[binary visions]

Everyone uses your avatar.. So what?

Great analogy

It's not. That's the point. God is the cop out here. <snip> Whatever. I'll bring up what I want.

Gee, you make some fantastic points in this argument. Well stated ones, too.

Namely the plot for all these lives and their every interaction. Not just a bit more complex, but massivly more so.

Ahh, so you did decide to make a point.

I disagree (wait, didn't you just say that God wasn't more complex in your previous post? Hmmm..). IMO, a random spawning of all that we see is far more complex than essentially one being simply having control over all of it. Isn't that the allure of religion for many people, after all? The simplicity in the knowledge that someone else is in control, and the whole explanation for everything is just, "God exists"?

There's not really a quantitative way to measure the complexity of either, and I don't see one as being "massivly" [SIC] more complex than the other.

 

[fluff]

Not to mention the anthropocentric viewpoint we have.

The logic that the universe is so complex that the chances of it happening by chance are so small as to be discounted is fallacious. Whatever the probability of something happening is it can still happen.

 

[binary visions]

The logic that the universe is so complex that the chances of it happening by chance are so small as to be discounted is fallacious. Whatever the probability of something happening is it can still happen.

I just skimmed the last 40 or so posts and can't figure out what this is responding to..

 

[MikeD]

Not to mention the anthropocentric viewpoint we have.

The logic that the universe is so complex that the chances of it happening by chance are so small as to be discounted is fallacious. Whatever the probability of something happening is it can still happen.

It's also anthro-centric (although Biblically sound, if that's your bag) to think of 1) man as special or different from the rest of the environment and 2) God as a humanlike designer who designs the world like we'd design a car or a bike frame...like us, but better/faster/stronger/smarter, and with an ability to will things into existence. (As opposed to a less personal concept, like Schopenhauer's world will...)

Frankly, the amazing complexity of the world speaks to me in a way to DENY a humanlike (though superhuman) central designer, who created everything as it is. It speaks to me of a decentralized evolution (although not neccessarily in the Darwinian sense). It's like chaos theory...complex and fascinating things arising from the repetitions of simple building blocks. Whether you want to think of God as the umoved mover or the great experimenter (alien or supernatural) who designed/started the process along, or the potentially benevolent force that's guided the course of universal existence, I guess, is another story.

I recommend, again, Nietzsche's "On Truth and Lie in an Extramoral Sense" as a reference on anthro-centrism and the (gah!) DC graphic novel "The Watchmen" as a fantastic look at power and meaning in human existence.

 

[fluff]

I just skimmed the last 40 or so posts and can't figure out what this is responding to..

Well, repeat until you do!

 

[Changleen]

I recommend, again, Nietzsche's "On Truth and Lie in an Extramoral Sense" as a reference on anthro-centrism and the (gah!) DC graphic novel "The Watchmen" as a fantastic look at power and meaning in human existence.

Watchmen is OK, but 'The Dark Knight Returns' is better.

 

[Changleen]

I disagree (wait, didn't you just say that God wasn't more complex in your previous post? Hmmm..).

A non-involved god, as some people believe in is simpler. However a god who polts and plans the daily machinations of everyone's lives in order to achieve certain outcomes, as Andy suggested, would require a far higher level of complexity. It's pretty simple. You need to stop skimming.

IMO, a random spawning of all that we see is far more complex than essentially one being simply having control over all of it.

I think you need to consider what one being having control over everything would actually mean, as a pose to setting up a starting state and letting it run. The previous is by definition more complex. In both cases you need to create the starting state, but in the second you then need to continue to watch over it, plot and plan and execute control over every aspect of everyone's life, the way the wind blows, where comets fly, what colour your dogs hair is. The level of detail required for control is quite amazing if you subscibe to the 'There's a higher purpose' theory. Your argument breaks down the moment god intervenes in any tiny aspect of anything because in the other case the creator turns his back the moment he's done creating.

Isn't that the allure of religion for many people, after all? The simplicity in the knowledge that someone else is in control, and the whole explanation for everything is just, "God exists"?

