[gemini2k]

(although I still think the ultimate section for a 4X track would be a long straight with big flowy jumps with rough sections/rock gardens between doubles)

Almost like this guy knows a thing or 2 about racing and 4x . I think he nailed it right on the head. Big huge jumps, and a little bit of rocky gnar thrown in. Only a few turns. About the course being huge. It doesn't have to be big for 4x. People would MUCH rather watch a fast intense short race than a boring as sin long flat slow race. Hell make it a fall-line course, who cares. Also it doesn't matter if that's more or less "fun" for the riders. Pro WC 4x races should be fun for the spectator, not necessarily the racers.

 

[Al C. Oholic]

don't we talking the coverage of a 4x race?

yes, we do have are can be talked of about 4x.

 

[kidwoo]

1 - Profro, seriously....did you just suggest that? That would be the best way to wipe out most of the feild by the first round, im trying to think of a better way to describe what you are suggesting, but the best I can come up with is, absurd! I do agree though that people need to think outside the box a bit more when it comes to track design.

Yeah profro!!!

Take that!!


Jared Graves agrees with ME!!!!!!!


And he's dreamy!!!!!!!!!







Hey for real though.......

4 - The speed and jump size of the Boarder/Skiiercross courses also isn't realistic for 4X, as some of the crashes that happened, if that was onto dirt and rocks, instead of snow, they would not have been getting up! But again, something a bit more along those lines would be awesome!

4x is a MOUNTAIN bike sport. You could easily run courses that big and fast. And to be honest it might cut down on the wreckless chance taking a bit and focus more on the fast and skilled riding. There's nothing more depressing that looking at a bunch of bike length long jumps on a 4x course that I could do on a skateboard without blinking. Turning the amplitude up a notch would make it more exciting in my opinion. Hell it might even get me to race a few. Can you imagine how fun a 4x race would be if were held on a course like the dream track in NZ?

But you are right about the construction problems. It would almost have to be limited to bike parks or something of the ilk that would reap benefits beyond singular events.

 

[JaredGraves]

I agree that it COULD be done, it would kick ass! but the cost involved in building a course of that magnitude with dirt, would be WAY too much, building with snow is much easier than building with dirt. And a lot of the crashes from Skiier Cross that I saw, If they were on Dirt and Rocks, would be, at best, Life threatening.....you wouldn't be walking away.

It definately is depressing though that some courses do require the skills of a 10yr old intermediate to ride, and is no doubt, a large part of what is holding 4X back. Thats where people need to take note of the Olympic Boarder/Skiier Cross course, and BMX Supercross, to help the sport reach its potential.

A big problem I have with current 4X courses is slow speed wide turns, which does nothing but encourage T-Bone passes and take outs. When a rider passes on a turn like these,theres nothing "racing" or "creative" about it, its usually desperate, and dirty. So some more high speed turns would be awesome. People are far less willing to try crazy passes on higher speed sections, unless they have the skills to pull it off cleanly.

After reading this thread, I have been watching the Olympic events again and again. while there were some questionable passes made (all of which were in corners, once again backing up my arguments from previous threads, on why courses shouldnt encourage passing to be mostly done in turns) most passes were pulled because the rider behind carried better corner speed than the person in front, and was then able to use that extra speed to pass down the next straight.
THATS what we need more of!

 

[big-ted]

building with snow is much easier than building with dirt.

Building with plywood, scaffolding, and a thin layer of snow is even easier.



Sorry. I have nothing constructive or remotely positive to add to this thread.

 

[BrayDownhill]

After reading this thread, I have been watching the Olympic events again and again. while there were some questionable passes made (all of which were in corners, once again backing up my arguments from previous threads, on why courses shouldnt encourage passing to be mostly done in turns) most passes were pulled because the rider behind carried better corner speed than the person in front, and was then able to use that extra speed to pass down the next straight.
THATS what we need more of!

Jared thanks for the input into this, having not ridden or raced 4x in YEARS (no scene in Ireland anymore) I not well versed in all things 4x.

At the highest levels in WC 4x racing would the riders speed not be so equally matched on say a large groomed berm after and before a large groomed (but comfortable for WC rider skill level) jump?

