Quantcast

Lebanon, Israel and the US Media

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
14,920
2,887
Pōneke
I thought this was an interesting article:

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article1219241.ece

America's one-eyed view of war: Stars, stripes, and the Star of David

There are two sides to every conflict - unless you rely on the US media for information about the battle in Lebanon. Viewers have been fed a diet of partisan coverage which treats Israel as the good guys and their Hizbollah enemy as the incarnation of evil. Andrew Gumbel reports from Los Angeles

Published: 15 August 2006



If these were normal times, the American view of the conflict in Lebanon might look something like the street scenes that have electrified the suburbs of Detroit for the past four weeks.

In Dearborn, home to the Ford Motor Company and also the highest concentration of Arab Americans in the country, up to 1000 people have turned out day after day to express their outrage at the Israeli military campaign and mourn the loss of civilian life in Lebanon. At one protest in late July, 15,000 people - almost half of the local Arab American population - showed up in a sea of Lebanese flags, along with anti-Israeli and anti-Bush slogans.

A few miles to the north, in the heavily Jewish suburb of Southfield, meanwhile, the Congregation Shaarey Zedek synagogue has played host to passionate counter-protests in which the US and Israeli national anthems are played back to back and demonstrators have asserted that it is Israel's survival, not Lebanon's, that is at stake here.

Such is the normal exercise of free speech in an open society, one might think. But these are not normal times. The Detroit protests have been tinged with paranoia and justifiable fear on both sides. Several Jewish institutions in the area, including two community centres and several synagogues, have hired private security guards in response to an incident in Seattle at the end of July, in which a mentally unstable 30-year-old Muslim walked into a Jewish Federation building and opened fire, killing one person and injuring five others.

On the Arab American side, many have expressed reluctance to stand up and be counted among the protesters for fear of being tinged by association with Hizbollah, which is on the United States' list of terrorist organisations. (As a result, the voices heard during the protests tend to be the more extreme ones.) They don't like to discuss their political views in any public forum, following the revelation a few months ago that the National Security Agency was wiretapping phone calls and e-mail exchanges as part of the Bush administration's war on terror.

They are even afraid to donate money to help the civilian victims of the war in Lebanon because of the intense scrutiny Islamic and Arab charities have been subjected to since the 9/11 attacks. The Bush administration has denounced 40 charities worldwide as financiers of terrorism, and arrested and deported dozens of people associated with them. Consequently, while Jewish charities such as the United Jewish Communities are busy raising $300m to help families affected by the Katyusha rockets raining down on northern Israel, donations to the Lebanese victims have come in at no more than a trickle.

Outside Detroit and a handful of other cities with sizeable Arab American populations, it is hard to detect that there are two sides to the conflict at all. The Dearborn protests have received almost no attention nationally, and when they have it has usually been to denounce the participants as extremists and apologists for terrorism - either because they have voiced support for Hizbollah or because they have carried banners in which the Star of David at the centre of the Israeli flag has been replaced by a swastika.

The media, more generally, has left little doubt in the minds of a majority of American news consumers that the Israelis are the good guys, the aggrieved victims, while Hizbollah is an incarnation of the same evil responsible for bringing down the World Trade Centre, a heartless and faceless organisation whose destruction is so important it can justify all the damage Israel is inflicting on Lebanon and its civilians.

The point is not that this viewpoint is necessarily wrong. The point - and this is what distinguishes the US from every other Western country in its attitude to the conflict - is that it is presented as a foregone conclusion. Not only is there next to no debate, but debate itself is considered unnecessary and suspect.

The 24-hour cable news stations are the worst offenders. Rupert Murdoch's Fox News has had reporters running around northern Israel chronicling every rocket attack and every Israeli mobilisation, but has shown little or no interest in anything happening on the other side of the border. It is a rarity on any of the cable channels to see any Arab being tapped for expert opinion on the conflict. A startling amount of airtime, meanwhile, is given to the likes of Michael D Evans, an end-of-the-world Biblical "prophet" with no credentials in the complexities of Middle Eastern politics. He has shown up on MSNBC and Fox under the label "Middle East analyst". Fox's default analyst, on this and many other issues, has been the right-wing provocateur and best-selling author Ann Coulter, whose main credential is to have opined, days after 9/11, that what America should do to the Middle East is "invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity".

Often, the coverage has been hysterical and distasteful. In the days following the Israeli bombing of Qana, several pro-Israeli bloggers started spreading a hoax story that Hizbollah had engineered the event, or stage-managed it by placing dead babies in the rubble for the purpose of misleading reporters. Oliver North, the Reagan-era orchestrator of the Iran-Contra affair who is now a right-wing television and radio host, and Michelle Malkin, a sharp-tongued Bush administration cheerleader who runs her own weblog, appeared on Fox News to give credence to the hoax - before the Israeli army came forward to take responsibility and brought the matter to at least a partial close.