Yes. Lazy isn't it?

 

[Andyman_1970]

Yes. Lazy isn't it?

I know what your saying regarding someone being dogmatic - however, I sure wouldn't consider myself "lazy" in regards to explaining life and such through my faith.

 

[MikeD]

Watchmen is OK, but 'The Dark Knight Returns' is better.

Well, yeah, I guess, but it doesn't have that Dr. Manhattan guy who's got to decide the value of humanity and life in the face of his infinite knowledge and power...or the conundrum of truth vs. price vs. peace...been a long time since I've read anything comic-y, though.

 

[fluff]

However a god who polts

I hate polters with a passion. Hnag 'em hgih I say..

 

[philsthrills]

I had a half hour to kill this afternoon and I ended up killing it by reading this thread. I am a snowboarder by profession, which makes people think that I am not smart right from the get go. I can live with that, and I don't know that I have the depth to enter the conversation going here. I can live with that, and you guys can continue to have your fun.

My question is this:

This thread was started by someone who had a few questions to pose about the Christian god. The conversation has come a long way with a lot of different philosophies. My guess is that Andyman has read the Christian bible.
Has anyone else done so?
Again, I am no expert, but if you are going to talk about the Christian god, doesn't it make sense that you should read the Christian bible?

 

[Changleen]

I know what your saying regarding someone being dogmatic - however, I sure wouldn't consider myself "lazy" in regards to explaining life and such through my faith.

Of course, but then you're not exactly the average bible-thumper are you?

 

[MikeD]

Well, Burly asked about God, directed mostly to Christians, but we kind of ignore a lot of what he says anyhow.

It's just thread creep...we've just moved on to broader topics.

Just reading the bible hasn't helped a lot of people sort out their beliefs and feelings re: god, either.

 

[Changleen]

I am a snowboarder by profession, which makes people think that I am not smart right from the get go.

On the contrary, getting paid to be a snowboarder seems pretty ****ing smart to me. I have to sit at a desk and press buttons. You lucky, lucky bastard!

 

[Changleen]

I hate polters with a passion. Hnag 'em hgih I say..

Hey, Fluff, you spelt 'Hang' and 'High' wrong.

 

[fluff]

Hey, Fluff, you spelt 'Hang' and 'High' wrong.

Yup, but I have read the bilbe...

 

[philsthrills]

Thread creep - that's funny.

I do not really want to get into the stuff on this thread - I don't like to type about politics and religion.

My question was not about the Christian bible doing anything for anyone. I merely wondered if anyone had read it. It seems strange that so many people have opinions about (what I assumed was the Christian god since that is what the thread started with) God but have apparently not read the book.

The reason that I make the assumption that people have not read is because Andyman is the only one that talked about things in the book.

 

[philsthrills]

"On the contrary, getting paid to be a snowboarder seems pretty ****ing smart to me. I have to sit at a desk and press buttons. You lucky, lucky bastard!"

It's a tough life, but someone has to do it!

 

[Changleen]

Thread creep - that's funny.

I do not really want to get into the stuff on this thread - I don't like to type about politics and religion.

My question was not about the Christian bible doing anything for anyone. I merely wondered if anyone had read it. It seems strange that so many people have opinions about (what I assumed was the Christian god since that is what the thread started with) God but have apparently not read the book.

The reason that I make the assumption that people have not read is because Andyman is the only one that talked about things in the book.

I've had the Bible read at me if that counts...

 

[Silver]

Thread creep - that's funny.

I do not really want to get into the stuff on this thread - I don't like to type about politics and religion.

My question was not about the Christian bible doing anything for anyone. I merely wondered if anyone had read it. It seems strange that so many people have opinions about (what I assumed was the Christian god since that is what the thread started with) God but have apparently not read the book.

The reason that I make the assumption that people have not read is because Andyman is the only one that talked about things in the book.

I've read the Bible. Many many times. Many different translations. Went to a religious school growing up, and always aced Bible classes. Was pegged to be a minister in my early teens, if that is worth anything to you. I even screwed up the elders in my congregation at my confessional hearing (some Protestants don't let you take communion until you're old enough to answer some questions...) with a discussion on freewill that only the minister followed.

