[StunZeeD]

So for some reason lately I feel I have been regressing and just grabbing too much brake..not sure why but have really been thinking lately what is making the fast guys that much faster

So is a big part of it just having the confidence you can control your bike. I feel like maybe I am just not feeling confident in my bike or maybe me enough to make the fast turns, to let off the brake and fly down the trail

anyone else experience this or have ideas how to overcome this?

 

[bullcrew]

Throw some Hayes on there that ought to do the trick! Ill bill ya later for the ride clinic!

 

[SCARY]

Try pushing the backsides of the terrain instead of pedaling.In fact one of the best plateau breaking exercises Ive done is doing your favorite trails without pedaling.It breaks your mind out of your normal routine.You really feel the terrain and you look for every opportunity for "free"speed by making it flow.Plus ,you can tell all your friends you're not pedaling and turn it into a fun race with them.
--Ive had to do this a few times over the years when I plateaud out.You get faster actually by going slower doing this.You'll realize how much energy your wasting by riding tight and pedally,"trying"to go faster.
-I forget how much fun it is every time too.Youll catch yourself letting the brakes out a little longer every time,because you're going slower and it's safer and not as high pressure.Hope it helps.
---oh, motocross helps alot too,but that's another 5-10 G's and more trips to the hospital than you're probably wanting right now.

 

[Killerbarbies]

Throw some Hayes on there that ought to do the trick! Ill bill ya later for the ride clinic!

Thanks, that really got my morning off to a great start, still chuckling

 

[bullcrew]

Try pushing the backsides of the terrain instead of pedaling.In fact one of the best plateau breaking exercises Ive done is doing your favorite trails without pedaling.It breaks your mind out of your normal routine.You really feel the terrain and you look for every opportunity for "free"speed by making it flow.Plus ,you can tell all your friends you're not pedaling and turn it into a fun race with them.
--Ive had to do this a few times over the years when I plateaud out.You get faster actually by going slower doing this.You'll realize how much energy your wasting by riding tight and pedally,"trying"to go faster.
-I forget how much fun it is every time too.Youll catch yourself letting the brakes out a little longer every time,because you're going slower and it's safer and not as high pressure.Hope it helps.
---oh, motocross helps alot too,but that's another 5-10 G's and more trips to the hospital than you're probably wanting right now.

Good avice!!! Heck I might even use this one!
Thanks

 

[rigidhack]

Along the same lines, ride chainless for a while. Literally remove the chain and the RD, so as not to break it or send it into your spokes. Forces you to ride with flow and keep your speed up.

 

[S.K.C.]

Stun - I dig the profile pic BTW!

Practicing chainless like SCARY said definitely helps. Also - this may seem like a silly question but: How far down range are you looking while riding? You should make sure you are looking at least 4 bike lengths ahead for normal crusing and the faster you go - the farther ahead you should look. Find you line with your focused vision, then as it rolls by keep track of it with your peripheral vision.

Also - gaining trust in your tires plays a pretty big roll as well. Find a nice wide open flat corner that's pretty smooth with no immediate obstructions off the trail (in case you go down or have to bail).

Here's what I said to another rider with a similar problem toward the end of last year:

"Find a very familiar section of a relatively FLAT(not steep), WIDE, SMOOTH trail that doesn't have anything dangerous on it such as trees or boulders. Pick a corner that you like that doesn't have any of these dangerous features around it and push the traction limit at SLOW speed until you slide out (jogging speed). WEAR YOUR ARMOR AND YOUR HELMET (full face - but this goes w/o saying) - especially your elbow pads, knee pads and some shin guards. Have a back plate? Put that on too!

Experiment with your lean angle and speed. Learn to adjust your speed with braking before entering the corner. Stay off the brakes in the corner and know that as the tires slide they will be scrubbing speed (slowing you down). Learn to judge your speed entering it and expect yourself to be washing out and know how to safely lay the bike over as you slide out. Put out a foot, let it barely skim the ground as you slide the corner and when you start too loose speed and feel like you are coming to a stop - get ready to use that foot to keep you upright. Stay on the bike, and let it slide out.