As the conflict has gone on, the media interpretation of it has only hardened. Essentially, the line touted by cable news hosts and their correspondents - closely adhering to the line adopted by the Bush administration and its neoconservative supporters - is that Hizbollah is part of a giant anti-Israeli and anti-American terror network that also includes Hamas, al-Qa'ida, the governments of Syria and Iran, and the insurgents in Iraq. Little effort is made to distinguish between these groups, or explain what their goals might be. The conflict is presented as a straight fight between good and evil, in which US interests and Israeli interests intersect almost completely. Anyone who suggests otherwise is likely to be pounced on and ripped to shreds.

When John Dingell, a Democratic congressman from Michigan with a large Arab American population in his constituency, gave an interview suggesting it was wrong for the US to take sides instead of pushing for an end to violence, he was quickly - and loudly - accused of being a Hizbollah apologist. Newt Gingrich, the Republican former House speaker, accused him of failing to draw any moral distinction between Hizbollah and Israel. Rush Limbaugh, the popular conservative talk-show host, piled into him, as did the conservative newspaper The Washington Times. The Times was later forced to admit it had quoted Dingell out of context and reprinted his full words, including: "I condemn Hizbollah, as does everyone else, for the violence."

The hysteria has extended into the realm of domestic politics, especially since this is a congressional election year. Republican have sought to depict last week's primary defeat of the Democratic Senator Joe Lieberman of Connecticut, one of the loudest cheerleaders for the Iraq war, as some sort of wacko extremist anti-Semitic, anti-Israeli stand that risks undermining national security. Vice-President Dick Cheney said Lieberman's defeat would encourage "al-Qa'ida types" to think they can break the will of Americans. The fact that the man who beat Lieberman, Ned Lamont, is an old-fashioned East Coast Wasp who was a registered Republican for much of his life is something Mr Cheney chose to overlook.

Part of the Republican strategy this year is to attack any media that either attacks them or has the temerity to report facts that contradict the official party line. Thus, when Reuters was forced to withdraw a photograph of Beirut under bombardment because one of its stringers had doctored the image to increase the black smoke, it was a chance to rip into the news agency over its efforts to be even-handed. In a typical riposte, Michelle Malkin denounced Reuters as "a news service that seems to have made its mark rubber-stamping pro-Hizbollah propaganda".

She was not the only one to take that view. Mainstream, even liberal, publications have echoed her line. Tim Rutten, the Los Angeles Times liberal media critic, denounced the "obscenely anti-Israeli tenor of most of the European and world press" in his most recent column.

It is not just the US media which tilts in a pro-Israeli direction. Congress, too, is remarkably unified in its support for the Israeli government, and politicians more generally understand that to criticise Israel is to risk jeopardising their future careers. When Antonio Villaraigosa, the up-and-coming Democratic Mayor of Los Angeles, was first invited to comment on the Middle East crisis, he sounded a note so pro-Israeli that he was forced to apologise to local Muslim and Arab community leaders. There is far less public debate of Israeli policy in the US, in fact, than there is in Israel itself.
Cut to fit...
 

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
14,920
2,887
Pōneke
Pt. 2...
This is less a reflection of American Jewish opinion - which is more diverse than is suggested in the media - than it is a commentary on the power of pro-Israeli lobby groups like Aipac, the American-Israeli Political Action Committee, which bankrolls pro-Israeli congressional candidates. That, in turn, is frustrating to liberal Jews like Michael Lerner, a San Francisco rabbi who heads an anti-war community called Tikkun. Rabbi Lerner has tried to argue for years that it is in Israel's best interests to reach a peaceful settlement, and that demonising Arabs as terrorists is counter-productive and against Judaism.

Lerner is probably right to assert that he speaks for a large number of American Jews, only half of whom are affiliated with pro-Israeli lobbying organisations. Certainly, dinner party conversation in heavily Jewish cities like New York suggest misgivings about Israel's strategic aims, even if there is some consensus that Hizbollah cannot be allowed to strike with impunity.

Few, if any, of those misgivings have entered the US media. "There is no major figure in American political life who has been willing to raise the issue of the legitimate needs of the Palestinian people, or even talk about them as human beings," Lerner said. "The organised Jewish community has transformed the image of Judaism into a cheering squad for the Israeli government, whatever its policies are. That is just idolatry, and goes against all the warnings in the Bible about giving too much power to the king or the state."
 

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
14,920
2,887
Pōneke
Too long for the Asians even? Sheesh! :D

Short version: The American Media and Society in general is Israel's gimp.

Look at this for Comedy:

http://www.forbes.com/entrepreneurs/feeds/ap/2006/08/14/ap2949166.html

Bush Says Israel Defeated Hezbollah

President Bush said Monday that Israel defeated Hezbollah's guerrillas in the monthlong Mideast war and that the Islamic militants were to blame for the deaths of hundreds of Lebanese civilians. {snip}
:rolleyes:

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article1219280.ece

Israel's verdict: we lost the war
By Donald Macintyre in Metulla, Israel
Published: 15 August 2006

Ehud Olmert, the Israeli Prime Minister, was obliged to admit "shortcomings" in the 34-day-old conflict in Lebanon yesterday as he launched what may prove a protracted fight for his own political survival.

Mr Olmert's admission in a stormy Knesset session came in the face of devastating poll figures showing a majority of the Israeli public believes none or only a very small part of the goals of the war had been achieved.