It's no wonder I turned out the way I did.

 

[fluff]

Thread creep - that's funny.

I do not really want to get into the stuff on this thread - I don't like to type about politics and religion.

My question was not about the Christian bible doing anything for anyone. I merely wondered if anyone had read it. It seems strange that so many people have opinions about (what I assumed was the Christian god since that is what the thread started with) God but have apparently not read the book.

The reason that I make the assumption that people have not read is because Andyman is the only one that talked about things in the book.

I have read it more than once, my father was a preacher.

The reason Andy refers to it more than most is because he has a faith in the Christian God which most of the other posters lack and he is actively studying the Bible to help him to a greater understanding of the word of God.

From my perspective the Bible is a mix of mythology, fact, Jewish history and philosophy. Regardless of whether you believe it is divine it can be very illuminating. The Old Testament gives one a good idea of Jewish history and their view on the Goyim, the New Testament contains some snippets of great wisdom, along with subversion of the original message (IMO).

 

[fluff]

I even screwed up the elders in my congregation at my confessional hearing (some Protestants don't let you take communion until you're old enough to answer some questions...) with a discussion on freewill that only the minister followed.

Don't ya just hate the concept of predestination?

It's no wonder I turned out the way I did.

Indeed.

 

[Silver]

Don't ya just hate the concept of predestination?

Actually no. I bring that up when my mother worries about my soul. Since she professes to believe it (but not it's logical conclusion), it's a nice conversation ender.

 

[MikeD]

The Old Testament gives one a good idea of Jewish history and their view on the Goyim, the New Testament contains some snippets of great wisdom, along with subversion of the original message (IMO).

So is the disparity 1) evidence that God changed his mind or

2) part of a preconceived plan?

 

[fluff]

So is the disparity 1) evidence that God changed his mind or

2) part of a preconceived plan?

I see it as the second great hijacking of Judaism (by Rome). The first being by the Ethiopians, the third being the Arabs.

Heck if you have a monotheistic religion as good as that you're never gonna be able to keep it to yourself...

 

[Andyman_1970]

I am a snowboarder by profession, which makes people think that I am not smart right from the get go.

I'll say two things make you smart a) you get to snowboard for a living rather than as Chang put it "press buttons" all day, and b) you asked this question -

My question is this:

This thread was started by someone who had a few questions to pose about the Christian god. The conversation has come a long way with a lot of different philosophies. My guess is that Andyman has read the Christian bible.
Has anyone else done so?
Again, I am no expert, but if you are going to talk about the Christian god, doesn't it make sense that you should read the Christian bible?

I love to talk about all things Biblical, one of only thing I would leave my profession for now is to talk about that stuff full time. I used to get frustrated when people would spout off about the Bible says this or that - knowing they have not read it. I came to a point however that resacting that way (in frustration) did little to advance the conversation - so now rather that say "I'm right and your wrong" I try to educate on what the Bible says and what was going on at the time it was written.

 

[Andyman_1970]

Of course, but then you're not exactly the average bible-thumper are you?

True, I'm "labeled" at my church the "liberal" dude who runs the college ministry and rides mountian bikes.............

 

[Andyman_1970]

Don't ya just hate the concept of predestination?

Calvin was clueless................IMO

 

[fluff]

Calvin was clueless................IMO

Yeah, boxers with cuffs? They just ride up and make your nadgers uncomfortable and sweaty.

 

[MikeD]

Yeah, boxers with cuffs? They just ride up and make your nadgers uncomfortable and sweaty.

Cuffs on boxer shorts? Must be some bespoke Brit thing...

So do you wear a full break on those boxer shorts?

 

[Andyman_1970]

So is the disparity 1) evidence that God changed his mind or

2) part of a preconceived plan?

I'll say #2 - I can't see anywhere in the Gospels where Jesus gives an indication that He has come to start a new religion.

Christianity was one of many sects of Judaism, even with all the Gentiles coming to faith in Jesus during Paul's ministry it was still considered in the last part of the book of Acts as "the Sect".