Try to control the slide evenly between the front and rear (using your brakes to adjust front/rear balance) - That's why you should be GOING SLOW. You may discover that at slow speed it is REALLY hard to get the bike to slide*. That's fine. Just listen and feel the tires as they struggle for traction. If the rear slides out first - you'll get launched off the back. If the front slides out first you'll go down hard on your face and/or shoulder. Let the tires break loose EVENLY between the front and rear and let it slide. Keeping the slide EVEN is key - the front and rear should be sliding at the same time. Do this in an area where you won't be hitting anything. Watch the section with Peaty and The Don from DIRT Mag's "Fundamentals" DVD. Don lays it over in a corner after pushing it too hard and Peaty commends him for it (pushing the limits that is).

If I can't get to the trail - I'll rip a bit out on a soccer field with some exposed dirt or on a baseball diamond. The surface won't be comparable to an actual trail but try to find some exposed dirt and rail some flat turns. Don't try to get a feel for traction on the grass - you'll slide suddenly and unpredictably all over the place and get hurt. If you can find a field with some downward sloping run-in - even better. Other times I'll go out to the local paved jogging trail, look for some dirt off of a corner and do the same there.

Gradually crank up the speed until you can start to feel the moment where the tires begin to break loose - BUT don't push it beyond that point on purpose to dump it like before. At this stage just learn to feel for that sensation of "traction" making the transition to "slide" and then holding on and staying in control. Once you find that point get comfy with it. The key is to practice in the exact same spot over and over so the terrain is fairly consistent.

Also: Press down on the inside grip (end of bars which are on the inside of the turn. If turning left - put a bit of weight on the left grip). At the same time - weight the outside pedal.

EDIT:
*Note: When I say "slide" I don't mean like a Sam Hill mach 4 rally drift - I mean a point where the tires are sliding, but only just a bit. The important thing here is to find out where your traction in a corner goes from "carve" to "drift", getting a feeling for that - and then ultimately learning to manipulate one into the other and vice versa.

...so that covers DIRT... for rocks, wet conditions, different types of dirt, it's pretty much a test session of figuring out where that traction limit is.

FORGOT to mention:

Proper cornering technique:

THE APPROACH
As you enter a turn, adjust your entry speed to match the corner. Ask yourself these questions. Is it banked? Flat? Off-camber? Does the radius change?
If the turn is banked, you need to brake a lot less than if it is off-camber. The more the outside of the turn is angled in your favor, the more tire you will have on the ground, and the more traction you will get. The reverse applies for an off-camber turn.
If the radius is tight, set up quickly, be prepared to apply the brakes and move to the front of the bike. If the radius is wide, don’t use too much braking, select the smoothest line and don’t position yourself too far forward.

SURFACE CONDITIONS
Once you have read the turn and are braking properly, look at the dirt. Is it hard and slippery, soft and slippery, soft and tacky, rough and tacky, or something else entirely? Evaluating the surface helps determine weight distribution.
Hard: If the turn is slippery, lean forward to get maximum front-wheel traction.
Soft: If it’s soft, lean back to counterbalance deceleration.
Tacky: If it’s tacky, ride with your weight in the middle of the bike.
Rough: When the ground is rough, stay back and follow the bike. Let the bike bounce around underneath you.

When two conditions are combined in the same turn, simply adapt the best technique for dealing with the corner’s specifics. For example, if it’s rough and slippery, it’s best to keep your weight in the middle of the bike. Yes, it is a compromise between being forward on slippery dirt and back on rough dirt, but it offers you the ability to adjust quickly.
What should you do if you enter the perfect turn—one that is soft and tacky? Keep your weight to the back of the bike and lean into the turn instead of steering. The closer to perfect a corner is, the easier it is to carry speed through it. Cornering faster saves precious energy. On a long ride, these savings help increase your overall speed—and endurance—dramatically.

