Well there's a phrase (and a word) I've never heard before!
May have to enter that into the phraze database
edit: yes, it does actually describe the UCI as far as I know...
Les Gets 2022 - World Champs!
- Thread starter slyfink
- Start date
Well there's a phrase (and a word) I've never heard before!
May have to enter that into the phraze database
edit: yes, it does actually describe the UCI as far as I know...
No one is dumping on some regional talent who had a good day. We're talking about world-beaters who are putting in superlative performances by any metrics.
I've been following cycling across most disciplines for 30 years. For 10 of those years I didn't question anything, for 5 of those years I thought it was dirty Euros robbing honest Yanks of glory, and for the past 15 years I've acknowledged that nearly everyone at the top, and especially those consistently at the top for many years, are on programs of varying degrees of sophistication.
I never believed in miracles, now I don't even believe in lucky wins. There's too much evidence to the contrary.
Common sense? Do you follow cycling? Or tennis? Or distance running? Or sprinting?
More power to you if you want to believe in fairy tales. I didn't like having my bubble burst, either.
Clearly not enough evidence for WADA or the IOC apparently. But they don't have the indepth resources that we do
*edit* to be fair, I'm not saying sports are clean. I'm just erring on the side of not smearing people. I think its gutless and disgusting to do so and cheapens the absolutely incredible efforts and sacrifices pro athletes make. Its too easy these days to say "blah blah PEDs, when there's still an incredible amount of work required.
You could give me every PED known to man and it wouldn't undo the damage done by my inability to walk past a beer or bakery.
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I agree we shouldn't be smearing athletes/sports people as drug cheats without solid evidence.
But I'm not sure claiming the entire pro peleton use PEDs does take away from the amount of effort and sacrifice they put in. Infact possibly quite the opposite when you take risk into account.
But I'm not sure claiming the entire pro peleton use PEDs does take away from the amount of effort and sacrifice they put in. Infact possibly quite the opposite when you take risk into account.
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I get your points, but this is pretty much settled ground. WADA and the IOC anti-doping wing (in particular, in the case of the IOC) have tiny budgets and very little incentive to catch cheats. The governing bodies themselves even less so. And in cases where an idealistic firebrand, such as Travis Tygart with USADA, really want to reduce PED use, they're met with stonewalling, relatively few resources, and doping programs that can be quite sophisticated. The IOC is a hoot, by the way, and operates more as a funnel for bribes than an athletics organization.
Keep on living the dream - the industry needs it. Like we've heard for a couple of decades now, not testing positive is more of an intelligence test than anything else.
More power to you, and I mean that sincerely.
If you want to step into the world of skepticism, though, watch Icarus. Or read any of the books or blogs by ex-pro cyclists from the past 10 years. Or, visit the Clinic on the CyclingNews forums, or swimswam, or slowtwitch, or tennishasadopingproblem. There are great debates on those forums where people debate the numbers and the subjective, and some of the posters (some of whom have advanced degrees in the sports sciences) do a great job breaking down the power numbers to separate the plausible from the implausible. They do the math, as we say these days.
I still like cycling, and I still have riders I root for. I just don't pretend the endurance side of the sport is much different from the WWE. All we're missing are great intro sequences for the riders.
I wish all of this wasn't the case. But in a sport where 80% of the pay goes to the top 20% of the talent and the rest of the pack barely gets by, the incentive to use PEDs is enhanced.
Edit: I used "great" a lot in this post and I'm not editing it, which is great.
Edit 2: I can't believe I'm having to argue in 2022 that top cyclists use PEDs. I feel like I took the bait.
Oh cmon, I've seen Icarus and read all the articles. It's hardly uncommon knowledge.
I'm not arguing they're all clean, I'm just saying saying that NONE are is a bit ruthless. Especially in MTB when things like "being able to ride a bike" can contribute to your result as much as "watts per kg" or "FTP" or "funding to bribe officials". Outliers do exists that can sneak through and I genuinely feel bad for the guys without chemistry sets that have their results diminished by people who say ALL pro riders are on the gear.
Half the field can't afford proper spare parts, let alone the help of Dr Ferrari. The high profile guys might have the cash and incentive, but there's literally privateers still making the top 10 in some disciplines.
I applaud this stance and find it great.
Very valid points, and thanks for the measured reply. I think the mix of fitness and bike handlings skills can reduce the effectiveness (or even perceived efficacy) of drugs, to some degree.
Now I'll get back to my other hill to die on, which is the thread where I'm arguing that clipless pedals from 1990 are superior to anything released since.
Ha, More than you would ever know. Do you follow Downhill? I only asked how you would know and didn’t side with either. I do like how you cite Icarus. @norbar at least knows someone at Wada.
Don’t worry about my bubble. I‘d have to tell you what it is first.