The "problem" arose in that you had Rome tearing up Israel, the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD and on into the early second century. This unfortunatly produced a "split" between the Gentile and Jewish Christians early in the 2nd century - the Gentiles (even though they were not "with" Rome) got "identified" with Rome (and as such became the enemy or sorts) by the Jewish Christians. Due to the wars in Israel with all the Jewish revolutionaries (Masada anyone) the Jewish believers got scattered and the church in Jerusalem disolved. The Gentile side of things grew and so you have the formation of a "new religion". So really it's a combination of events that caused the split between Christianity and Judaism - which was further intensified as many of the early church fathers were very anti-semitic and sought to erase any sembelance (sic) of the Hebaric roots of Christanity - one even wanted to throw out the Old Testament.

 

[MikeD]

..good anwer...

But my question, then, is: why didn't God give the world Jesus and the New Testament at the beginning of things, instead of waiting?

 

[fluff]

Cuffs on boxer shorts? Must be some bespoke Brit thing...

So do you wear a full break on those boxer shorts?

Lo siento, no comprende, cabron.

 

[fluff]

But my question, then, is: why didn't God give the world Jesus and the New Testament at the beginning of things, instead of waiting?

He didn't need to?

 

[Andyman_1970]

But my question, then, is: why didn't God give the world Jesus and the New Testament at the beginning of things, instead of waiting?

I'm getting ready to teach tonight so I don't have a whole lot of time to dive into this - the intention all along (Garden of Eden) was that we live in harmony with God always. Adam and Eve screwed that up, so God calls these people to be as Isaiah puts it "a light to the world" and show others God's love and compassion. From the Jewish point of view God's people are here to work at "repairing" the world in an effort to get it back to how it was (Garden of Eden - which is why in John's Gospel when Mary sees the ressurected Jesus she thinks He's the gardener.......hint hint, God is remaking the world to how He orginally intended it to be).

Now this is the tricky part (that I am still sorting through), God's "people" are not (post Jesus) not limited to just the Jews, He made the renewed covenant avaliable to everyone. That said, some Christians, think we replace the Jews, I wholeheartedly disagree - God made some serious promises with those folks. Chrisitan are however "grafted into" the Tree of Israel (Romans 11 - which BTW Paul is talking about when he uses the term "elect" it's the nation of Israel).

Anyway, that's the Clif Notes version which I'm sure will be full of "holes" and produce many questions................got to run.................

 

[fluff]

I'm getting ready to teach tonight so I don't have a whole lot of time to dive into this - the intention all along (Garden of Eden) was that we live in harmony with God always. Adam and Eve screwed that up, so God calls these people to be as Isaiah puts it "a light to the world" and show others God's love and compassion. From the Jewish point of view God's people are here to work at "repairing" the world in an effort to get it back to how it was (Garden of Eden - which is why in John's Gospel when Mary sees the ressurected Jesus she thinks He's the gardener.......hint hint, God is remaking the world to how He orginally intended it to be).

Now this is the tricky part (that I am still sorting through), God's "people" are not (post Jesus) not limited to just the Jews, He made the renewed covenant avaliable to everyone. That said, some Christians, think we replace the Jews, I wholeheartedly disagree - God made some serious promises with those folks. Chrisitan are however "grafted into" the Tree of Israel (Romans 11 - which BTW Paul is talking about when he uses the term "elect" it's the nation of Israel).

Anyway, that's the Clif Notes version which I'm sure will be full of "holes" and produce many questions................got to run.................

Ok, it's a lot more detailed, but I was saying the same thing... honest!

 

[ridecruz888]

i agree that there is no god but your point isnt very good, god doesnt control your life and how you live, throughout your life you'll make descisions that'll define who you are in the end, god doesnt make a plan for you...maybe there is a god its just not the christian one...

 

[Andyman_1970]

I thought I would give this thread a bumpy............

 

[MikeD]

Do you even post anywhere else on this board?

 

[Andyman_1970]

Yeah but it's not as much fun............LOL