Similar speed to what there would be on an Olympics style track on a bike on dirt can mean huge crashes and one of the biggest differences I would see between the ski v bike argument from watching the Olympic track was that the skiiers were messing up some of the jumps and were getting passed, either on the rest of the straight or in the corner. However a similar wobble or flat landing or whatever mistake on a bike would spell a hell of a lot more trouble for the rider.

Brock

 

[buckoW]

What kinds of jumps and features on straights would promote passing more that the corners? Seems like more of a bmx trails style rhythm section with lippy jumps would work well but it seems like the majority of 4x racers (the women included) would not be stoked to see lippy jumps. I get the impression that everyone is so critical these days that it is very challenging to make everyone happy.

Jared, what would you suggest for a venue like Champery with a short start straight with no way of making it longer due to land limitations. Are there any features that you think could work well if the first straight is short?

 

[profro]

Anywho, as I said I was just offering up something to level the field. Well, not literally level the field. Just inject some different skillsets and strategy. Somehow skiers in Super G can run a course at Olympic speeds sight unseen and not level the the entire field. Somehow hare scramble racers can absolutely pin a two hour race sight unseen and not level the field. Think about it. Anyway, 4x seems to be a bit of a dead sport and it needs something. I admit I would watch skier cross again before I'd watch a 4x race and I don't even ski.

 

[sirbikealot]

Anyone know if there are skicross specific athletes? or is this like a sideshow thing? Does DelBosco make a living from ski-cross?

This is pure curiosity, no hatin'

thanks

yes he makes a livin, he's got plenty of sponsors (full ride from people like oakley) and the Cdn govt helps out too

plus i know he gets cash for these events (just won skier x gold at X games)
http://www.oakley.com/sports/ski/posts/1858

funny his dad just emailed me, he wants us to help him into a Lapierre 920!

 

[kidwoo]

Anywho, as I said I was just offering up something to level the field. Well, not literally level the field. Just inject some different skillsets and strategy. Somehow skiers in Super G can run a course at Olympic speeds sight unseen and not level the the entire field. Somehow hare scramble racers can absolutely pin a two hour race sight unseen and not level the field. Think about it. Anyway, 4x seems to be a bit of a dead sport and it needs something. I admit I would watch skier cross again before I'd watch a 4x race and I don't even ski.

I might catch hell for this but it's the truth: The depth of talent and training in world cup ski racing astronomically dwarfs that of the current 4x world, with maybe a small handful of exceptions.

The same could be said for resource pool in course construction too.

 

[MDJ]

Anywho, as I said I was just offering up something to level the field. Well, not literally level the field. Just inject some different skillsets and strategy. Somehow skiers in Super G can run a course at Olympic speeds sight unseen and not level the the entire field. Somehow hare scramble racers can absolutely pin a two hour race sight unseen and not level the field. Think about it. Anyway, 4x seems to be a bit of a dead sport and it needs something. I admit I would watch skier cross again before I'd watch a 4x race and I don't even ski.

Just because you think out of the box doesn't mean you're right.

DS back in the day didn't allow practice and in my mind the racing sucked because of it. Everyone was a little tenative in the flat grassy turns because you didn't know how far you could push it. Plus most tracks are newly built and need to be broken in a little and sometimes the sections may need to be re-worked a little. If something isn't built right then you can lose the flow which everyone seems to think is a good thing. Practice lets you work this out.

Also, I do believe that most Super Gs are run after downwhill and sometimes Super combined so the skiers have plenty of time on the hill. It is only the placement of gates that is really different. Races are held at the same places every year so most of the top skiers have had several years on the same course and know the details of the mountain really well. Can't say the same thing for 4x. They also don't have doubles and triples to contend with.

 

[Cant Climb]

There were just 3 50year old women in my office discussing how exciting Skier Cross was.....the discussion evolved after they were talking about figure skating.

Will this ever happen for 4X....?.....doubt it....

