[Ciaran]

As you know I have thrown around some ideas about "saving" lift assisted DH in So Cal. While I would have liked to have fleshed out the ideas more and learn more, I thought that now would be a good time to bring some of those ideas to the table and let you all see them and discuss them. Tell me what you think. Do you have any ideas? Do you want to help? Do you think I am a total tard and that I am way off base? Let me know!

I offer to you, oh Ridemonkey downhillers & freeriders of Southern California, my thought's and ideas...

FYI - I am not going to be completely forthcoming about everything I have thought about or all the ideas I have. If what I am thinking of actually happens it could change downhill mountain biking (hereafter referred to as DH MTB). Some people may not appreciate that. In addition some ideas may step on a few toes. I am sure that Team Big Bear, NORBA and USA Cycling do not want to see the world of DH racing change. What we are proposing could likely squeeze them out all together or at the very least expose them as exploitative promoters lacking the appropriate skill and enthusiasm required to properly advance the sport of DH MTB.

That said, on with the show-

I have a few ideas of what I would like to see happen. I know that we can achieve these ideas/goals, it's just a matter of figuring out how, and then going out and actually doing it. One of the hardest things to find is responsible people willing to donate their time and energy.

We want first and foremost to bring lift assisted DH MTB back to Southern California. There have been many thoughts and ideas thrown around, mostly centering on convincing Snow Summit (hereafter referred to as "SS") to allow DH MTB at their resort. I believe that while Snow Summit can play a vital role in the DH MTB community and has the potential to be a world class venue, I believe that SS is not the place to start. Reason: They believe that they have a "lock" on the DH MTB community in Southern California. Unless they have direct competition they will not invest money or manpower into improving their mountain, or DH program. There are approximately 6 ski resorts in Southern California with operational ski lifts. Two of these are owned by SS, Snow Summit itself, and Bear Mountain. Of the remaining resorts, two have very good potential due to their size, location, terrain, or a combination thereof.

We want to bring lift assisted DH MTB racing (hereafter referred to as "racing") back to Southern California. NORBA Team Big Bear, and USA Cycling have all mis-managed the sport of racing. In order for racing to flourish it/we need to: 1) provide easy access to racing for beginner racers. Without new racers the sport cannot continue. The sport must be made as safe as is possible for beginner and sport level racers. There must be a development program for young/lower level racers. 2) Pros must be provided with incentive to come and race. Cash and tangible goods as prizes. Pros need to be paid adequately.

Currently the sport of DH MTB is viewed as an "extreme" sport. We wish to change that perception. The perception of DH MTB as an extreme sport causes higher insurance costs, ski resort management and land use management to not work with us. While DH MTB is inherently a dangerous sport with the potential for personal injury, there are many non-extreme sports that have higher injury and/or death rates. If we can show this, we can achieve lower insurance rates, more land and resort managers willing to work with us, and more beginners/new riders coming to the sport.

A new organization is needed. This organization should be a non-profit, for the riders, by the riders type of organization. If profit is taken out of the picture, the opportunities for exploitation are reduced, and more moneys can be invested back into the sport. A non-profit will allow us to hold fundraising events and accept large tax deductible donations. This organization will handle the administration, sanctioning, and promotion of racing. In addition it will be responsible for the licensure of the racers and riders.
The organization must work with the cycling industry to gain trust, support, and sponsorship.

Things we need-

A lawyer. We need to know about personal injury and contract law. Best case scenario is that the organization has a lawyer on staff.

Industry contacts - We need someone who already has established contacts with various bike industry people and organizations.

Forest Service contacts - We need someone with forest service/BLM contacts.

Business/marketing people - We need to sell our sport. We need to incorporate the organization as a non-profit.

These are some of my ideas. With enthusiasm, dedication, and a lot of very hard work I believe that we can achieve our goals.

What do you think-

Thank you for your time,

Mike Nunez
"Ciaran"

 

[ncrider]

Things we need?

A lawyer. We need to know about personal injury and contract law. Best case scenario is that the organization has a lawyer on staff.