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Thanks bro! I appreciate it!
Regarding skepticism…. I’m good. That shit will give you an expertise in any and all situations with zero info. I’ll leave that philosophy to you.
Back to DH Worlds…. You guys should really make the trip next year!
I ran into lots of people but the standout was CVD. Any of you guys remember him? I think he used to post here way back? We used to do shuttle laps in Durango on Ironhorse/Log Chutes in college. I had meetings the next day so I lent him my bike and helmet and he and my wife did some runs on the steel diy bikes. So good to see old bike friends.
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Wow,that went Heavy regarding doping. My favorite sports I Love. Swimming,Bike’s in any Way,FootBall(soccer),MotorCross,Ralley,BaseBall,PingPong,Badminton,Skiing,including those gun toten cats,Track and Field,Boxing,and I’m too tired to think of more for you.
Most of them have a dope problem. I have been upset about this for a Long Time. How to come to Terms with it? What is the answer for this problem? How,even with the Money and Fame,can you look in the mirror and be content with you’re soul? I don’t have a answer? I know Avy,let’s just have a cheater class,and a pure class. Even that would not work,cause the cheaters would cheat to win in the clean class. I’m tired,more later.
Avy
Most of them have a dope problem. I have been upset about this for a Long Time. How to come to Terms with it? What is the answer for this problem? How,even with the Money and Fame,can you look in the mirror and be content with you’re soul? I don’t have a answer? I know Avy,let’s just have a cheater class,and a pure class. Even that would not work,cause the cheaters would cheat to win in the clean class. I’m tired,more later.
Avy
I found an old pic of Chris I took on the top of Ironhorse which later became Log Chutes? @Redwood Mulch Chucker probably rides there occasionally? This was maybe around 1998?
That’s an SC Bulit with a Boxxer on Rhinolites and Hayes brakes, haha.
That’s an SC Bulit with a Boxxer on Rhinolites and Hayes brakes, haha.
I was talking about XC and road. World-class XC riders are on bread and water? And Pidcock, who I referenced specifically? It's 2022, man. No one believes that. Not even you.
The US downhill guys seem pretty into Jesus and RynoPower, which doesn't make them dopers, but does make them dopes (especially the latter).
And I'm not touching your bubble.
Edit: Oh, in the industry. My condolences. I take it all back and hope you recover soon.
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Unrelated to racing, but after seeing Eddie Masters bike paintjob and that it was related to his favourite film, wife and I watched it last week.
Nice, looks like a big ol' 38t or 40t ring under those MRP plates.
You'll be happy to know the lower part of that trail is still destroying tires and rims to this day...
This is true. (Osama) Bin Wooker is a good dude who rides fast, pops scary-looking manuals on Scott e-bikes, and also builds his own frames.
Back on topic, at around 00:16:35 of Downtime's post world champs episode Neko explained his tire choices. He ran an Assegai with cut intermediate knobs which he still prefers over the DHF because the former is a bit more aggressive and he could lean it a bit more vs the latter which is more square. He did concede that the DHF could have been good as well in Les Gets but went with what was familiar. DHR 2 in the back per usual. In one of the previous episodes he mentioned he had access to a 2.5 DHR 2 from Maxxis that he uses in the front.
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While Amphetamine Aaron is going a bit overboard with "everyone is on gear and your grandma too" you don't need to rich to be on gear. Dr. Ferrari or whatever he was called was expensive because he gave you max results without being caught but getting on gear is not that expensive. Don't get me wrong it's costs a fair bit of money but if you are determined you can get it on a budget. I unfortunately have one stupid friend who took epo (not really a ranked athlete so even dumber).
As for XC - I have talked to someone in the sport who claims the current result in XC are impossible without gear but I have no idea if that's bitterness or good info. Generally I get the overall sentiment Aaron is trying to push which is "more people are on gear than people are willing to accept" but the thing is that's not provable since Wada is underfunded and doesn't have the tools to chase people.
This happens for a reason. There is really no incentive to kill peds in sports but they also don't want the PR nightmare of allowing them so the grey zone is what it is.Clearance Kennedy (he's a weightlifter) has written and spoke in length about the topic and he is generally suggesting we should not really police doping. Not sure I agree but he has some good arguments.
It's a difficult topic and it's hard to throw accusations but I agree that we kind of want to pretend like it's not happening in endurance sports as much as it does because we like those people (took me a long time since for years I've been spending my summers in Pantanis birthplace). So "everyone is on gear" is probably a stretch. Even Lance wasn't at first. Instead of complaining who is on it we should maybe campaign to do something about it. Current Wada rules make it really useless. You can literally lie to Wada 2 times before getting booted.
