[jonKranked]

Why do they race if they earn nothing? They must be doing it for a reason.

the question that you should be asking is "why do companies feel it's acceptable to provide no salary to high performing athletes?

The other interesting thing is the question asking if mountain biking is your sole income; only 49% reported it as their sole income. So it should be safe to assume that most of these racers have other jobs, no?

yes, that's what it means.

Annika Langvad for example (I believe its her), she was near the top of womens xc racing, but she is also a dentist. Could situations like that be skewing the results?

no, the income values reported were just earnings from MTB and associated sponsorships.

 

[Westy]

It is almost like bike racing is a sport for the wealthy.

I should ask my coworker who races sailboats how much he makes from it.

 

[jonKranked]

So here is the thing. If an athlete does not:

(A) understand
(B) measure
(C) track
(D) leverage

Their value-add to a brand, then they just are not going to get paid more. If their core role
Is racing (as 50% state), the sole value to brands that sponsor these teams is winning at the highest level.

Nobody cares about the minor league baseball team that won the championship, and their players probably don’t make a living wage either.

This is why YouTube / IG folks can make money. Traffic is paid for, by all brands, in many ways. So if the athlete drives traffic, it’s easy to track and easy to monetize via existing benchmarks. This is why the Freeride ambassadors make good money. They are strong on social and drive traffic to DTC brands.

This is also why the ex-racers doing skills camps are just as marketable (if not more/net) to a brand than an active elite racer ... see Kirt Vories.

The value-add of a 2 second snipet on a web-only RB event, for a brand logo on a pack fill racer is (at best) equivalent to the $50k in product and $50k in travel the brand put into having the racer there.

I personally see racing kind of like going to college. It take investment to get the most out of it. But If you have good results, and form strong relationships with the right folks, you can easily parlay that into a nice career working for your sponsor brand long term, have enough name-recognition to do camps, and generally living a nice and pretty easy life getting paid to ride your bike and hang out with cool people for as long as you wish.

But again, athletes can and should earn more while at the top of their game. The problem is actually in their representation. They need agents to drive home (a) (b) (c) (d) above, opposed to just signing with a team managed by the brand, who views the entire team as a cost-center to be managed down.

while you're not wrong, this puts the onus entirely on the rider. while athletes can and should be doing more to provide value, companies should also be treating athletes more like an investment rather than a line item on a marketing budget.

don't forget, MTB is an inherently risky sport for personal injury. how many companies are offering their riders health insurance?

 

[jonKranked]

Entitlement among people with the misconception that it's in Brand X's best interest to pay them to ride their bikes for a living definitely belongs in the "What's Wrong With The Industry" thread.

no misconceptions whatsoever. it's not exactly a secret that outside the top handful of riders, compensation is a joke.

 

[jonKranked]

Entitlement among people with the misconception that it's in Brand X's best interest to pay them to ride their bikes for a living definitely belongs in the "What's Wrong With The Industry" thread.

we should also be looking at the breakdown in athlete pay for MTB vs road cycling.

 

[ianjenn]

This is why MX racing in many parts of the

I certainly get your point that the womens field isn't nearly as deep as the bros, although I would offer that any one of 5 ladies (Holl, Cabirou, Nicole, Hoffman & Seagraves) could compete for a win rather than just 3. Also not sure what results from 20+ years ago really illustrates (we already knew dudes are faster than chicks), but I do have questions about the Aug 15, 1999 race that took the Alien over 7 minutes to get down (flat, crash or was it really that long?)

Tracks were way longer overall back then. In the early 2000s, they were routinely in the 5-6 minute marks on the World Cup.

 

[ianjenn]

I would be more interested if MTB Racing is still subsidizing Road Racing.......

 

[jonKranked]

I would be more interested if MTB Racing is still subsidizing Road Racing.......

ebikes are, or will soon be, subsidizing both of them.

 

[jackalope]

This is why MX racing in many parts of the



Tracks were way longer overall back then. In the early 2000s, they were routinely in the 5-6 minute marks on the World Cup.

What do you mean, tracks are still 5 or 6 minutes for me

But damn, the thought of WC racers charging on such long courses is staggering, especially when considering the trash bikes and components they were riding.