Business/marketing people ? We need to sell our sport. We need to incorporate the organization as a non-profit.

Damn Ciaran, you can type fast. Anyway, thats a very good proposal/start. As you know I have PM'd you as to my interest and areas of help. I have a very close relationship with two laywers who have a combined total of 30 plus years of experience in personal injury and contract law, you might call them my parents. Anyway I've allready pitched the idea to them and they like it. Also I am currently working in marketing/analyst for a sports company. So we could set up massive amounts of fundraising and events through me. And finaly I have worked for non-profits and ran my own business (not non-profit) in the past.

So I guess you could say I have covered several of the needs you listed. Anyway, I will be a the skyline ride in a few weeks and hopefully we can meet and discuse more of this and actually get something moving forward (appart from good ideas).

 

[Zark]

Bold plan.

Suggestion: Work closely with IMBA if you can. Help build a "sustainable bike park" image that will make Forest Rangers a little more pliable. An IMBA trail care clinic once a suitable venue is selected and organization formed would be REALLY good.

Criticism:
Promoters are a necessary evil, much like lawyers. TBB was hogtied by SS's control of the venue and USFS land controls. Not that a like the fockers, its just they have the timing equipment and knowhow when it come to racing.

That said a larger non-profit that drives things as a whole is a great idea.

 

[downhillzeypher]

I think we should say HOW we're going to bring back lift assisted DH...

Ciarian told me (though I'm not sure all this is right with his plan) that we should have like a "club" that all DH riders would join. There will be a yearly membership fee and will be run non-profit. As a club, we sort of rent out the mountain (hence the fee), maintian and cut trails ourselves, and provide our own insurance. The only thing the mountian has to do is give us permission to work and ride the trails and we can handle the rest. I guess you can say the mountian acts solely as a host with no responsibilities or liablities. If anyone sues for neglegence or anything, the club is the one responsible.

SINCE the club will be non-profit, we can accept donations and the donators will recieve thier money back in their taxes. Good deal eh?

 

[Ciaran]

I think we should say HOW we're going to bring back lift assisted DH...

Ciarian told me (though I'm not sure all this is right with his plan) that we should have like a "club" that all DH riders would join. There will be a yearly membership fee and will be run non-profit. As a club, we sort of rent out the mountain (hence the fee), maintian and cut trails ourselves, and provide our own insurance. The only thing the mountian has to do is give us permission to work and ride the trails and we can handle the rest. I guess you can say the mountian acts solely as a host with no responsibilities or liablities. If anyone sues for neglegence or anything, the club is the one responsible.

SINCE the club will be non-profit, we can accept donations and the donators will recieve thier money back in their taxes. Good deal eh?

This is indeed a main point of my idea. Though the club will grow into a full blown organization much like IMBA. If it goes ahead, the first couple of years will likely be free membership. But the other points are correct. We would cut the trails, we would run the races, we would be the race officials. Part of my idea is to take as much of the liability and cost off of the resort.

 

[downhillzeypher]

Well the money to rent out the resort's gotta come from somewhere... I kinda doubt we could get that kind of money just from bike co. We'd have to have a major bankroller come in like chevy or something to justify not having a fee.

 

[Ciaran]

Well the money to rent out the resort's gotta come from somewhere... I kinda doubt we could get that kind of money just from bike co. We'd have to have a major bankroller come in like chevy or something to justify not having a fee.

The no fee thing is so we can get numbers up. So that we can say, We are an organization with X number of card carrying registered members. Finances will have to be worked out. I have ideas, but am not schooled in business. However there are a few people on here who are. Thankfully they have contacted me and are willing to help out. You are right though, sponsorship is a must.

 

[dhjill]

Wow, Mike, it really looks like you've got quite the plan going, here. You and I have PM'd back and forth about this a little bit, but I really had no idea what you've been working on. Good stuff.

Even though I'm pretty much "retired" from DH, I'm still pretty sad to see SS go away. I don't have many folks to DH with anymore, so the lift was really cool since it eliminated the whole shuttle BS. I'd love to see a lift return to SoCal.