WHAT TO DO WITH YOUR FEET
Should you keep your foot on the pedal or take it off? Do whatever you want, but here are the rules of thumb. Foot-out: Taking your inside foot off the pedal (motocross-style) is the easiest way to turn when first starting out. With your foot hanging out, you can use it as a rudder when you get in trouble. SKIM the ground - don't try to put it down at speed or you'll be missing a foot. The conditions will dictate what you do with your feet. If the turn is tacky, put your inside foot forward, plant it, keep it forward, lean back and sit down. As you exit the turn, pull the foot as you straighten your body.

In slippery conditions, put your foot out as you enter the turn, but don’t stick it forward. Instead, hold the foot in line with your body. That way, if the rear wheel breaks loose, you can dab your foot on the ground or use it as a rudder by turning your toe inward and letting your leg slide towards the back of the bike to counteract the slide.

If the turn is rough, your foot should hover just above the ground, acting as a counterbalance. This should aid you in keeping the wheels from breaking loose, but if they do break free, you can always dab your foot to keep from going down.

Feet-up: Once you understand when to put your foot out, you can begin to leave it on the pedals. You might corner faster with your foot out, but you will accelerate out of the corner faster with your feet up.
The biggest difference between being clipped in and being clipped out is how your weight is distributed. When clipped in, the only counterbalance you can produce is the weight of your inside knee and elbow sticking out. To get maximum traction, try using your outside knee and elbow to push down on the bike. This will enhance your ability to get traction. Forward-and-back weight distribution should stay the same whether you are clipped in or not.


Hope this helps!

 

[bullcrew]

Stun - I dig the profile pic BTW!

Practicing chainless like SCARY said definitely helps. Also - this may seem like a silly question but: How far down range are you looking while riding? You should make sure you are looking at least 4 bike lengths ahead for normal crusing and the faster you go - the farther ahead you should look. Find you line with your focused vision, then as it rolls by keep track of it with your peripheral vision.

Also - gaining trust in your tires plays a pretty big roll as well. Find a nice wide open flat corner that's pretty smooth with no immediate obstructions off the trail (in case you go down or have to bail).

Here's what I said to another rider with a similar problem toward the end of last year:

"Find a very familiar section of a relatively FLAT(not steep), WIDE, SMOOTH trail that doesn't have anything dangerous on it such as trees or boulders. Pick a corner that you like that doesn't have any of these dangerous features around it and push the traction limit at SLOW speed until you slide out (jogging speed). WEAR YOUR ARMOR AND YOUR HELMET (full face - but this goes w/o saying) - especially your elbow pads, knee pads and some shin guards. Have a back plate? Put that on too!

Experiment with your lean angle and speed. Learn to adjust your speed with braking before entering the corner. Stay off the brakes in the corner and know that as the tires slide they will be scrubbing speed (slowing you down). Learn to judge your speed entering it and expect yourself to be washing out and know how to safely lay the bike over as you slide out. Put out a foot, let it barely skim the ground as you slide the corner and when you start too loose speed and feel like you are coming to a stop - get ready to use that foot to keep you upright. Stay on the bike, and let it slide out.

Try to control the slide evenly between the front and rear (using your brakes to adjust front/rear balance) - That's why you should be GOING SLOW. You may discover that at slow speed it is REALLY hard to get the bike to slide. That's fine. Just listen and feel the tires as they struggle for traction. If the rear slides out first - you'll get launched off the back. If the front slides out first you'll go down hard on your face and/or shoulder. Let the tires break loose EVENLY between the front and rear and let it slide. Keeping the slide EVEN is key - the front and rear should be sliding at the same time. Do this in an area where you won't be hitting anything. Watch the section with Peaty and The Don from DIRT Mag's "Fundamentals" DVD. Don lays it over in a corner after pushing it too hard and Peaty commends him for it (pushing the limits that is).