Adding insult to injury, the leader of Hizbollah, Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah, crowed on television that his guerrillas had achieved a "strategic historic victory" over Israel. {snip}
It's almost beyond belief. The White House is officially a reality free zone.
 

jaydee

Monkey
Jul 5, 2001
794
0
Victoria BC
Changleen: Both sides share the blame for the continued violence, but I have lots of sympathy for the Lebanese people, some understanding of Israel's position, and no sympathy or understanding for Hizbollah. Scum who set up portable rocket launchers in the midst of women and children and then complain when Israeli rockets strike the area are just using these civilians for political leverage. At least the Israelis aren't hiding behind women's skirts. As stupid as war is, if the Hizbollah put on military uniforms and came out to fight, I'd feel a lot less one-sided on this.
 

Toshi

butthole powerwashing evangelist
Oct 23, 2001
40,255
9,129
if they put uniforms on and marched in lockstep (yes, i'm attempting to conjure up the british redcoats here) then the israelis would wipe them off the map with their u.s.-sourced F16s and the like. direct warfare simply is not an option, and you can indirectly blame the u.s. itself for that.
 

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
14,920
2,887
Pōneke
jaydee said:
Changleen: Both sides share the blame for the continued violence, but I have lots of sympathy for the Lebanese people, some understanding of Israel's position, and no sympathy or understanding for Hizbollah. Scum who set up portable rocket launchers in the midst of women and children and then complain when Israeli rockets strike the area are just using these civilians for political leverage.
I don't think I recall Hezbollah themselves complaining.
At least the Israelis aren't hiding behind women's skirts. As stupid as war is, if the Hizbollah put on military uniforms and came out to fight, I'd feel a lot less one-sided on this.
Seriously? "If Hezbollah behaved like a modern western army so Israel could more easily pick groups of them out of a crowd from an unmanned predator drone and laser guided bomb the sh1t out of them, I'd feel a lot less one sided"??

Maybe you could buy them some nice western style uniforms then? Maybe some better western guns too to make it a bit more gentlemanly?
 

jaydee

Monkey
Jul 5, 2001
794
0
Victoria BC
I'm not saying they should do that, just that I have no respect for them. And you're right, they don't complain, only the families of people they cause to get killed are complaining. But if the Hizbollah continue to use human shields, a large part of the blame for civilian casualties in Lebanon lies with the Hizbollah. By your reasoning, do you expect the Israelis to say "We can't attack those militants, there are civilians around them"?
 

rockwool

Turbo Monkey
Apr 19, 2004
2,658
0
Filastin
-I don't get from what all the whining is comming from..

"On the Arab American side, many have expressed reluctance to stand up and be counted among the protesters for fear of being tinged by association with Hizbollah, which is on the United States' list of terrorist organisations. (As a result, the voices heard during the protests tend to be the more extreme ones.) They don't like to discuss their political views in any public forum, following the revelation a few months ago that the National Security Agency was wiretapping phone calls and e-mail exchanges as part of the Bush administration's war on terror."

"They are even afraid to donate money to help the civilian victims of the war in Lebanon because of the intense scrutiny Islamic and Arab charities have been subjected to since the 9/11 attacks. The Bush administration has denounced 40 charities worldwide as financiers of terrorism, and arrested and deported dozens of people associated with them."
-It's simple. Love it or leavit!

"Consequently, while Jewish charities such as the United Jewish Communities are busy raising $300m to help families affected by the Katyusha rockets raining down on northern Israel, donations to the Lebanese victims have come in at no more than a trickle."
-Go Israel! :thumb:

"The media, more generally, has left little doubt in the minds of a majority of American news consumers that the Israelis are the good guys, the aggrieved victims, while Hizbollah is an incarnation of the same evil responsible for bringing down the World Trade Centre, a heartless and faceless organisation whose destruction is so important it can justify all the damage Israel is inflicting on Lebanon and its civilians."
-Israel Israel Israel!!!

"The point is not that this viewpoint is necessarily wrong. The point - and this is what distinguishes the US from every other Western country in its attitude to the conflict - is that it is presented as a foregone conclusion. Not only is there next to no debate, but debate itself is considered unnecessary and suspect."
-Pffft, terrorist Hizbollah propaganda..

"The 24-hour cable news stations are the worst offenders. Rupert Murdoch's Fox News has had reporters running around northern Israel chronicling every rocket attack and every Israeli mobilisation, but has shown little or no interest in anything happening on the other side of the border. It is a rarity on any of the cable channels to see any Arab being tapped for expert opinion on the conflict."
-Buy your own TV stations. :nopity:

"A startling amount of airtime, meanwhile, is given to the likes of Michael D Evans, an end-of-the-world Biblical "prophet" with no credentials in the complexities of Middle Eastern politics. He has shown up on MSNBC and Fox under the label "Middle East analyst". Fox's default analyst, on this and many other issues, has been the right-wing provocateur and best-selling author Ann Coulter, whose main credential is to have opined, days after 9/11, that what America should do to the Middle East is "invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity"."
-And make a parking space of the whole Middle East! :weee:

"Oliver North, the Reagan-era orchestrator of the Iran-Contra affair who is now a right-wing television and radio host, and Michelle Malkin, a sharp-tongued Bush administration cheerleader"
-The back-bone of America!