At any rate, just to play devils advocate here for a moment, the chips really are stacked against those of us who support DH racing. Unfortunately, we participate in a sport that 99% percent of the population doesn't even know exists...and because of that, getting funding from outside sponsors to help pay for race events is so hard these days. It's a sheer numbers game...when a potential sponsor asks about what kind of exposure they'll get for their $50,000 contribution and you tell them 1000 racers per event plus maybe 500 spectators, that's a tough sell. It's really a catch-22 situation since the sponsors that could most benefit from "quality over quantity" exposure (like those in the bike industry) don't have any money to give cash sponsorships...and the larger companies outside the bike industry (a la Mountain Dew, Subaru, etc) want numbers. That's why so many of the larger, non-endemic sponsors have pulled out of MTB sponsorship over the past years...the numbers just aren't there.

Insurance is a BIG issue. Yes, DH MTB is considered an extreme sport but it's going to take an act of god to persuade an insurance company to grant lower insurance rates if we can prove our accident/mortality rate is lower than other sports. Insurance rates are based on actuaries and governed by the State, so changing rate structures is easier said than done.

I really like your idea about making the sport more accessible to beginners. Let's face it...DH is pretty damn prohibitive. First, you have to shell out $3000 to $6000 for a bike, maybe another grand for the related gear...and then you have to travel to a ski resort to participate? That's a hard sell...especially for kids. Having courses suited for bikes a beginner would typically own might be a good place to start.

I also really like your idea about non-profit. Might be a way to get some nice tax-deductible contributions from people!

As far as TBB mismanaging the sport, well, my opinion of TBB doesn't fit with the popular majority here. I've raced with TBB since 1998, and I can honestly say that I don't have a problem with the way they run races. Sure, the courses could have been more challenging...but with the forest service on their butts about every new trail, there's not much they can do. Plus, they have the challenge of keeping the trails safe for the rec riders who ride the trails on non-race days. I think people just got bored...since Southridge and TBB are the only guys in town, people just got tired of riding the same trails.

I DO have a problem with the way USA Cycling is running the sport...not just DH, but MTB racing in general. NORBA has problems. Maybe I'll rant about them later.

Mike, have you given any thought to approaching some of the local indian reservations? Albeit, a lift may not happen, but there could be some viable areas to build an MTB park and hold races there via shuttle. I'm no lawyer, but from what I understand, I don't know that a sovereign nation can be sued...therefore the insurance issue isn't an issue anymore. Indian reservations have lots of land and most are more accessible than a ski resort...and they have lots of money. Might be worth looking into.

Anyhow, I've ranted long enough. Keep up the good work. I work in the industry in the marketing/sponsorship/promotions department, so if I can help, let me know.

(;

Jill

 

[dhjill]

The no fee thing is so we can get numbers up. So that we can say, We are an organization with X number of card carrying registered members. Finances will have to be worked out. I have ideas, but am not schooled in business. However there are a few people on here who are. Thankfully they have contacted me and are willing to help out. You are right though, sponsorship is a must.

Card carrying members are a must! This is part of my beef with NORBA's one-day license BS. Yes, it saves us money, but it's a band-aid approach and RUINS the hope to get big $$ sponsors in the future. If you can't show you have 50,000 members, it makes it hard to pitch a sponsorship proposal to them.

 

[Ciaran]

Awsome! You all have some great ideas and feedback. This is exactly what we need. I am still digesting everything, but I can say that since I am not heavily involved in racing (I have done the occasional race in the past, and I like going and watching the races) a racers perspective in invaluable.

Jill, your idea of hitting up the indian reservations/tribes is brilliant! Thank you so much for your input. Thank you everyone. Let's keep em coming. I own mucho webspace and can dedicate a website and e-mail to the effort so that we have a central place to get and share info.

We'll be BBQing after the ride on Saturday, and I will be bugging you all who show up about this.

 

[LFB]

Mike,
No disrespect intended. There is nothing wrong with your ideas, and everything you said makes sense.