 

[jonKranked]

Tracks were way longer overall back then. In the early 2000s, they were routinely in the 5-6 minute marks on the World Cup.

were the tracks actually that much longer in terms of distance? or have racing speeds gotten faster? my guess is a bit of both.

 

[marshalolson]

while you're not wrong, this puts the onus entirely on the rider. while athletes can and should be doing more to provide value, companies should also be treating athletes more like an investment rather than a line item on a marketing budget.

don't forget, MTB is an inherently risky sport for personal injury. how many companies are offering their riders health insurance?

Totally agree.

I have personally sat on both sides of the table in these negotiations, representing both athletes/ambassadors and brands, so just sharing my experience.

In short, very few athletes (in many sports) are good at interviewing and mostly shoot themselves in the foot by saying things like "I am always evaluating sponsors and always looking for the best deal". Which certainly is true, I don't blame them based on current pay scales, and why I have helped folks land deals.

But who would anyone say that in a real interview? And why would a brand want to invest in someone long term when they tell you they are purely transactional from the outset? Especially when this is the answer to the question "We are looking for long-term partnerships, how do you evaluate your sponsors?".

On the brand side, in my own activities and every brand I have managed, have always been to look for long-term partnerships, for several reasons: (a) building a team is resource-intensive and (b) there are large switching costs. So once you find athletes with good alignment, landing them is pretty straightforward. Present a real offer that fairly compensates them and shows a future of the continued partnership.

The challenge is actually in finding alignment. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink.

So, in short, yes, based on my (relatively limited vs others) personal experience, the onus is most often on the (male) athletes. The gender disparity is something else entirely.

 

[Jm_]

Why do they race if they earn nothing? They must be doing it for a reason. Also, personally, if I wasn't being compensated then I would not represent that brand. No one should be a free walking billboard.

Same reason young people get married, have kids, take out school loans, etc., they don't know what the F they are really doing and don't realize the implications. They are hoping for something to happen that is statistically unlikely, but they think they can beat the odds. They are probably hoping for a breakthrough, thinking that if they keep at it, they'll get into the top 10 repeatedly and start winning. While that is *possible*, at these levels, it's probably just as likely that you'll damage your body for life while trying.

 

[jonKranked]

Totally agree.

One thing that really illustrates part of this is the sheer # of riders that are changing teams every 2-3 years. The handful of riders that stay on the same team for 5+ years have become outliers.

Also, i guess the health insurance part comes from an American perspective in that we don't have a single pay / universal option. Most people rely on employer provided health care.

 

[Kanye West]

So, serious question:

Can you pinpoint a time that a male rider has influenced a bike or gear purchasing decision by you (or people you know) as a consumer? Whether it be by race results, freeride footage, promo videos, etc.

Now the same question but for a female rider?

 

[jonKranked]

So, serious question:

Can you pinpoint a time that a male rider has influenced a bike or gear purchasing decision by you (or people you know) as a consumer? Whether it be by race results, freeride footage, promo videos, etc.

Now the same question but for a female rider?

i had a pair of the sam hill 5.10's. not because they were sam hills, but because they were super discounted on steep and cheap.

 

[6thElement]

So, serious question:

Can you pinpoint a time that a male rider has influenced a bike or gear purchasing decision by you (or people you know) as a consumer? Whether it be by race results, freeride footage, promo videos, etc.

Now the same question but for a female rider?

Not for me directly.
But several years ago I picked up a GT Fury World Cup (cheap) for my wife's first DH bike as she's a big Rachel Atherton fan, they were on GT at the time and then they immediately moved to Trek...

I think that's it.

 

[marshalolson]

Also, i guess the health insurance part comes from an American perspective in that we don't have a single pay / universal option. Most people rely on employer-provided health care.

A few quick notes:
1. Absolutely an American thing, yes
2. There is a factor of W2 vs 1099 engagement between parties and how contracts are structured.
3. Any type of bigger brand supplies a minimum of catastrophic coverage in case the athlete is injured during the production of a commissioned asset or they are exposed to very high lawsuit costs.