Next year? I thought Champery is 2024? Or are the unannounced tracks announced now? Since I'm trying to plan at least 1 visit next year with my GF and if anything in PDS is on the table that's where I'm going. Fort William is nice but i'd rather be in a place where I have other choices than rain or midges
if we allow men to ruin womens competitions by allowing them to compete, why not doping too? not much difference imho
Lets not open this can of worms here. The topic of defining gender in sports has been controversial even before we started talking about trans athletes as some women were banned for being born too "manly". Even pre. Trans athlete argument it's very hard to set good guidelines what's naturally ocuring in a female body and what possibly may be doping.
I will gladly talk about this in another topic as not to derail this one. Especially since it's a sensitive topic as it partakes to a marginalized and villified group of people.
As for doping - some people make arguments this would not ruin the sports and current system actually only means richer athletes get to dope because they can afford to avoid tests and to pay "specialists"
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Doping it's even relative to the country/sports federation dictating the regulations. If I recall correctly, some of the US olympic basketball team members couldn't pass a OIC test but they were regularly on other stuff (mostly painkillers) the USDA allowed domestically.
That said, the whole "supermen" argument in regards of the classic road tour circuit is bollocks. Those guys might have an evolutionary advantage, but hauling 200+ km stages daily for 15 days at your top power isn't done without some juice.
That said, the whole "supermen" argument in regards of the classic road tour circuit is bollocks. Those guys might have an evolutionary advantage, but hauling 200+ km stages daily for 15 days at your top power isn't done without some juice.
I remember some decent YT channel interviewed some specialists showing studies multi stage road racing actually has huge negative effects on your body.
I was going to let it go as the topic died and went elsewhere. I say Mr.Kennedy is right. What we have now in All levels is a joke. It is not Fair to those with Honor. It is behind the 8 Ball,playing catch-up years later,or just not done right.
We do All pretend,or don’t care if Our Favorite is doping. At least we can put the matter to bed. If they want to dope,it’s their body and choice. It is in no way Fair currently for those that do not cheat,and it only has gotten worse. So,some will bow out given the choice,but most will continue to Dope chasing Fame and Money.
Amery is serious with his Trainer/Training,so are Most of them. Since he came back from that injury,he is Yoked up. I mean Big in a Short time With a injury. I don’t know if he is? It is first time I have even thought about doping in DH though. There is All type of doping I know,more than building bulk. Just sharing a thought.
Avy
Thanks for the reply. Also, I appreciate the nickname. And please send me any drugs for "testing", thanks. I need all the help I can get and then some these days.
I agree with everything you've said here. Everyone doping? Nope. Those who are competitive? Yup.
I know good guys (and gals!) who took PEDs. I also know at least one national-level talent (in this case on the road) who didn't, and it ended their career full-stop. This was around the turn of the 2000s, though, and maybe the domestic racing scene is different now. Back then, the Tom Danielsons got rides, and the Walker Fergusons just walked away from the sport.
Some say Armstrong was on a program (or, at least getting some PED assistance) when he was cleaning house against the best pros in triathlon when he was a teenager. The people who were leading him around in those days weren't squeaky clean by any stretch. I wouldn't trust anything that Armstrong told the public, and his testimony to USADA was clearly not the whole story.
When was the last time a gravity racer was busted for a legit PED? Was it Wade Boots? Karim Amour? Excusing the Graves/Rude farce, I suppose.
No, I meant Les Gets for a WC race.
I don't think it's "honor". For athletes sports is their job so in those sports where theoretically you can't compete with PEDs honor has nothing to do with it. You want to keep your job or you start doing something else.
The real problem is the double standard here. Peds are not enforced as well as they should be. The sports organizations benefit from them being in the grey zone. They get athletes performance growth with plausible deniability.
As for Amaury - he was relatively big pre injury. He had a lot of time to train given the covid stuff. It wasn't a short time and you can train while injured you just focus on training around the injury.
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Weirdly not in the official announcement where it's still "France TBA" but I guess it's just google serving me outdated info. As long as my GF's calendar allows I'm there. Might try to convince a few riding buddies to come for riding if she can't come with me for spectating.
No Brother,yoked up is thicker,which is exactly what I meant. He in no way was leaner when he came back. I thought it was a shoulder injury? Or Back? So when Norbar sais you can ”train” while injured,sure you can,just not that area. His Neck,Shoulder and Arms were thicker to me.
Westy,or was it toodles that would agree with me. I am not the only one who noticed this.
Avy
He was already bigg AF in 2021 so depends on which injury you are talking about. His 2021 was more about kidneys and other internal soft stuff. The big injury was 2020 so it wasn't really fast as we are in the 2nd part of 2022. It's 2 years and he was never a skinny boy. His injury was some weird back thing I don't know and collar bone. With collar bones injuries you can be back to training in 2 weeks.