One of the other things I am heavily involved in is jet ski racing. Your post is exactly the same as many posts on the jet ski forums. I once thought the same. We faced the same problems: Insurance costs, lack of venues, and a lack of sponsorship dollars to name a few.

After going to work for the sanctioning body for a few years, I've learned that there is a lot more things that go on behind the scenes that nobody would ever understand. What you want is often different than what the promoters want, and it's also different than what the big manufacturers want, and so on. All of the different groups involved have different interests, and it's impossible for the sanctioning body to please all of them. I know, this is hard to understand without going into elaborate details.

As suggested by another person, if you want to help, go to work for one of the existing sanctioning bodies (it's not so easy starting up a new one - trust me). You'll gain some insight of all the challenges that the sanctioning bodies face. Also, you'll realize that many of the things they are blamed for (e.g., the closure of SS to DH) is way beyond their control. Most of the issues are things that the promoters are responsible for (like pro payout and venues).

On top of the problems, there are the other issues, such as bringing new racers into the sport. I'll use myself as an example. I grew up racing BMX for about 10 years, and I later raced jet skis. For the past 5 years, I've considered racing DH. But when it comes right down to it, the whole day seems to consist of two practice runs and two race runs (back in the day of DH at SS). For a fraction of the cost of the entry fee, I could have ridden all day on as many runs as I'd like. What's the point of racing? To prove that I'm faster than others in my class? What does that mean to me? Not much. I'd rather go and ride with elbow-to-elbow contact with my buddies on our time, using the course we designate (instead of the boring course used for my class - I'd start off racing beginner). I meet just as many cool people on non-racing rides.

I'm not going to disagree that the sanctioning body couldn't do better - just like in any business. BTW there is no good reason for a non-profit organization. I could go on and on, but I'll spare you. Maybe we can talk about it if we do Mt Wilson on Saturday.

 

[Ciaran]

Mike,
No disrespect intended. There is nothing wrong with your ideas, and everything you said makes sense...
<snip>
... BTW there is no good reason for a non-profit organization. I could go on and on, but I'll spare you. Maybe we can talk about it if we do Mt Wilson on Saturday.

I would love to talkto you more about this. I would like to hear your insights and thoughts. Honestly, right now you are likely not going to dissuade me, but you will be able to point out what is going to be difficult, will take an act of god, and what is down right impossible. In the end if this is impossible I will be able to say that at least I tried as hard as I could and gave it my all.

The reasons for the non-prof are two: It removes profit from the picture. Many organizations like this are ruined because someone was skimming off the top, mis-managing funds, or someone accuses somone else of said infractions out of a personal beef. And second, it allows tax-deductible donations (or at least makes them easier), though someone with business training would be able to better say if it is needed. ( Not knowing your background, I don't know if you are a business person)

I raced go-carts when I was younger which is also not a mainstream sport, and is very dangerous. The tracks are privately owned, the equipment costs more than DHing, and people, including kids compete and get hurt. If they can do it, so can we. Part of the issues we are facing is that DH is a YOUNG sport. Other sports have faced similar issues in their infancy.

 

[ncrider]

So I just got off the phone with the director of summer opperations at Mt. Baldy. I gave him a very quick pitch about how "we" are a non-profit organization dedicated to the preservation and growth of DH MTBing. I told him we were very excited to hear they would be open to DH this summer. I said we would love to set up a time to have a "meet and great" and give a full presentation as to what we could offer them for this summer. In addition to a meet and great I also offered to set them up with volounteer trail builders for their summer trails. And guess what?!!!!

He was into it and not only that he wants to meet this weekend!!!!!
The foot is now in the door ladies and gentleman. Now Lets stuff our whole body in!!!

 

[snutty]

hey, Ciaran I work for the forest service, pm if you need to find out anthing like contacts, addidtional info

 

[dhjill]

Hey Mike...just a thought. If you want to work the non-profit angle, you might want to get in touch with Jerry Sieve from Team Nova. Team Nova is a youth development cycling team that's also a 501(c)(3) non-profit. He might be able to give you some pointers in setting something like that up. They have a full-on race team and even host races (the Nova Desert Classic was actually designated a NORBA National XC race this year). They seem to have mostly XC riders, so maybe there's some room to start up a 'satillite' DH organization. Go to www.teamnova.org.