If the athlete has their own insurance and is injured while producing work product requested by the company, their ins company will go after the sponsor brand, irrespective of the terms in the contract, and obviously the risk of bad press (as we have seen). The cost to fight is higher than the cost to supply it... and obviously, it is the right thing to do.

There are certainly (well-publicized) edge cases, but in my experience, this is not the status quo.

 

[Jm_]

So, serious question:

Can you pinpoint a time that a male rider has influenced a bike or gear purchasing decision by you (or people you know) as a consumer? Whether it be by race results, freeride footage, promo videos, etc.

Now the same question but for a female rider?

I seem to remember a time in DH when the Missys, ACs and a few other female riders seemed “as big” as the males on the scene. Didnt last though. During that time they seemed to have about the same impact as the male riders as far as promoting their gear. My memory may just suck though.

 

[jonKranked]

A few quick notes:
1. Absolutely an American thing, yes
2. There is a factor of W2 vs 1099 engagement between parties and how contracts are structured.
3. Any type of bigger brand supplies a minimum of catastrophic coverage in case the athlete is injured during the production of a commissioned asset or they are exposed to very high lawsuit costs.

If the athlete has their own insurance and is injured while producing work product requested by the company, their ins company will go after the sponsor brand, irrespective of the terms in the contract, and obviously the risk of bad press (as we have seen). The cost to fight is higher than the cost to supply it... and obviously, it is the right thing to do.

There are certainly (well-publicized) edge cases, but in my experience, this is not the status quo.

for racing that is UCI sanctioned, I believe that they have minimum requirements for teams, no? and i believe that also carries down to national federations that fall under UCI jurisdiction. Does any of this carry over to individually sponsored racers? or is it only for trade teams?

 

[jonKranked]

I seem to remember a time in DH when the Missys, ACs and a few other female riders seemed “as big” as the males on the scene. Didnt last though. During that time they seemed to have about the same impact as the male riders as far as promoting their gear. My memory may just suck though.

when you have standout athletes it will always be beneficial. I'd even argue that Rachel Atherton falls into that category.

 

[marshalolson]

I would also add... there are many areas in modern culture where workers are grossly underpaid. "Professional" mountain bike racers, frankly, are not a marginalized population. This a choice made to pursue something for personal fulfillment by those that can afford it. Outside of the elite-of-the-elite, this is having your hobby underwritten. It is not the systematic repression of a population.

The reality is there is a finite amount of resource for sports marketing at a single brand and within the industry. This budget can only be a small percent of the total revenue. Every athlete is competing for their portion, and there are 10 more talented athletes behind every pro today eager for a chance. So if an athlete wants to earn more money, there is ABOLSUTELY money for the taking. But you have to advocate for it with data and justification. If any athlete reading this wants help, PM me, haha.

Again, the gender pay disparity here is a global problem. In cycling, it is because most brands are not good at marketing + don't know what they are missing with the ladies on their roster (or lack thereof).

 

[Westy]

So, serious question:

Can you pinpoint a time that a male rider has influenced a bike or gear purchasing decision by you (or people you know) as a consumer? Whether it be by race results, freeride footage, promo videos, etc.

Now the same question but for a female rider?

Never and never.

Why listen to anyone who gets paid to promote a product? You could argue that results could demonstrate superior performance, but I doubt what a pro can do with a specific bike translates too much to what I could do with a specific bike.

However, on the rare occasion I need massive amounts of caffeine and sugar I will buy a redbull over other shit because they sponsor stuff I like to watch.

 

[marshalolson]

when you have standout athletes it will always be beneficial. I'd even argue that Rachel Atherton falls into that category.

Like Missy, I would say Rachel was probably the most marketable mountain biker in the world, during her prime.

 

[kidwoo]

It is almost like bike racing is a sport for the wealthy.

I should ask my coworker who races sailboats how much he makes from it.

Nah I followed the series clay porter did on the Athertons and the dirtjumps they had by the hamlet in the hills definitely looked like a bunch of work.

 

[jonKranked]

I would also add... there are many areas in modern culture where workers are grossly underpaid. "Professional" mountain bike racers, frankly, are not a marginalized population. This a choice made to pursue something for personal fulfillment by those that can afford it. Outside of the elite-of-the-elite, this is having your hobby underwritten. It is not the systematic repression of a population.