If I can't get to the trail - I'll rip a bit out on a soccer field with some exposed dirt or on a baseball diamond. The surface won't be comparable to an actual trail but try to find some exposed dirt and rail some flat turns. Don't try to get a feel for traction on the grass - you'll slide suddenly and unpredictably all over the place and get hurt. If you can find a field with some downward sloping run-in - even better. Other times I'll go out to the local paved jogging trail, look for some dirt off of a corner and do the same there.

Gradually crank up the speed until you can start to feel the moment where the tires begin to break loose - BUT don't push it beyond that point on purpose to dump it like before. At this stage just learn to feel for that sensation of "traction" making the transition to "slide" and then holding on and staying in control. Once you find that point get comfy with it. The key is to practice in the exact same spot over and over so the terrain is fairly consistent.

Also: Press down on the inside grip (end of bars which are on the inside of the turn. If turning left - put a bit of weight on the left grip). At the same time - weight the outside pedal.

...so that covers DIRT... for rocks, wet conditions, different types of dirt, it's pretty much a test session of figuring out where that traction limit is.

FORGOT to mention:

Proper cornering technique:

THE APPROACH
As you enter a turn, adjust your entry speed to match the corner. Ask yourself these questions. Is it banked? Flat? Off-camber? Does the radius change?
If the turn is banked, you need to brake a lot less than if it is off-camber. The more the outside of the turn is angled in your favor, the more tire you will have on the ground, and the more traction you will get. The reverse applies for an off-camber turn.
If the radius is tight, set up quickly, be prepared to apply the brakes and move to the front of the bike. If the radius is wide, don’t use too much braking, select the smoothest line and don’t position yourself too far forward.

SURFACE CONDITIONS
Once you have read the turn and are braking properly, look at the dirt. Is it hard and slippery, soft and slippery, soft and tacky, rough and tacky, or something else entirely? Evaluating the surface helps determine weight distribution.
Hard: If the turn is slippery, lean forward to get maximum front-wheel traction.
Soft: If it’s soft, lean back to counterbalance deceleration.
Tacky: If it’s tacky, ride with your weight in the middle of the bike.
Rough: When the ground is rough, stay back and follow the bike. Let the bike bounce around underneath you.

When two conditions are combined in the same turn, simply adapt the best technique for dealing with the corner’s specifics. For example, if it’s rough and slippery, it’s best to keep your weight in the middle of the bike. Yes, it is a compromise between being forward on slippery dirt and back on rough dirt, but it offers you the ability to adjust quickly.
What should you do if you enter the perfect turn—one that is soft and tacky? Keep your weight to the back of the bike and lean into the turn instead of steering. The closer to perfect a corner is, the easier it is to carry speed through it. Cornering faster saves precious energy. On a long ride, these savings help increase your overall speed—and endurance—dramatically.

WHAT TO DO WITH YOUR FEET
Should you keep your foot on the pedal or take it off? Do whatever you want, but here are the rules of thumb. Foot-out: Taking your inside foot off the pedal (motocross-style) is the easiest way to turn when first starting out. With your foot hanging out, you can use it as a rudder when you get in trouble. SKIM the ground - don't try to put it down at speed or you'll be missing a foot. The conditions will dictate what you do with your feet. If the turn is tacky, put your inside foot forward, plant it, keep it forward, lean back and sit down. As you exit the turn, pull the foot as you straighten your body.

In slippery conditions, put your foot out as you enter the turn, but don’t stick it forward. Instead, hold the foot in line with your body. That way, if the rear wheel breaks loose, you can dab your foot on the ground or use it as a rudder by turning your toe inward and letting your leg slide towards the back of the bike to counteract the slide.

If the turn is rough, your foot should hover just above the ground, acting as a counterbalance. This should aid you in keeping the wheels from breaking loose, but if they do break free, you can always dab your foot to keep from going down.