"The conflict is presented as a straight fight between good and evil, in which US interests and Israeli interests intersect almost completely. Anyone who suggests otherwise is likely to be pounced on and ripped to shreds."
-FUKK YEAH!!!

"John Dingell, a Democratic congressman /.../ pushing for an end to violence"
- :nope: War is Peace.

"Vice-President Dick Cheney said Lieberman's defeat would encourage "al-Qa'ida types" to think they can break the will of Americans."
-Al-Qa'ida don't know what time it is...out on the streets suicide bombing and don't know what time it is....

"Mainstream, even liberal, publications have echoed her line. Tim Rutten, the Los Angeles Times liberal media critic, denounced the "obscenely anti-Israeli tenor of most of the European and world press" in his most recent column."
-See how biased they are? The whole world can't have right. :nope: :nope: :nope: The US and Israel can't be wrong. They have FREE PRESS!!

"It is not just the US media which tilts in a pro-Israeli direction. Congress, too, is remarkably unified in its support for the Israeli government, and politicians more generally understand that to criticise Israel is to risk jeopardising their future careers."
"This is less a reflection of American Jewish opinion - which is more diverse than is suggested in the media - than it is a commentary on the power of pro-Israeli lobby groups like Aipac, the American-Israeli Political Action Committee, which bankrolls pro-Israeli congressional candidates."
-This is pure propaganda and I will prove that in an other thread soon.

""There is no major figure in American political life who has been willing to raise the issue of the legitimate needs of the Palestinian people, or even talk about them as human beings," Lerner said. "The organised Jewish community has transformed the image of Judaism into a cheering squad for the Israeli government, whatever its policies are. That is just idolatry, and goes against all the warnings in the Bible about giving too much power to the king or the state.""
-More commie propaganda. :looney:


Truth is: Self critisism is for poofters. USA and Israel is the worlds greatest democracies and every body else are just jealous of their freedom. :trophy_br :trophy_br
 

ALEXIS_DH

Tirelessly Awesome
Jan 30, 2003
6,261
881
Lima, Peru, Peru
Toshi said:
if they put uniforms on and marched in lockstep (yes, i'm attempting to conjure up the british redcoats here) then the israelis would wipe them off the map with their u.s.-sourced F16s and the like. direct warfare simply is not an option, and you can indirectly blame the u.s. itself for that.
hmm.. did you just justified/condoned the means for an end?
 

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
14,920
2,887
Pōneke
jaydee said:
I'm not saying they should do that, just that I have no respect for them. And you're right, they don't complain, only the families of people they cause to get killed are complaining. But if the Hizbollah continue to use human shields, a large part of the blame for civilian casualties in Lebanon lies with the Hizbollah. By your reasoning, do you expect the Israelis to say "We can't attack those militants, there are civilians around them"?
Well, it is my personal opinion that the scale and methods used in 'retaliation' for the supposed kidnapping (although as you may have seen there are real doubts about this) were totally illegal, immoral and disproportionate. (1300+ civilian lives and a massive oil spill in a failed attempt to supposedly have just 2 soldiers released? Seriously?) So I'd say Israel were totally out of line to be trying to kill millitants in civiliain areas. They were totally out of line to be in Lebanon in the first place.

However they did go in, and when Hezbollah started to retaliate with rocket attacks they did use these tactics which involved using massive laser guided bombs against, in a lot of cases, one or two people. When you use a one or two thousand pound armament in such a situation, there is bound to be a considerable amount of splash damage.

It is worth remembering that Hizbollah did not exclusively use civilian areas to attack from, but the fact is they only have primative short range weapons, they have to get near their enemy to use them. This means staying under cover, hiding from Israel's spy satellites, Predator drones, various helicopters.. It's no wonder that a built up area is a often the only choice to achieve this. However, they also used olive groves, graveyards, in fact anything that gave them a bit of cover. If you were them, it is logical that you would switch it up as much as possible right?

I really doubt many a Hezbollah fighter intentionally went into a highly populated building thinking "Ah the Israelis won't hit me here" because they had shown so many times that they would hit the building anyway. Despite what Fox News tells you these guys don't want their families and neighbours to be obliterated for no reason.

The fact is that Israel choose to go after far more than militant targets - bridges, airports, roads, the oil refinery (what were they thinking there? - thanks for the huge oil slick along the coast!) Even the garrisons of the regular Lebanese army. Part of this was their declared targeting of 'offices of Hizbollah' and related buildings which, since Hezbollah provide various social services, and have thousands of members spread across the region, basically meant that Israel were destroying civilian areas with reckless abandon. If a suspected memeber of Hizbollah happens to live in a large tower block (as did happen many times) Israel 'target' his flat with a 2000lb bomb, there's not much left of the entire block, or probably the blocks next door and across the street either.

Tactics like this are cowardly to me. Israel were the invading force, they could have choosen to do the more honourable thing and use footsoldiers to sweep and occupy the areas, obviously at a much greater cost in personell and time. They choose not to do this for the same reason Hezbollah choose not to don uniforms and march rank and file into the line of Israeli tanks.

