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Lets bash/defend police again...

escapeartist

Turbo Monkey
Mar 21, 2004
1,759
0
W-S. NC
NEW YORK (AP) -- Police fired 50 rounds Saturday at a car of unarmed men leaving a bachelor party at a strip club, killing the groom on his wedding day in a shooting that drew a furious outcry from family members and community leaders.

The spray of bullets hit the car 21 times, after the vehicle rammed into an undercover officer and then an unmarked NYPD minivan twice, police said. Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly would not say if the collisions were what prompted police to open fire.

It was too early to say whether the shooting was justified, Kelly said. (Watch questions raised by groom's shooting )

Police thought one of the men in the car might have had a gun. But police found no weapons.

"Although it is too early to draw conclusions about this morning's shootings ... we know that the NYPD officers on the scene had reason to believe that an altercation involving a firearm was about to happen and were trying to stop it," Mayor Michael Bloomberg said in a statement.

Kelly said the incident stemmed from an undercover operation inside the strip club. Seven officers in plain clothes were investigating the Kalua Cabaret, and five were involved in the shooting. The gunfire also hit nearby homes and a train station, though no residents were injured.

A veteran officer fired his weapon 31 times, emptying two full magazines, Kelly said. All the officers carried 9 mm handguns.

The groom, who was driving, was identified as Sean Bell, 23. Joseph Guzman, 31, was in the front seat and was shot at least 11 times. Trent Benefield, 23, who was in the back seat, was hit three times. Both men were taken to Mary Immaculate Hospital. Guzman was listed in critical condition and Benefield was in stable condition.

Kelly said there may have been a fourth person in the car who fled the scene.

Three officers, including the officer hit by the car, were treated and released. Another detective remained hospitalized for blood pressure, Kelly said.

Abraham Kamara, 38, who lives a few blocks from the club, said he was getting ready for work at about 4 a.m. when he heard bursts of gunfire.

"First it was like four shots," he said. "And then it was like pop-pop-pop like 12 times."

A grand jury was investigating the incident. Kelly said none of the five veteran officers had ever discharged their weapons in the line of duty. He has not been able to interview the officers because the district attorney must first complete an investigation, he said.

The undercover officers were inside the club to document illicit activity, Kelly said. With one more violation the club would be shut down, Kelly said.

He said the establishment has a "chronic history of narcotics, prostitution and weapons complaints."

Sharpton joins protests

The shooting drew angry protests from family members and the Rev. Al Sharpton.

Sharpton went to the hospitals where the men were taken and afterward held news conferences. At Jamaica Hospital, the civil rights advocate stood with about two dozen members of Bell's and his fiancee's family.

"I will stand with this family," he said. "This stinks. Something about the story being told did not seem right."

Sharpton said Bell and his fiancee had two children, ages 3 years and 5 months.

At Mary Immaculate Hospital, Sharpton said he was outraged to find the survivors handcuffed to their hospital beds. He said Guzman suffered 17 wounds, though it was unclear how many were bullet wounds, and Benefield was shot three times.

"We're not anti-police ... we're anti-police brutality," he said.

The two were unshackled later Saturday and have not been charged with a crime.

Robert Porter, who identified himself as Bell's first cousin, said he was supposed to be a DJ at the wedding. He said about 250 people were invited and were flying in from all over the country. He said his cousin wasn't the type to confront police and that he was "on the straight and narrow."

"I still don't want to believe it," Porter said, "a beautiful day like this, and he was going to have a beautiful wedding, he was going to live forever with his wife and children. And this happened."

In 1999, police killed Amadou Diallo, an unarmed West African immigrant who was shot 19 times in the Bronx. The four officers in that case were acquitted of criminal charges.

And in 2003, Ousmane Zongo, 43, a native of the western African country of Burkina Faso who repaired art and musical instruments in a Manhattan warehouse, was shot to death during a police raid. Zongo was hit four times, twice in the back.
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Sounds a little sketchy to me. But, not knowing any details... I'm not gonna say anything more that that.
 

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
19,180
17
TN
A car is just as deadly a weapon as a gun and if he was ramming cops he deserved what he got. Sorry.
 