Feet-up: Once you understand when to put your foot out, you can begin to leave it on the pedals. You might corner faster with your foot out, but you will accelerate out of the corner faster with your feet up.
The biggest difference between being clipped in and being clipped out is how your weight is distributed. When clipped in, the only counterbalance you can produce is the weight of your inside knee and elbow sticking out. To get maximum traction, try using your outside knee and elbow to push down on the bike. This will enhance your ability to get traction. Forward-and-back weight distribution should stay the same whether you are clipped in or not.


Hope this helps!

Damn a how to sticky for SKC! Very nice....

 

[S.K.C.]

Thanks man! I just hope Stun finds it useful!

 

[spocomptonrider]

Wow SKC talk about a great response! My much humbler and simpler approach that has helped others as well seems to be this,

In my opinion downhill is very much a ballet or a dance if you will, you are bobbing and weaving your way down a track filled with things trying to slow you down. Learning where to best pick the bike up in order to clear obstacles or have a cleaner line into a corner helps with your exit speed by making it easier to keep the suspension loaded the entire way through out the turn and giving you the ability to "pop out" into your next section and get on the pedals again quickly.
It's sometimes tough to visualize but often times hitting the brakes is a last ditch effort to get some traction back, I've found that really staying on top of the suspension allows for less use of brake and higher exit speed. Maintaining that rhythm for an entire run takes an incredible amount of skill and focus but there is nothing like trying to get it right.

Also, as SKC alluded to clipless pedals are a good training tool to get you out of any bad habits you may have developed riding flats, I think the biggest 2 are foot out too often, and not pedalling enough; what I mean by that is you see a fair few kids running around expecting to win races by going round corners fast. It's a full package.


This is getting into rambling territory which I was trying to avoid so I'll make this quick, there are a few other things I see frequently that seem to keep people from really charging,
1. Elbows down and in, keeping your elbows high allows for better control, less fatigue, and better technique on the bike.
2. Move your shoulders, you'd be amazed at what the bike will track through if you point your body where you need to go and just let off and let the bike do what it was designed for.

Hope that is at least kinda helpful, if it seemed unclear let me know.

 

[bullcrew]

Thanks man! I just hope Stun finds it useful!

Should its pretty packed with good info.....

I think going back to good ol "BRAAAAAAP" noises under the helmet and pretending to be a flat tracker or Bob "Hurricane" Hana works well... Sounds funnier than hell as you go by but works man and occasionally throw a "SCHREEEEEEE" in there when cornering like Dukes of hazard and its on....

 

[vikingboy]

Great post SKC, thanks.

 

[Beast]

That's simple. Look up more / further ahead. Seriously.

 

[zdubyadubya]

Thanks man! I just hope Stun finds it useful!

Sandwich! if you are listening, post this up in the FAQ. this comes across alot, and SKC's response is the best i've heard yet.

 

[jonKranked]

a beer or 2 will help take the edge off

 

[acair422]

since no one else has addressed this (perhaps some people have considered it a given) but one thing I do see a lot of, is improper bike setup. I know each person has their own "style" there are certainly some things that are universal and could certainly help. I'm talking about bike/suspension setup (note i'm not saying upgrade) but make sure the bars are rolled forward (or back)in a way that feels comfortable. Make sure your brakes are easy to reach and working at their best (better brakes means going faster). Also maybe even experiment with tire pressure. While tires can act as another form of suspension, a lack of air can damage your handling ability. And one thing to add on to SKC's response, when braking for corners, try to get your braking done early,you might lose some entrance speed, but you'll gain a lot on the exit and won't be hammering on the pedals to get back up to speed (saves energy).

After changing your bike setup (tinker with things a bit if you don't feel entirely comfortable on the bike) try riding trails you don't normally ride, whether they're harder or easier, this has always been very helpful for me when trying to improve...hope some of this is helpful...