 

[JaredGraves]

Profro, Once again I agree that we need to think outside the square, but comparing 4X to super G, isn't really fair. Super G is kind of like a twisting downhill fire road, theres no rocks, man made jumps, or really any obstacles. If DH MTB races were held down twsting, open fireroads, we could race on them blind too, hell, that would be fun! But for 4X, it wouldnt work, not a chance in hell! You say 4X is a bit of a dead sport, maybe so in America, but in most countries that have a decent MTB following, especially in Europe, which like it or not, is where the hub of MTB racing is at right now, it is getting better and better.

Everyone is on here talking about how cool the skier Cross was, maybe thats because it is all new and exciting to most of us, I always get comments when I meet people who happened to catch a 4X race on TV somewhere, and they all say how rad they think it is! At the BMX nationals I was at last month I lost count of the amount of BMXers that were talking to me about how they really wanted to get into 4X, because they think its cool.

Cant Climb..... the scenario you described has happened many times for 4X, it has more spectator appeal for the general public, than any other MTB discipline. Ive said many times, its a new sport and it just needs time to evolve and develop, which is proven by the poularity of Skiercross. Its esentially the same thing.

What Im getting at, is that 4X is already seen as something cool to people that might happen to catch the occasional race on TV, and they are the people the sport needs to attract to grow. But it can be seen as a bit boring by some people who have been heavily involved in the sport for many years, as they've seen it all before, and thats where tracks need to evolve and get better, to get people within the sport pumped on it to ensure its growth of participation.

 

[JaredGraves]

I just caught Stik's post back on page 1, and I too would like to know if SkiierCross is seen as something that everyone within the skiing crowd, is pumped on, or if it is just a secondary event to the Downhill.

 

[profro]

You do bring up a awsome point. I think the best 4x I watched in recent memory was the Vigo course with the tricky rock section. That looked to have good racing and was hella entertaining to watch. Maybe more technical mtb specific features would help.

Edit: not knocking your stripes. It's an accomplishment I can't even dream of. I'm speaking of the reasons I don't race 4x anymore.

 

[iandude94]

I just caught Stik's post back on page 1, and I too would like to know if SkiierCross is seen as something that everyone within the skiing crowd, is pumped on, or if it is just a secondary event to the Downhill.

I think its secondary to downhill. If you try and talk to some average person about downhill skiing all they talk about is the crashes, not about how some guy faster in the first half but got slower in the second half. Also its more entertaining to watch 4 guys hit big jumps and huge berms at the same time then to watch 1 guy fly down a track trying to stay on the ground.

 

[kidwoo]

I just caught Stik's post back on page 1, and I too would like to know if SkiierCross is seen as something that everyone within the skiing crowd, is pumped on, or if it is just a secondary event to the Downhill.

Depends on who you talk to. Old school racers think it's a comical side show with no real merit.

But then again skier cross is in the x games, while dh skiing is not. So there's a valid dichotomy going on.

Living in a community with a whole host of both traditional ski racers and skier/boarder cross competitors I can tell you there's industry and public interest in both.......and money to be made.

 

[JaredGraves]

Depends on who you talk to. Old school racers think it's a comical side show with no real merit.

But then again skier cross is in the x games, while dh skiing is not. So there's a valid dichotomy going on.

Living in a community with a whole host of both traditional ski racers and skier/boarder cross competitors I can tell you there's industry and public interest in both.......and money to be made.

Thanks for that info, with the success of the Boarder/skiiercross at the olympics, even the most anti 4X person can't deny that it could be awesome if its done right.

 

[sirbikealot]

I think its secondary to downhill. If you try and talk to some average person about downhill skiing all they talk about is the crashes, not about how some guy faster in the first half but got slower in the second half. Also its more entertaining to watch 4 guys hit big jumps and huge berms at the same time then to watch 1 guy fly down a track trying to stay on the ground.

SKier X is overwhelmingly a secondary event to Alpine events (i've been distributing POC in Canada for 5 yrs and have an intimate knowledge of ski racing), in fact many of the SkierX racers are former national Alpine team racers who could not continue to make it at the top of the world cup series

all that said Skier X is amazing and there is so much to be learned by 4X racing in the MTB world.

all of that said, mountain biking is about 1/100th the revenue that skiing generates on a world scale so until mountain biking is embraced by a much larger audience there is sadly no chance mtb 4X will ever get the time, money or attention that anything ski related does (sorry like it or not its just $$)