I don't disagree, but let's also remember that these are athletes choosing to pursue a cycling "career" (if you can call the 15 or so years where one could make a career out of it) over other options where they would almost certainly be better compensated.

laughingLizard.gif

 

[marshalolson]

I don't disagree, but let's also remember that these are athletes choosing to pursue a cycling "career" (if you can call the 15 or so years where one could make a career out of it) over other options where they would almost certainly be better compensated.

laughingLizard.gif

Who told the 38th place pack filler pro they could make $100,000k per year (above and beyond the $50-100k per year they do make via free bikes and traveling around the world)?

The only folks making real money as MTB racers were already destroying global competition as a Jr, a freak of nature generational talent like Aaron Gwin, or bring far broader mainstream marketing opportunity like Zink on Sportscenter.

Contrast PB's data with Minor League Baseball Player Salaries (2018): According to The Athletic, the average annual player salary for a minor league player was $6,000 in Single-A, $9,350 in Double-A and $15,000 in Triple-A.

How is Mountain biking different? Consistent podium at WC or mega social is the big leagues. Everything else is the minor leagues.

 

[slyfink]

I really thought that specialized dropped the ball with the DH kit they made for Troy when he rode for them. They made him a load of different kits one year, he was in a different one every race. They could easily have done a limited run of a few different variations and I'm sure they would have sold well, Troy is a fan favourite and their dh pants are some of the best out there (the jerseys are fine too)

you must watch too much soccer (football?).

 

[maxyedor]

da fuq you do with 50 shirts in 4 years? i probably haven’t even bought that many in 38 years so far?

Mostly spill shit on them, or get them caught on something, then my wife throws them away. Back in my single dirt-bag days I ran the same 5-10 shirts for maybe a decade.

Can we now talk about the gender pay gap in Netball?

If you don't pay the women, then technically, there is no pay gap.

Yes, I know they get paid, but the difference between $0 and their salary is a rounding error compared to the men. At least WNBA plays can usually get jobs as high school coaches after they retire.

So, serious question:

Can you pinpoint a time that a male rider has influenced a bike or gear purchasing decision by you (or people you know) as a consumer? Whether it be by race results, freeride footage, promo videos, etc.

Now the same question but for a female rider?

I can name a few things I went out of my way to avoid because they were associated with dickbags. Maxxis Bling Blings for instance.


Paola Pezzo's Marzocchi ad circa like 1996 sold me on Zokes for life. They got their money's worth out of that endorsement.

 

[Westy]

Who told the 38th place pack filler pro they could make $100,000k per year (above and beyond the $50-100k per year they do make via free bikes and traveling around the world)?

Minor League Baseball Player Salaries (2018): According to The Athletic, the average annual player salary for a minor league player was $6,000 in Single-A, $9,350 in Double-A and $15,000 in Triple-A.

How is Mountain biking different? Consistent podium at WC or mega social is the big leagues. Everything else is the minor leagues.

And people buy tickets to watch baseball. Weren't people complaining about having to pay to watch the WC race at Snowshoe?

 

[mtg]

It is almost like bike racing is a sport for the wealthy.

I should ask my coworker who races sailboats how much he makes from it.

This was the largest takeaway for me when I worked in the motorsports industry. It's a fun activity for wealthy people, and the few spots at the very top earn money. Other than those, it's literally pay to play. That goes all the way up to F1 as well. Mountain bike racing is no different.

 

[jonKranked]

Who told the 38th place pack filler pro they could make $100,000k per year (above and beyond the $50-100k per year they do make via free bikes and traveling around the world)? The only folks making real money as MTB racers were already destroying global competition as a Jr, a freak of nature generational talent like Aaron Gwin, or far more broadly marketing in mainstream media like Zink on Sportscenter.

Minor League Baseball Player Salaries (2018): According to The Athletic, the average annual player salary for a minor league player was $6,000 in Single-A, $9,350 in Double-A and $15,000 in Triple-A.

How is Mountain biking different? Consistent podium at WC or mega social is the big leagues. Everything else is the minor leagues.