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
19,180
17
TN
Hmmm... you're leaving a strip club at 2 AM, in a bad part of town like all strip clubs are, an unmarked car and van try to block you in and stop you. What do you do?
Obviously you ram them. That's what works in the movies.
 

LordOpie

MOTHER HEN
Oct 17, 2002
21,022
3
Denver
The gunfire [from police] also hit nearby homes and a train station...
I want my police to die rather than spray bullets into areas that contain civilians.

How do they justify shooting so randomly that bullets hit houses?
 

ALEXIS_DH

Tirelessly Awesome
Jan 30, 2003
6,148
796
Lima, Peru, Peru
I want my police to die rather than spray bullets into areas that contain civilians.

How do they justify shooting so randomly that bullets hit houses?
i bet they drank a little, and had the worst blue balls related stress ever from all the grinding in the strip club.
 

JohnE

filthy rascist
May 13, 2005
13,457
1,996
Front Range, dude...
50 rounds? They need more range time, and then some sensitvity training. And 9mm? C'mon...

"I want my police to die rather than spray bullets into areas that contain civilians."

And Opie, that is a truly ignorant statement. I expect bettter from you.

"How do they justify shooting so randomly that bullets hit houses?"
That, on the other hand, is a good point, and the answer is that you cant justify it. You cant know what the Cops were going through, and why they reacted why they did. Suffice to say, had it been a pro basketball player shooting up a strip club parking lot, the reaction would probably be a bit different.
And now that Al Sharpton is involved, you can bet there will be some $$ flowing.
 

escapeartist

Turbo Monkey
Mar 21, 2004
1,759
0
W-S. NC
I'll add some:
Another aritcle I read brought up the point that officers in this special organized crime unit (the one that set up the sting) supposedly are allowed to consume alcohol while on the job. Sounded sketchy to me, I'll try to find it again.
The article also mentioned that the police may not have identified themselves as officers.
 

JohnE

filthy rascist
May 13, 2005
13,457
1,996
Front Range, dude...
I'll add some:
Another aritcle I read brought up the point that officers in this special organized crime unit (the one that set up the sting) supposedly are allowed to consume alcohol while on the job. Sounded sketchy to me, I'll try to find it again.
The article also mentioned that the police may not have identified themselves as officers.
If that is true, NYC oughta just start writing checks...
 

Reactor

Turbo Monkey
Apr 5, 2005
3,976
1
Chandler, AZ, USA
It's funny, none of the officers involved had ever fired his gun in the line of duty.:brow: The DA and a grand jury are investigating.

In a case where you have alcohol involvement (possibly on both sides) it's hard to apply normal standards. People under the influence sometimes do stupid things. Heck the kid might have been trying to stop and just hit the gas by mistake. We're going to have to wait for the investigative reports.
 

syadasti

i heart mac
Apr 15, 2002
12,690
290
VT
Another AP story on yahoo.

They didn't follow policy:
AP@yahoo said:
The police department's policy on shooting at moving vehicles states: "Police officers shall not discharge their firearms at or from a moving vehicle unless deadly force is being used against the police officers or another person present, by means other than a moving vehicle."
 

binary visions

The voice of reason
Jun 13, 2002
22,111
1,166
NC
They didn't follow policy:
Sounds to me like a pretty silly policy.

Obviously, on the surface this appears to have been a little excessive between the 50 rounds and the bullets going astray, but discounting a "moving vehicle" as a reason to use deadly force seems a little strange to me. It can kill you just as dead and just as quickly as a machine gun.
 

dhbuilder

jingoistic xenophobe
Aug 10, 2005
3,040
0
I want my police to die rather than spray bullets into areas that contain civilians.

How do they justify shooting so randomly that bullets hit houses?
are you really that far out there ?

i think a good dose of non-bleedingheart reality is just the cure for what ails you.

i want my cops to stop criminals who think that they can enter the fantasy lifestyle that they see in the movies and the gansta vids.
 

Echo

crooked smile
Jul 10, 2002
11,819
15
Slacking at work
On one hand, a friend of mine (cop) was deliberately rammed by a drunk driver a couple years ago. Threw her about 50 feet and completely crushed her leg, to the point where it almost had to be amputated. The guy almost killed her and was obviously trying to. So don't give me any of this "oh all he did was try to run them over" because running someone down with a car is no fcuking joke kids.