 

[StunZeeD]

thx everyone for the great replies..as mentioned SKC that's a wealth of knowledge there and I really appreciate the time you put into it

going to work on these techniques, ill let you guys know how it goes

 

[slowitdown]

So for some reason lately I feel I have been regressing and just grabbing too much brake..not sure why but have really been thinking lately what is making the fast guys that much faster

So is a big part of it just having the confidence you can control your bike. I feel like maybe I am just not feeling confident in my bike or maybe me enough to make the fast turns, to let off the brake and fly down the trail

anyone else experience this or have ideas how to overcome this?

drive the bike through the bottom bracket. feel the pressure through your feet.

and

realize that some people process and experience "fast" differently than you. everyone has limits. if you have found yours, you may not be able to go much faster. if you're scared, don't ignore that. injury usually follows the path of ignoring when you're scared.

 

[wil_e123]

haven't read through the thread so I don't know if it's been said yet: for me, one of the best ways to get confidence on the runs I normally ride on is to get someone faster than you to go in front of you down the run, an try to stick to them as best as you - reasonably - can...

Bear in mind that the person in front of you shouldn't be THAT much faster than you, otherwise it'll either a) be a pointless exercise because they'll just distance themselves from you after the first corner and/or b) result in your death.

I do this as much as I can (having been on a dh hiatus for 2 years and now slowly getting back into it), and it does work. Except today I went a bit too far over the limit of 'control' and nailed myself in a corner. Sh*t happens I guess.

Going to read SKC's reply now, which is probably a thousand times more useful.

 

[5150dhbiker]

I actually don't know what I do when I ride fast. Guess I'm looking as far ahead as possible and quickly analyzing the terrain. Your body position while riding is also a big factor. This will determine how you will react when you hit drops, jumps, rocks, corners, etc.

That's about all I got. Also, watch some riding videos, that's what's helped me quite a bit. In the 6 years that I've been racing nobody has taught me anything about rider position, do's and dont's...I learned most things by trial and error. In fact, I'm still really really struggling with cornering and have had quite a few people criticize the way I do that

Some of the tips I read on here are really really helpful though. Good luck, ride safe and ride fast!!!


Oh, and get into motocross....that's another HUGE thing that helped me!!

 

[S.K.C.]

thx everyone for the great replies..as mentioned SKC that's a wealth of knowledge there and I really appreciate the time you put into it

going to work on these techniques, ill let you guys know how it goes

Glad to help!

Now get out there and have some fun in the dirt!

 

[ryanxj]

My .02...

Something that has recently proved helpful to me in regards to all around bike skills, especially cornering, has been riding cross country. Yes, I really did just say that... To be more specific, riding with sissy little tires that are really easy to push the limits of traction will allow you to easier find where that envelope is.

While Im not suggesting you need to go buy yourself a 23lbs xc sled, a bunch of lyrca and a heart rate monitor, perhaps throwing some smaller, less aggressive rubber on your dh bike and hitting some appropriate trails would help you find that balance point of bite vs. drift. Not to mention when you do step back up to 'magnum' sized rubbers, you're gonna feel like you are riding like a BAMF!

 

[descente]

switch your levers up moto style (front on right, rear on left) and go ride the hardest trail you know. that will teach you brake control.

 

[motomike]

Do timed runs on a trail that you ride a lot. Keep doing that and force yourself to improve on every run. No run is perfect, and it's also fun trying to beat your own time. You will get faster.

 

[davec113]

That's simple. Look up more / further ahead. Seriously.

This is a great thread and should be stickied. Without ^^this^^ all the other pointers aren't going to help much because you won't have planned your line out far enough in advance.

 

[SCARY]

switch your levers up moto style (front on right, rear on left) and go ride the hardest trail you know. that will teach you brake control.

i run moto style.A guy decided to do it to,like ten years ago,because of a conversation we had and I explained why I did it and why I liked it.

He went out and did a hard trail,got panicked at something and grabbed the brakes.OTB and broke his neck and was in a halo for months.

Please don't do this,if you do,get used to it first on easy terrain until you're not looking down to see which brake line is going where.

This will only teach you you're stupid.

But if you're stupid,it won't teach you anything