Quantcast

Liberal Church? An oximoron or worse?

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus
Can't have it both ways....


Liberal Church May Lose Funds Over Sermon
Nov 07 9:09 PM US/Eastern

LOS ANGELES

The Internal Revenue Service has warned a prominent liberal church that it could lose it's tax-exempt status because of an anti-war sermon a guest preacher gave on the eve of the 2004 presidential election, according to church officials.

The Rev. George F. Regas did not urge parishioners at All Saints Episcopal Church to support either President Bush or John Kerry, but he was critical of the Iraq war and Bush's tax cuts.

The IRS warned the church in June that its tax-exempt status was in jeopardy because such organizations are prohibited from intervening in political campaigns and elections.

The church's rector, J. Edwin Bacon, told his congregation about the problem Sunday.

"It's important for everyone to understand that the IRS concerns are not supported by the facts," Bacon said.

Bacon later said he chose Sunday to inform the congregation because Nobel Peace Prize winner Archbishop Desmond Tutu was in attendance and because he believes a decision from the IRS is imminent. He called the IRS threat "a direct assault on freedom of speech and freedom of religion."

An IRS spokesman in Washington declined to comment Monday, saying he could not discuss particular cases.

Some All Saints members said they feared the 3,500-member church was being singled out for its political views.

All Saints has long been vocal about its positions. Its Web site mentions the upcoming special election in California and says three Republican-backed propositions would "alter the very fabric of our lives as a democracy by limiting the right to representation and the right to express a political point of view." Regas, who gave the 2004 sermon, retired 10 years ago as the church's rector.

Marcus Owens, the church's tax attorney and a former head of the IRS tax-exempt section, said the agency offered to drop the proceedings if the church admitted wrongdoing. The church declined the offer, he said.

The IRS has revoked a church's charitable designation at least once. A church in Binghamton, N.Y., lost its status after running advertisements against Bill Clinton's candidacy before the 1992 presidential election.
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
Andyman_1970 said:
So free speech doesn't apply to churches????
Correct me if I'm wrong but don't churches have to abide by some sort of "non-political platform" to maintian their tax status?

The irony of course is that I'm sure there are thousands of churches out there where plenty of pro-bush, spread the freedom propaganda making the rounds who will never have to worry about this.
 

sanjuro

Tube Smuggler
Sep 13, 2004
17,373
0
SF
Separation of Church and State, fellas. Although this seems a little petty.
 

Reactor

Turbo Monkey
Apr 5, 2005
3,976
1
Chandler, AZ, USA
kidwoo said:
Correct me if I'm wrong but don't churches have to abide by some sort of "non-political platform" to maintian their tax status?

The irony of course is that I'm sure there are thousands of churches out there where plenty of pro-bush, spread the freedom propaganda making the rounds who will never have to worry about this.

You are correct sir.

IRS.gov said:
To be tax-exempt as an organization described in IRC Section 501(c)(3) of the Code, an organization must be organized and operated exclusively for one or more of the purposes set forth in IRC Section 501(c)(3) and none of the earnings of the organization may inure to any private shareholder or individual. In addition, it may not attempt to influence legislation as a substantial part of its activities and it may not participate at all in campaign activity for or against political candidates.
They can exist all they want, but to be tax exempt from the "state" they have to maintain their seperation from the "state". Otherwise they are like any other company.
 

DRB

unemployed bum
Oct 24, 2002
15,242
0
Watchin' you. Writing it all down.
Reactor said:
They can exist all they want, but to be tax exempt from the "state" they have to maintain their seperation from the "state". Otherwise they are like any other company.
It really has nothing to do with the separation of church and state.

The verbage in the tax code comes from 1954, when then Senator Lyndon Johnson, got the changed passed to silence two non-profit groups that were campaigning against him at the time. It was really an unintended consequence that Churches got swept up in it.

The reality was that much of the initial groundswell of movement towards the American revolution was started from Churches. The British even called the clergy the "Black Regiment". The same is true for the Civil War as well.
 

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
14,914
2,879
Pōneke
Seems a little like double stardards to me. There's plenty of open GOP support from many churches, but criticise them and you're in trouble. Lame.
 

Reactor

Turbo Monkey
Apr 5, 2005
3,976
1
Chandler, AZ, USA
Changleen said:
Seems a little like double stardards to me. There's plenty of open GOP support from many churches, but criticise them and you're in trouble. Lame.
Double standards are this administration's M.O. all right.
 

DRB

unemployed bum
Oct 24, 2002
15,242
0
Watchin' you. Writing it all down.
Changleen said:
Seems a little like double stardards to me. There's plenty of open GOP support from many churches, but criticise them and you're in trouble. Lame.
The only Church that this as occurred to in the past (that I have heard of) was the NY church mentioned in the article posted. The church got in trouble for saying don't vote for Clinton or you will go to hell.

Normally, if Churches don't mention candidates they are typically left alone. So there maybe a little partisanship going on. But with the IRS, who knows what they are thinking.
 

kinghami3

Future Turbo Monkey
Jun 1, 2004
2,239
0
Ballard 4 life.
I'm a big fan of seperation of church of state, both from a political standpoint and a religious standpoint, but this seems a little petty. Like Changleen said, it's a double standard, and there's plenty of conservative churches that worship Bush like a god (which worries me by the way).
it may not attempt to influence legislation as a substantial part of its activities and it may not participate at all in campaign activity for or against political candidates.
Keywords are 'substantial' and 'candidates'. It is really debatable whether or not giving a sermon condeming some of Bush's actions is substantial, it's no outwardly advertized and is focused on just the congregation. Also, Bush is not a candidate, so that part doesn't even apply in this case.
 

rooftest

Monkey
Jul 10, 2005
611
0
OC, CA
...said the agency offered to drop the proceedings if the church admitted wrongdoing. The church declined the offer, he said. [\quote]

That last sentance has got to be bs.

I do think the IRS has bigger things they should be looking into than harrassing some church.
 

Andyman_1970

Turbo Monkey
Apr 4, 2003
3,105
5
The Natural State
I'm not sure a church has to have IRS 501c3 status for it to be tax exempt - if a group of people get together and claim they are a church of some sort (I may be wrong here) they are tax exempt.

I was researching about starting my own church in the last week or two and seem to remember reading something along those lines.
 
Aug 22, 2004
979
0
FEAR ME ^
bush seems to have alot more church support than any liberal, usually bc their neo-conservative nazis...

but wouldnt an anti war message be a message of peace? And, correct me if im wrong, but isnt peace a key component of christanity? Im atheist but my mom is very religious, and green party...but shes totally for seperation of church and state