Basically both sides did what they thought was the most effecient method of fighting for their situation and political needs. However we must remember that even using their primative unguided rockets, Hezbollahs ratio of soldier vs. civilian deaths was almost 10x better, and numerically 10x smaller than the mighty advanced Israeli army. That is a horribly disproportionate response on behalf of Israel. I think most of the world can see that very plainly, and the Arab world in particular has now been polarised beyond anything we've seen in recent history against the US and Israel - they see clearly that whatever Washington says about democracy and freedom means nothing in practice. It is no wonder the US is in the situation it has found itself in. This was highly predictable, but the US just let it happen anyway. Be sure to thank you leaders for the generations of latent, avoidable hatred you have caused for yourselves across a good 1/3 of the globe.
 

rockwool

Turbo Monkey
Apr 19, 2004
2,658
0
Filastin
Changleen said:
Hezbollah choose not to don uniforms and march rank and file into the line of Israeli tanks.
I think Hizbollah soldiers are wearing uniform, but I'm not 100% on this one though, and that it is a black t-shirt and a camo pant.

Marcing rank and file is old type warfare. Don't expect the Polish to have a cavalry eather. Military tactics evolve like every thing else.

Changleen said:
Basically both sides did what they thought was the most effecient method of fighting for their situation and political needs. However we must remember that even using their primative unguided rockets, Hezbollahs ratio of soldier vs. civilian deaths was almost 10x better, and numerically 10x smaller than the mighty advanced Israeli army. That is a horribly disproportionate response on behalf of Israel. I think most of the world can see that very plainly, and the Arab world in particular has now been polarised beyond anything we've seen in recent history against the US and Israel - they see clearly that whatever Washington says about democracy and freedom means nothing in practice. It is no wonder the US is in the situation it has found itself in. This was highly predictable, but the US just let it happen anyway. Be sure to thank you leaders for the generations of latent, avoidable hatred you have caused for yourselves across a good 1/3 of the globe.
Word to the MF!
 

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
14,920
2,887
Pōneke
Just read a thing from the Lebanese government that estimates around 200,000 people have had their houses destroyed by Israel. On top of that 600 KM of roads, 250 bridges, hundreds of factories, shops and other premises have been destroyed.

2 soldiers.
 

ALEXIS_DH

Tirelessly Awesome
Jan 30, 2003
6,261
881
Lima, Peru, Peru
Changleen said:
Just read a thing from the Lebanese government that estimates around 200,000 people have had their houses destroyed by Israel. On top of that 600 KM of roads, 250 bridges, hundreds of factories, shops and other premises have been destroyed.

2 soldiers.
dont be naive. you perfectly know its not about the 2 soldiers.
you have the roughly 1000 rockets launched to israel before the 2 soldiers.

and lastly. dont like the price? dont buy problems then.

this was just one iteration on a series of repeated chicken games.
i honesly believe israel shouldnt have stopped, and they shouldnt have risked their soldiers either.
do you think hezbollah will be so easily tempted to play the chicken game next time?

Well, it is my personal opinion that the scale and methods used in 'retaliation' for the supposed kidnapping (although as you may have seen there are real doubts about this) were totally illegal, immoral and disproportionate. (1300+ civilian lives and a massive oil spill in a failed attempt to supposedly have just 2 soldiers released? Seriously?) So I'd say Israel were totally out of line to be trying to kill millitants in civiliain areas. They were totally out of line to be in Lebanon in the first place.
israel wasnt out of line in lebanon.
it wasnt actually israel idea to try to kill militants in civilian areas. hezbollah made that call. if anything, israel was pressed to attack back.
 

DaveW

Space Monkey
Jul 2, 2001
11,751
3,242
The bunker at parliament
ALEXIS_DH said:
dont be naive. you perfectly know its not about the 2 soldiers.
That was the excuse used so it is perfectly valid for him to state that.

ALEXIS_DH said:
you have the roughly 1000 rockets launched to israel before the 2 soldiers.
Wrong
The Rockets came AFTER a week of Israeli bombing of civilians..... or are you talking of events prior to this year?
If so I consider that they were justifyed as a result of Israels invasion and the war crimes commited whilst there.

ALEXIS_DH said:
and lastly. dont like the price? dont buy problems then.
Looks to me like the Israeli's brought a problem they really don't like the price of.....They never made it more than 10 miles past the border.

ALEXIS_DH said:
do you think hezbollah will be so easily tempted to play the chicken game next time?
Hezbollah have come out of this stronger than ever.... Israels actions have strengthened their organisation, generated vast amounts of support and increased it's political power/influence. Hardly a deterant.

