Lance was tested a whole bunch of times, and he probably never did anything that he was tested for. He conveniently retired before the EPO test came out, there is that nasty little rumor that his old blood tested positive for it too. Looking at all of the evidence you would have to be a fool to think he didn't. The most damning evidence being that Frankie Andreau testified that Lanced had admitted to him that he used EPO. Frankie had nothing to gain, in fact everything to lose by testifying. Frankie never said anything more outside of court, he just didn't lie when under oath.

I don't think doping should lessen any of Armstrong's achievements in any way. Everyone was doing it. Pretty much every person he ever beat has pretty much proven to be a doper, it was a level playing field.
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A court case? R U effing kidding me?! Is there some kind of new McCarthyism that I do not know about? Is everyone just going to accuse everyone of being a doper and take it to court?

"You are a dirty doper! You are going to jail!!!!"
 
jdcamb

jdcamb

Tool Time!
Feb 17, 2002
19,838
8,438
Nowhere Man!
TheTruth said:
A court case? R U effing kidding me?! Is there some kind of new McCarthyism that I do not know about? Is everyone just going to accuse everyone of being a doper and take it to court?

"You are a dirty doper! You are going to jail!!!!"
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They occasionally put folks who use illegal drugs in jail. Our prisons are full of innocent heroes....
 
BikeMike

BikeMike

Monkey
Feb 24, 2006
784
0
Fernando Escatin was riding for Kelme, who's team doctor happened to the famous Dr. Fuentes. Fernando's name also surfaced in some Italian investigation of suspected dopers, though I don't think anything ever came of it. In addition to the Kelme team as a whole later being linked to systematic doping and collapsing, many of the members from the 1999 team have been implicated or convicted.

IMHO, there is no remotely reasonable way to believe that Lance beat everyone else, all of whom were on the dope, without doping. He was just smart about how he did it and didn't get caught. There's still not a good way to detect autologus blood transfusions.
 
JohnE

JohnE

filthy rascist
May 13, 2005
13,447
1,970
Front Range, dude...
BikeMike said:
He was just smart about how he did it and didn't get caught.
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Like how? Everyone seems to think he doped, but no one knows how. He is, after all, a product of a broken home, raised by a single Mom, with no ejumakashun beyond HS. How did he do it and get away with it, when so many others didnt who aided him? Surely, if he is dirty, there are dozens more who would have benefitted from the same masking technology...yet so many others got caught. How so?
 
loco-gringo

loco-gringo

Crusading Clamp Monkey
Sep 27, 2006
8,887
14
Deep in the heart of TEXAS
JohnE said:
Like how? Everyone seems to think he doped, but no one knows how.
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Just a bit of speculation...but, the CERA tests came about in '07 sometime. Several got tagged and Lance retired. The allegations and convictions involving CERA subsided and enters Lance.

I like what Lance has done for cycling, and it's nice that Texas (which is some evil state to so many people) is home to America's best ever cyclist, but it seems fishy.

I don't know Lance, so I can't agree with JBP, but I'll say two things -

he opened his place in Drippin' up for me to ride and to race mtn bikes on.


...and I understand that he's been a prick to many people I know.

I have nothing constructive to add.
 
B

blue

boob hater
Jan 24, 2004
10,160
2
california
Doper, though I think it's one of the least of his faults - as has been said, everyone was on the sauce. I'd rather he got reamed for exploiting the terminally ill for personal gain, but hey, diff'rent strokes...

I too wish he would just go away.
 
HAB

HAB

Chelsea from Seattle
Apr 28, 2007
11,580
2,006
Seattle
I figure he's probably as chemically enhanced as anyone else racing at that level at that time, but the reason he's never tested positive is that he may not even have done anything that was, at the time, technically illegal. Since drugs have to be banned on a case by case basis (or else where do you draw the line? Is a multivitamin with your OJ in the morning cheating?) he may well have just been far enough ahead of the curve that he was taking stuff they hadn't gotten around to banning yet. I haven't read up on the history of the rules to fully explore the plausibility of this, but I think it at least makes sense.
 
BikeMike

BikeMike

Monkey
Feb 24, 2006
784
0
JohnE said:
Like how? Everyone seems to think he doped, but no one knows how. He is, after all, a product of a broken home, raised by a single Mom, with no ejumakashun beyond HS. How did he do it and get away with it, when so many others didnt who aided him? Surely, if he is dirty, there are dozens more who would have benefitted from the same masking technology...yet so many others got caught. How so?
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Are you sure you want that answered?

Dozens (hundreds, probably) benefited from very similar techniques, and just a few of them got caught. The high profile guys got caught because of the Fuentes thing. Lance may have dodged a bullet there. (He also worked with Ferrari, who was like a better version of Fuentes.) Lance got out just when things got really dicey. Guys who got caught were those still in the game.

How can you do it and not get caught? Or a guide to doping without getting caught:
--edited. a big chunk of text. I'm not sure it's a great idea to put a compendium of methods out, even if it's quite general in nature. The essence was that there are lots of ways to skin this cat, and none of them are rocket science. Mostly it helps to have a connection to someone with a bit of medical or scientific training. Also, to re-emphasize: autologous blood doping. They can't detect it.--

The toughest part is figuring out how to not get caught with stuff in your possession. This only requires half a brain (or none at all if someone does it for you/helps you with it).