 

[Ciaran]

ncrider and I spoke at length this evening and have decided to combine our powers and work together towards our common goal. We decided to try and get the meeting with Mt. Baldy scheduled for either Sunday or Monday.

Plans are moving forward for the establishment of the downhill organization/club. We will be posting a thread to see what it should be named (Keep it clean ), and once it's named we will move forward with the establishment of it as a non profit corporation. We will post information and details as we work them out and will probably ask for volunteers quite often.

We are both very positive and excited about this. We know that we can achieve our goals with a lot of hard work.

 

[LFB]

Ciaran,
By no means do I want you to stop your efforts! Keep at it! It takes pro-active people like yourself to make things happen.

My point was more along the lines that sanctioning bodies get blamed for all the pitfalls of a sport, when that definately is not the case. In most cases, the racing sanction body has nothing to do with government or land issues. Much like NORBA does racing and IMBA handles use issues. The same is true for dirt bikes. While many people think AMA does both, that's not really the case. The AMA handles the issues, and AMA Pro Racing sanctions the big racing events (okay, I think the regular AMA may do some racing stuff, but they aren't involved with Supercross, Motocross or other large events, if I remember correctly - my facts may not be up to date). AMA and AMA Pro Racing are completely separate, and have no affiliation.

Usually, what I'll call the land issue organization employs at least one attorney, and they are usually quite skilled in their area of expertise. Unfortunately, their adversaries (like the Sierra Club) are well funded, and have many connections within the legal system. When you hear of a land use issue going to court, it doesn't end up at a random court. Whatever side initiates the case will set it up so that it goes in front of a judge who they believe will take their side, based on the outcome of previous cases. It's very political, and entails a lot of strategy. Even though I worked at the racing sanctioning body for jet ski racing, the land-use, or should I say the water-use organization worked in the same building (and I used to ride road bikes with their attorney).

In regards to insurance, years ago, it was difficult to find good insurance for jet ski racing. And while this may sound like a copout for the insurance companies, but after September 11, 2001, they re-evaluated worse-case scenarios. As a result, when we renewed our insurance, it doubled, and the benefits went down (or it would have quadrupled!). This was the same for both liability and medical.

Don't think there isn't money to be made in a non-profit business. A non-profit business simply means the business can't make a profit. The employees, and especially those who are running a non-profit organization, can make as much as they want. And to ensure the business doesn't make a profit, management usually receives bonuses for their efforts. The idea that the people behind them aren't making a living is deceptive. Running non-profits is quite lucrative, and there are many rich people who run them. This is not an answer. One of the things I learned at working at a racing sanctioning body is that you will never please everyone. As a result, somewhere along the way, you're going to piss everyone off at one time or another. Unfortunately, that's a reality. It's really no different than any other sanctioning body.

 

[PatBranch]

Ciaran, my dad is a lawyer who is on the side against insurance companies. He knows a lot about this stuff and said he would help.

 

[reflux]

A non-profit business simply means the business can't make a profit. The employees, and especially those who are running a non-profit organization, can make as much as they want. And to ensure the business doesn't make a profit, management usually receives bonuses for their efforts. The idea that the people behind them aren't making a living is deceptive. Running non-profits is quite lucrative, and there are many rich people who run them.

Unfortunately the IRS is making a point of cracking down on entities not deserving of the non profit status, with excessive wages being a red flag (the top 5, I think, highes paid employees are listed on the tax return). I've read several publications over the past year saying so (PPC, CCH, Thompson). Small example, a lot of executives at credit management companies (you know the kind, where you setup pymt plans, etc) have been receiving excessive wages and have had their non prof status revoked. Blah blah balh...

While it is true that a lot of money can be made, you'd have to find an entity that's been in existence for quite some time. For this thread though, the most important thing is to develop a solid business plan and stay solvent. After all, is this about making money or riding? I vote for the latter.