ALEXIS_DH said:
israel wasnt out of line in lebanon.
They were as out of line as shining path or pol pot.
 

spincrazy

I love to climb
Jul 19, 2001
1,529
0
Brooklyn
Stir stir stir

Rules of political correctness

> Rule # 1
>In the Middle East, it is always the Arabs that attack first, and it's
>always Israel who defends itself. This is called "Retaliation".
>
>Rule # 2
>The Arabs, whether Palestinians or Lebanese, are not allowed to kill
>Israelis. This is called "Terrorism".
> Rule # 3
>Israel has the right to kill Arab civilians, this is called "Self-Defense",
>or these days "Collateral Damage".
> Rule # 4
>When Israel kills too many civilians, the Western world calls for
>restraint. This is called the "Reaction of the International Community".
> Rule # 5
>Palestinians and Lebanese do not have the right to capture Israeli
>military, not even a limited number, not even 1 or 2. This is called
>"Kidnapping".
> Rule # 6
>Israel has the right to capture as many Palestinians as they want
>(Palestinians: around 10,000 to date, 300 of which are children, Lebanese:
>1000s to date, being held without trial). There is no limit; there is no
>need for proof of guilt or trial. This is called "War on Terrorism".
> Rule # 7
>When you say "Hezbollah", always be sure to add "supported by Syria and
>Iran". this is called: "Axis of Evil".
> Rule # 8
>When you say "Israel", never say "supported by the USA, the UK and other
>European countries", for people (God forbid) might believe this is not an
>equal conflict. This is called "Helping our Friends".
> Rule # 9
>When it comes to Israel, don't mention the words "occupied territories",
>"UN resolutions", "Geneva conventions". This could distress the audience
>and is called "Anti-Semitism".
> Rule # 10
>Israelis speak better English than Arabs. This is why we let them speak out
>as much as possible, so that they can explain rules. 1 through 9. This is
>called "Neutral Journalism".
>Rule # 11
>If you don't agree with these rules or if you favor the Arab side over the
>Israeli side, you must be a very dangerous anti-Semite.
 

Toshi

butthole powerwashing evangelist
Oct 23, 2001
40,255
9,129
that's quite apropos. :thumb: i can only imagine what the atmosphere is like in the upper east side (of manhattan) these days.

<-- went to dalton way back when
 

rockwool

Turbo Monkey
Apr 19, 2004
2,658
0
Filastin
Kevin said:
Ouuff, what a tremendous unloading of righteous facts that news woman got slaped in her face. The fattest of mushroom trips couldn't have given a clearer sight in just 9 minutes...
She finishes of bitterly after being slapped by saying "I have to say that some people might find it offensive when more families are morning their dead..." and not even giving a thought to the about 40? times greater loss in civilian lives on the Lebanese side.
Journalistic objectivness in the eyes of media conglomerate Rupert Murdoch. :rofl:

"You can fool some people some times, but you can't fool all the people all the time, and now you see the light, you stand up for your rights" -The Prophet

Thanks for posting Kevin! :trophy_br
 

jaydee

Monkey
Jul 5, 2001
794
0
Victoria BC
This debate certainly brings about in people an inability to think clearly. You are labelled an anti-Semite or a terrorist sympathizer, no middle ground. I don't think either side is in the right, and the causes of this current conflict are not recent nor simple, so limiting the discussion to the "2 soldiers" situation is naive and self-serving. If you are determined to fight a war, there is not much point in doing it in a way that increases your losses. So the Hizbollah set up in populated areas and then quickly disappear because they aren't strong enough to fight conventional battles, and then the Israelis bomb the s**t out of the area rather than walk into ambushes with infantry when they can fight safely at a distance? Who is the less honorable in that scenario? Damned if I can tell. Israelis don't set off bombs in buses and restaurants full of tourists, but they do kill a lot of innocent civilians in their "surgical" strikes. Both sides are glad to fight to the last drop of Lebanese blood. And Changleen, the people used by the Hizbollah as shields are no more their "friends and families" than I am. They are not fighting "for" Lebanon, they are fighting "in" Lebanon. I admit I tend to have more understanding for the Jewish position, as their neighbors have vowed to wipe Israel from the earth, which is at least mildly provocational. But I kind of wish both sides would destroy each other to the last man and be done with the whole thing.
 

black noise

Turbo Monkey
Dec 31, 2004
1,032
0
Santa Cruz
IMO both Israel and Hizbollah are at fault but I'm disgusted with our media. They are so completely one-sided it's horrible. The idea that Hizbollah are terrorists and Israel is a noble country defending itself is absolute bullsh!t, the Israeli government is the biggest terrorist organization in the area, if you don't see their barely-justified assault on Beiruit and other cities as terrorism you're an idiot.
 

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
14,920
2,887
Pōneke
ALEXIS_DH said:
dont be naive. you perfectly know its not about the 2 soldiers.
No, it's about empire and hegemonism. But it must be lied about for justification. A sure sign it is highly moral.
 

rockwool

Turbo Monkey
Apr 19, 2004
2,658
0
Filastin
jaydee said:
This debate certainly brings about in people an inability to think clearly. You are labelled an anti-Semite or a terrorist sympathizer, no middle ground. I don't think either side is in the right, and the causes of this current conflict are not recent nor simple, so limiting the discussion to the "2 soldiers" situation is naive and self-serving. If you are determined to fight a war, there is not much point in doing it in a way that increases your losses. So the Hizbollah set up in populated areas and then quickly disappear because they aren't strong enough to fight conventional battles, and then the Israelis bomb the s**t out of the area rather than walk into ambushes with infantry when they can fight safely at a distance? Who
is the less honorable in that scenario? Damned if I can tell. Israelis don't set off bombs in buses and restaurants full of tourists, but they do kill a lot of innocent civilians in their "surgical" strikes. Both sides are glad to fight to the last drop of Lebanese blood. And Changleen, the people used by the Hizbollah as shields are no more their "friends and families" than I am. They are not fighting "for" Lebanon, they are fighting "in" Lebanon. I admit I tend to have more understanding for the Jewish position, as their neighbors have vowed to wipe Israel from the earth, which is at least mildly provocational. But I kind of wish both sides would destroy each other to the last man and be done with the whole thing.
Neither side is right in the way that both sides are targeting civilians, and in some cases, like this one, it is pretty easy to say "that is simply wrong so don't do it" or to say that one side is responsible of wrong doing more often and of greater magintude.