How is mountain biking different? they're not getting paid a base salary (note the difference here between salary and compensation). Based on the PB poll (of the top 40 from each discipline), just over 20% of them aren't collecting a salary. Could you imagine if 20% of major league baseball players collected no salary?

Also, If you're comparing bike racers to baseball players, Then the WC circuit (regardless of discipline) would be the equivalent of major league baseball, not just the top riders. no riders can just show up and try to qualify for a WC the weekend of the event, you have to be on a trade team (not that easy) or have earned enough UCI points to get your name on the start list. i get what you mean about pack filler, but they're not just grabbing joe 6 pack on 2 wheels to fill out the start list behind the top 10. just like MLB doesn't grab anyone with a baseball to fill out a team around 1 or 2 super stars, you still have to commit time to train to get there.

so the minor league comparison doesn't really hold up. minor leagues is more like national federation race series, it's how you get to the big leagues, re: UCI points and all.

 

[boogenman]

I bought a pair of the Intense(FiveTen) shoes with sticky rubber back in 2002 because Chris Kovarik raced with them.

So, serious question:

Can you pinpoint a time that a male rider has influenced a bike or gear purchasing decision by you (or people you know) as a consumer? Whether it be by race results, freeride footage, promo videos, etc.

Now the same question but for a female rider?

 

[Jm_]

I wanted one of those green palmer forks.

 

[jonKranked]

I wanted one of those green palmer forks.

Palmer should have gotten sponsored by Cadillac.

 

[jonKranked]

@marshalolson - speaking of injuries and insurance........

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/more-than-50-percent-of-pro-riders-feel-they-wouldnt-be-adequately-supported-after-an-injury-pinkbike-state-of-the-sport-survey.html

 

[ianjenn]

Don't forget those AA players can get called up to cover an injury at any time. Plus most of those guys were essentially scouted by Pro franchises throughout their HS and College play times and just didn't have that tad bit to get them on the MLB team so they got placed in AA.

 

[kidwoo]

This was the largest takeaway for me when I worked in the motorsports industry. It's a fun activity for wealthy people,

 

[marshalolson]

@jonKranked - First of all, this is a good discussion, glad for it! I totally agree with what you said, but perhaps my point wasn't clear. Baseball teams directly monetize each game (Tickets, broadcast rights, jersey sales, concessions, parking, etc). All-stars fill the stands. As such, Allstars make 40x that of the league minimum, and the fall-off (minor leagues) is to essentially no pay.

Bike brands do not monetize each race. The bigger brands monetize Gold medals and WC stripes to sell at retail and the little brands use a podium as a quick marketing moment. The top few racers, who are mostly the same every year (the all-stars) compete for the medals and stripes. The challengers (top 10 threats) might make things interesting, get on the podium now and again, and might get a good overall result with consistency and no injuries through the season. The all-stars make 40x that of the challengers. But the fall-off (not in the top 10), is pack fill for development and hangers-on. And these folks get effectively no pay, just like minor leaguers....

... unless they can advocate and show value in other ways

 

[Inclag]

Nothing preventing racers from forming some form of union. Otherwise, racer salary data merely illustrates potential hypocrisy between a brands marketed values vs. their true values.

 

[Inclag]

@jonKranked - First of all, this is a good discussion, glad for it! I totally agree with what you said, but perhaps my point wasn't clear. Baseball teams directly monetize each game (Tickets, broadcast rights, jersey sales, concessions, parking, etc). All-stars fill the stands. As such, Allstars make 40x that of the league minimum, and the fall-off (minor leagues) is to essentially no pay.

Bike brands do not monetize each race. The bigger brands monetize Gold medals and WC stripes to sell at retail and the little brands use a podium as a quick marketing moment. The top few racers, who are mostly the same every year (the all-stars) compete for the medals and stripes. The challengers (top 10 threats) might make things interesting, get on the podium now and again, and might get a good overall result with consistency and no injuries through the season. The all-stars make 40x that of the challengers. But the fall-off (not in the top 10), is pack fill for development and hangers-on. And these folks get effectively no pay, just like minor leaguers....

... unless they can advocate and show value in other ways

Free market... there's winners and losers amiright???