But on the other hand the NYPD seems to have a bit of a track record with shooting brown people with questionable cause, and if they were drinking in a strip club and didn't identify themselves as cops... burn'em at the stake.
 

syadasti

i heart mac
Apr 15, 2002
12,690
290
VT
didn't identify themselves as cops... burn'em at the stake.
Thats the key point in this case. Witnesses interviewed said there was a verbal dispute beforehand and they didn't ID themselves. If thats the case they were definitely in the wrong any way you slice it.
 

LordOpie

MOTHER HEN
Oct 17, 2002
21,022
3
Denver
Sounds to me like a pretty silly policy.
no, it's a good policy cuz you'd have to spend a great deal more time training with your gun to shoot at and/or from a moving vehicle... and see below...

are you really that far out there ?

i think a good dose of non-bleedingheart reality is just the cure for what ails you.

i want my cops to stop criminals who think that they can enter the fantasy lifestyle that they see in the movies and the gansta vids.
yada yada.

it's not bleedingheart, it's that cops are supposed to serve and PROTECT. Exactly how and whom are they protecting by randomly firing at bad guys?

Seriously, that's just dumb.

I'd rather they took a defensive stance, hide behind something or even risk getting shot rather than them shooting an innocent bystander.

Like you said, this ain't the movies and a cop thinking he can thread the needle and pop the bad guy just doesn't work for most and certainly not with a handgun at decent distances.

And that goes back to moving vehicles.

No cop who spends enough time at other training -and- actually working can spend enough time training with their gun to be that accurate.

And I know cuz growing up in Miami Florida, there were several cases where cops shot innocent people by accident.


In other and simpler words... why make a bad situation worse?
 

binary visions

The voice of reason
Jun 13, 2002
22,111
1,166
NC
no, it's a good policy cuz you'd have to spend a great deal more time training with your gun to shoot at and/or from a moving vehicle... and see below...
Well, in a case where the vehicle is moving at high speed, I would agree that it'd be very difficult to hit and may be better left alone. However, I would say that should be more of a judgement call on the part of the officers (Is this target moving too fast for me to accurately shoot at?) than a blanket statement that it is not acceptable to shoot at someone who's trying to run you over.

After all, you also may not be able to accurately hit someone running at full tilt or riding a bike. The car may also not be moving particularly fast (if it's ramming into multiple vehicles around it, I'd suggest that he's probably not doing 50mph), or may be moving in a straight line... who knows?
 

lugnuts

Monkey
May 2, 2002
101
0
maine
I want my police to die rather than spray bullets into areas that contain civilians.
I can't think of too many likely situations where a cop who has to discharge his weapon in the line of duty ISN'T in an area that contains civilians. I guess we should bring crooks in need of shooting to the range before we shoot them? :bonk:
 

LordOpie

MOTHER HEN
Oct 17, 2002
21,022
3
Denver
I can't think of too many likely situations where a cop who has to discharge his weapon in the line of duty ISN'T in an area that contains civilians. I guess we should bring crooks in need of shooting to the range before we shoot them? :bonk:
"In an area" is a completely different situation than "areas that contain", ya know... in the line of fire.

Thanks, please try again, but let's leave out the stupid semantics.
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,649
24
SF, CA
if they were drinking in a strip club and didn't identify themselves as cops.
They were undercover... giving them the benefit of the doubt, I'd say they needed to order drinks to maintain their cover, and didn't want to reveal their identity within the club and blow a whole sting operation over a fight with some drunk bachelor party. To be fair, that's a tough situation.

That being said, when you're undercover you DON'T GET INTO A FIGHT, you jackass.
 

lugnuts

Monkey
May 2, 2002
101
0
maine
"In an area" is a completely different situation than "areas that contain", ya know... in the line of fire.

Thanks, please try again, but let's leave out the stupid semantics.
hey now, don't get me wrong here, 50 bullets is a bit much. Those cops done f**ked up.

I'm just saying that it's not like crime and officer involved shootings typically occur in places safely removed of civilians. I'm guessing that the vast majority of incidents are both "in an area" and in "areas that contain."