Even if we get emotionally involved there are a few facts that are so clear that they speak for them selves. So which are these facts?

*How this war started; It was not as a retaliation for an assault and kidnaping of Israeli soldiers on Israeli soil. Israel sent in a group to Lebanon for a mission. A clear provocation and act of agression.
By this Israel has lost the casus belli they claim to have. Lebanon/Hizbollah have on the other hand allways had a casus belli on the Israelis, since their withdrawal in 2000, because of the ~1000? Lebanese that were arrested illegaly during an illegal occupation and jailed untrialed.

*Israel started bombing Lebanese civilians in masses. And by that some have argued that it is OK to bomb Israeli civilians when looking at how the allies answered the nazis terror bombing of London. Personaly I find it disgraceful, allways wrong and killing 2 is worse than killing 1. Therefore Israel is to be critisezed more for killing 30 times the amount of civilians than Hizbollah has.

*Bombing of civilian areas. It is not the first time a modern wa is fought within city limits aswell. If you can't make out what is civilian and what is a military target, you are not allowed to fire. Israeli claims that Hizballah is using "civilian shields" is not to be taken seriously with that big of a bs record that they have. Just look at this conflict alone. What of all things they have said have been true? :clue:

*Bombing of UN observers (6 dead). The one that took 4 of them out was purposeful to get any observers out of the region so that their war crimes will not be as easily noted.

*Bombing of infrastructure. Which targets are allowed and to what extent? Harming nature with that oil spill is not allowed; Powerstations are for the civilian population and have nothing with Hizbollahs war machine to do; Factories have been bombed that I don't know if they are manufacturing military equipment;

It is clear that Israeli bombing is out of proportion, and that the massive bombardment of roads and all bridges show that the whole operation is about putting Lebanon out of battle condition, to disable Lebanese/Hizbollah army troop movements, in what seems to be planed, a war with Syria and Iran.

As George Galloway said; Hizbollah is a part of Lebanon in fact they are the whole south of Lebanon so they are fighting for it and since 90% of all Lebanese are supporting Hizbollah in this they have an overwhelming backup from the whole county.

It is provocational to vowe to wipe your neighbours out of the earth but it is total wishful thinking. Look at who's been doing the actual wiping since day1. How do you think Israels neighbours feel like then when they are the ones being wiped? Of course it is going to lead to an upward spiral of violence and you might just get your wish fulfilled.
 

Bullitrider

Monkey
Apr 17, 2004
577
0
Seattle
I enjoy seeing the spins too. Everyone says the Terrorist are despicable because of their guerilla tactics. How do you think we fought the British throughout most of the revolution?
 

rockwool

Turbo Monkey
Apr 19, 2004
2,658
0
Filastin
Kevin said:
Your welcome, I think the interview is pretty typical for whats going on in the world right now.
Were allready living in "1984".
Ohh defenetly, Orwell probably thought he did that in the 40's too and what he wrote was just a spiced futuristic tweek of the society he was living in back then.


You tell'em Bullitrider!


EDIT: George Galloway on Hizbollah:


EDIT 2: Israeli activist speaks on present Israel-Lebanon conflict. Very insightful and also touches the palestinian conflict.
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
Bullitrider said:
I enjoy seeing the spins too. Everyone says the Terrorist are despicable because of their guerilla tactics. How do you think we fought the British throughout most of the revolution?
Are you comparing God Fearing American Patriots to stupid smelly raghead camel jockeys?

You got some nerve there boy. Better watch it, or N8'll make you squeal.
 

ALEXIS_DH

Tirelessly Awesome
Jan 30, 2003
6,261
881
Lima, Peru, Peru
Changleen said:
Until what point?
So you're talking about carpet bombing or WMD?
i&#180;d say, probably the 1st.

even at equal damage, the latter is psychologically and PR way more expensive.

on the reasons on why this isnt about 2 soldiers.
there has been many many rockets launched at israel from lebanon in the last 5 years. you can check it yourself, google "rocket israel lebanon" for files older than 2005 and you&#180;ll see a lot of news about that.
reducing the actions of the last month to the "2 soldiers" is way to simplistic to hold much sense. of course, the issue with the 2 soldiers is the spark in the dry field.

yes, you can argue there is a bit of hegemony in there.
but demonstrations of hegemony arent necesarilly evil. they can bring peace. i believe peace from the most part come from the incentive that peace > war. fear is a very powerful incentive.
i dont believe nations and terrorists groups behave on moral systems besides case utitarianism. nor do i expect them to either.
its all part of a (IMO) valid strategy, when these people are playing the same game over and over.

for example, if you employ 30 people, and one of them slacks off in plain view. you have to fire him. otherwise, the other 29 will start slacking off if you show signs of complacency. interpret the analogy.
sad, but anything short of that is a worse strategy than the firing.
 