As an aside, there are these things called AMPK agonists. One was administered orally to sedentary mice for a few weeks. The running endurance of the mice increased ~44%. ... Without any exercise.

Sorry, I feel like the grinch, bearing bad news. I was pretty crushed when it turned out everyone was cheating. Hamilton, Floyd, and eventually, everyone who Lance consistently destroyed turned out to be on the dope. And this stuff can make a big difference. Reality sunk in, and I stopped watching cycling for a year or so. I wasn't sure if I'd ever follow pro cycling again. Now I don't care as much if they're cheating or not, as long as they don't preach cleanliness.

Also, I don't buy the "level playing field because they were all doping" argument. It's true that grit and training play a huge part, but a superior "program" would also make a big difference. (If you're one for rumors, Lance was with Fuentes in 2003, as Ferrari was on trial, and Ulrich was also with Fuentes. Close tour that year, eh? Don't know that there's evidence there for it to be credible, but it's definitely an interesting thought.)

I still have a framed poster of Lance winning on top of Alpe d'Huez, but it's not on a wall anymore. He also now seems like a jerk. Definitely not the role model from the early years. :(
 
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I Are Baboon

I Are Baboon

The Full Dopey
Aug 6, 2001
32,424
9,469
MTB New England
He was probably taking something, as was everyone. Maybe Lance's were different or better or he was just ahead of the curve. I honestly don't care enough to read into this further or have a lengthy discussion about it.
 
ire

ire

Turbo Monkey
Aug 6, 2007
6,196
4
I was talking with a friend the other day about all of the crazy stuff teams do to help their riders. I'm sure you've seen articles about Garmin and the ice vests, pressurized leg things, etc. IMO these technologies are very similar to doping, they just aren't banned. If you spend 10hrs a day in an altitude tent, or are fortunate enough to own a second home at high altitude, they don't ban you yet you gain some of the same benefits as injectable drugs that are banned. Personally, I don't care if they are doped. Cycling, like any sport, is entertainment. It's hypocritical for the average American to criticize athletes who have doped when they're all jacked up on medication to deal with their health issues. Taking a pill is easier than taking care of yourself.
[/RANT]

On topic, I think he doped.
 
Sandwich

Sandwich

Pig my fish!
Staff member
May 23, 2002
21,077
5,991
borcester rhymes
word, I don't think less of him for doping, I think they all do it at the highest level, the ones who are smart don't get caught. I just think he's a jerk, exploited his fame and condition, and I'm sick of seeing his scrawny ass on every advertisement around.
 
TheTruth

TheTruth

Turbo Monkey
Jun 15, 2009
3,893
1
I'm waving. Can you see me now?
ire said:
I was talking with a friend the other day about all of the crazy stuff teams do to help their riders. I'm sure you've seen articles about Garmin and the ice vests, pressurized leg things, etc. IMO these technologies are very similar to doping, they just aren't banned. If you spend 10hrs a day in an altitude tent, or are fortunate enough to own a second home at high altitude, they don't ban you yet you gain some of the same benefits as injectable drugs that are banned. Personally, I don't care if they are doped. Cycling, like any sport, is entertainment. It's hypocritical for the average American to criticize athletes who have doped when they're all jacked up on medication to deal with their health issues. Taking a pill is easier than taking care of yourself.
[/RANT]

On topic, I think he doped.
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So what you are saying is that anyone who lives on a mountain is automatically a doper.... I knew it!! Everyone is a doper!!!! Am I a doper?
 
narlus

narlus

Eastcoast Softcore
Staff member
Nov 7, 2001
24,658
63
behind the viewfinder
W4S said:
Amgen developed EPO as a cancer fighting drug, Lance had cancer, He took EPO as a legitimate drug to help him in his fight against cancer.
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EPO doesn't fight cancer, but it does increase yr hematocrit count by increasing production of red blood cells.


i often wonder how different my life would be had Amgen not prevailed over Genetics Institute (my old company) in that lawsuit...
 
CBJ

CBJ

year old fart
Mar 19, 2002
12,878
4,220
Copenhagen, Denmark
T

TKCastle

Monkey
Sep 13, 2006
685
1
The ****ing Catalina wine mixer.
I think we should have one clean and one chemical enhanced versions of all sports. Increase the center field wall to 600 ft. build a giant hump in the center of a football field so each team needs to run uphill to get to the opponents side and have a tour de europe.

"Welcome, Phil ligget here on the start of this queen stage, Warsaw to Stuggart. the distance is 570 miles or 917.13 kilometers and should take the riders a little over 8 hours".
 
Secret Squirrel

Secret Squirrel

There is no Justice!
Dec 21, 2004
8,150
1
Up sh*t creek, without a paddle
TKCastle said:
I think we should have one clean and one chemical enhanced versions of all sports. Increase the center field wall to 600 ft. build a giant hump in the center of a football field so each team needs to run uphill to get to the opponents side and have a tour de europe.

"Welcome, Phil ligget here on the start of this queen stage, Warsaw to Stuggart. the distance is 570 miles or 917.13 kilometers and should take the riders a little over 8 hours".
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Get on the autobahn and pedal, b*tch!!!
 
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