Old Man G Funk

Choir Boy
Nov 21, 2005
2,864
0
In a handbasket
ALEXIS_DH said:
i´d say, probably the 1st.
Carpet bombing random civilians doesn't decrease the death toll, it only increases it. Add to that the fact that more people get pissed off and want to attack back and it really leads to an escalation.
for example, if you employ 30 people, and one of them slacks off in plain view. you have to fire him. otherwise, the other 29 will start slacking off if you show signs of complacency. interpret the analogy.
sad, but anything short of that is a worse strategy than the firing.
I'm sorry but your analogy doesn't hold to your strategy. Your strategy is that you threaten to fire Persons A, B, and C if Person X doesn't start picking up the slack. Instead of making Person X stop slacking, what you do is either show X that you aren't serious (when you don't actually fire A, B, and C) or you create resentment in all the employees who now see you as a threat that needs to be dealt with. Most likely, in a corporate scenario they will go you your boss. In a war scenario, they would try to destroy you.
 

ALEXIS_DH

Tirelessly Awesome
Jan 30, 2003
6,261
881
Lima, Peru, Peru
Old Man G Funk said:
Carpet bombing random civilians doesn't decrease the death toll, it only increases it. Add to that the fact that more people get pissed off and want to attack back and it really leads to an escalation.
my hope is there would be enough fear that escalation will not ensue.
thats how almost every war ended.
violence cant create increasing violence forever. unless you keep the violence at a low sustainable level.
thus only realistic way to break the cycle is to make violence unsustainable. (unless you can talk people out of it, but thats pretty dreamy for the middle east)

I'm sorry but your analogy doesn't hold to your strategy. Your strategy is that you threaten to fire Persons A, B, and C if Person X doesn't start picking up the slack. Instead of making Person X stop slacking, what you do is either show X that you aren't serious (when you don't actually fire A, B, and C) or you create resentment in all the employees who now see you as a threat that needs to be dealt with. Most likely, in a corporate scenario they will go you your boss. In a war scenario, they would try to destroy you.
i´ve just read a book that goes on for a few pages discussing that exact scenario.

my analogy was refered to the fact that there are a lot of mini-wars going on, with a lot of groups trying to attack israel. (many employees slacking), thus israel should deal harshly with whoever slacks first as to make a precedent israel wont tolerate slacking.
anything but not firing the employee, will demonstrate there arent consecuences to slacking, thus the incentive to slack becomes greater than the incentive not to.
 

Old Man G Funk

Choir Boy
Nov 21, 2005
2,864
0
In a handbasket
ALEXIS_DH said:
my hope is there would be enough fear that escalation will not ensue.
thats how almost every war ended.
violence cant create increasing violence forever. unless you keep the violence at a low sustainable level.
thus only realistic way to break the cycle is to make violence unsustainable. (unless you can talk people out of it, but thats pretty dreamy for the middle east)
Well, Israel carpet bombed Lebanon. Did it work? You tell me.

Besides, I thought you only advocated threatening. Now, you've moved on to actually killing civilians as a show of force?
i´ve just read a book that goes on for a few pages discussing that exact scenario.

my analogy was refered to the fact that there are a lot of mini-wars going on, with a lot of groups trying to attack israel. (many employees slacking), thus israel should deal harshly with whoever slacks first as to make a precedent israel wont tolerate slacking.
anything but not firing the employee, will demonstrate there arent consecuences to slacking, thus the incentive to slack becomes greater than the incentive not to.
But, that's still not your strategy. Your strategy is to threaten innocent people to try and make them live in fear. When your bluff is called, they will resent you and no violence will stop (actually it will probably increase). Of course, maybe you won't be bluffing, in which case you would not fire the first slacking employee, but his neighbor, his neighbor's wife, some random guy on the street, and a random bus driver. Meanwhile the slacking employee is free to go on slacking, but now can go and console his neighbor's children and recruit them to his cause against their common enemy....you.
 

SDH

I'm normal
Oct 2, 2001
374
0
Northern Va.
Old Man G Funk said:
But, that's still not your strategy. Your strategy is to threaten innocent people to try and make them live in fear. When your bluff is called, they will resent you and no violence will stop (actually it will probably increase). Of course, maybe you won't be bluffing, in which case you would not fire the first slacking employee, but his neighbor, his neighbor's wife, some random guy on the street, and a random bus driver. Meanwhile the slacking employee is free to go on slacking, but now can go and console his neighbor's children and recruit them to his cause against their common enemy....you.
If this true...........
Explain the outcome of WWII and how that war was won.
 

SDH

I'm normal
Oct 2, 2001
374
0
Northern Va.
Old Man G Funk said:
Carpet bombing random civilians doesn't decrease the death toll, it only increases it. Add to that the fact that more people get pissed off and want to attack back and it really leads to an escalation.
Then explain the victory over Japan?