[kidwoo]

Haha, knew that. I just wanted to drive home the point that 1:1 doesn't hold as much weight as some people would leave you to believe.

Yeah I kind of realized I was babbling the obvious when I submitted that.


Still though.....I've had my rear shock performance change after a few lift served runs, but never my fork. I think they're pretty valid arguments.

 

[kidwoo]

I discount the claim that "switching from the current telescopic designs would give rise to so many new performance factors that doing so would create an adjustment period too severe to pursue the idea without a setback no one is willing to deal with" as a load.

And yet the concept has been presented and pretty well backed. It's cool man. Don't ever buy one and never let yourself be fooled by the insidious propaganda guys like socket, ohio, and chris are trying to dupe you with. They're just trying to sell secret prototypes they've been working on anyway.

Yes you could have a 1:1 ratio linkage fork, but where will you be placing the 16"+ damper? Does the obvious not present itself in unfolding the usefulness of that path, and correlate argument? The liability in that supposition is glaringly apparent.

Does the fact that current offerings are placed inside one of two structural members not present itself as glaringly apparent to YOU? Put it in the leading supports of a parallelogram.

 

[Huck Banzai]

And yet the concept has been presented and pretty well backed. It's cool man. Don't ever buy one and never let yourself be fooled by the insidious propaganda guys like socket, ohio, and chris are trying to dupe you with. They're just trying to sell secret prototypes they've been working on anyway.




Does the fact that current offerings are placed inside one of two structural members not present itself as glaringly apparent to YOU? Put it in the leading supports of a parallelogram.

WHERE is the concept 'pretty well backed' - if thats the case, wheres the product? Why are there 10 naysayers to 2.5 advocates in this thread alone; forget about all the thread bypassers, who - unlike me who dont feel like 'wasting their time' Putting that on status-quo or closed-mindedness is a cop out.

Disappointing; I asked you to reiterate arguments, you reiterated claims.

You have people creating all sorts of contraptions, pursuing all sorts of different ideas in MTB - BCD making 29" Carbon Downhill bikes is a good example. There is no reason that someone cant pursue this idea and, if possible, present a clearly superior or alternatively beneficial option - but no one has come anywhere near close to doing that. Nothing referenced is evidentiary of an improcvement, and despite your protestations no legitimate technical explanation has demonstrated anything convincing.

If someone makes a linkage fork that is superior, damn skippy I would be interested. But the reality is so many orders of magnitude away from that repeatedly demonstrated lofty goal.


Simple question:

"Does the fact that current offerings are placed inside one of two structural members not present itself as glaringly apparent to YOU? Put it in the leading supports of a parallelogram"

you made the statement, now explain the liability.

Pluses: Protected inside of structure; Use of structure in multiple roles. Reduced moving parts; Simpler, more durable design.

Minuses: ..........


Deflect your argument away from undermining me, and demonstrate somehow how the potential, or reality of a linkage fork is superior.

It will be more fragile, heavier, less durable, more complex. More tunable and asjustable? I have to concede that, its pretty obvious.

Liabilites so massively outweigh the benefits. If that changes, I am glad to investigate. I do not expect it to.

 

[Huck Banzai]

Yeah I kind of realized I was babbling the obvious when I submitted that.


Still though.....I've had my rear shock performance change after a few lift served runs, but never my fork. I think they're pretty valid arguments.

So you want to bring that can of worms to the front end of our bike too?

Which side of the coin are you on? Or just being the conscientious mediator.

 

[kidwoo]

Disappointing; I asked you to reiterate arguments, you reiterated claims.

Jesus christ.

Posts #41, 43, 46

Examples given on how small changes in moto designs cause rather severe adjustment periods.

So you want to bring that can of worms to the front end of our bike too?

Which side of the coin are you on?

Either you don't read or you're incapable of understanding. I really can't tell which.

 

[Steve M]

WHERE is the concept 'pretty well backed' - if thats the case, wheres the product? Why are there 10 naysayers to 2.5 advocates in this thread alone; forget about all the thread bypassers, who - unlike me who dont feel like 'wasting their time' Putting that on status-quo or closed-mindedness is a cop out.

Disappointing; I asked you to reiterate arguments, you reiterated claims.

You have people creating all sorts of contraptions, pursuing all sorts of different ideas in MTB - BCD making 29" Carbon Downhill bikes is a good example. There is no reason that someone cant pursue this idea and, if possible, present a clearly superior or alternatively beneficial option - but no one has come anywhere near close to doing that. Nothing referenced is evidentiary of an improcvement, and despite your protestations no legitimate technical explanation has demonstrated anything convincing.

If someone makes a linkage fork that is superior, damn skippy I would be interested. But the reality is so many orders of magnitude away from that repeatedly demonstrated lofty goal.


Simple question:

"Does the fact that current offerings are placed inside one of two structural members not present itself as glaringly apparent to YOU? Put it in the leading supports of a parallelogram"

you made the statement, now explain the liability.

Pluses: Protected inside of structure; Use of structure in multiple roles. Reduced moving parts; Simpler, more durable design.

Minuses: ..........


Deflect your argument away from undermining me, and demonstrate somehow how the potential, or reality of a linkage fork is superior.

It will be more fragile, heavier, less durable, more complex. More tunable and asjustable? I have to concede that, its pretty obvious.

Liabilites so massively outweigh the benefits. If that changes, I am glad to investigate. I do not expect it to.

I can see what you're saying - it's incredibly difficult to get all those things to work, however I think you're just stating "there is no god" when such a thing can basically never be proven. You can make a linkage fork light, you can make it durable, you can make it strong, you can give it better ride characteristics than a telescopic fork (axle path, trail adjustments, spring/damper characteristics), you can package it to fit a bicycle frame... but the challenge is to do ALL of those instead of just one or two. Anyone can build a linkage fork that has whatever degree of anti-dive, or make a lightweight linkage fork, or make it strong, whatever... but nobody YET has managed to tick all the boxes, and that is their biggest problem. However, if you want to dismiss it as an impossible task, then fine, but if that's the case then please just leave us delusionally optimistic nerds to discuss it amongst ourselves.

IMO the most difficult thing with linkage forks is the fact that you have to deal with the steering axis, which limits where you can actually place the links, unless you want to have a separable steering head like the Whyte bike someone linked to, which would require an integrated approach with the frame (which virtually nobody wants to buy). If there was an easy way to run longish trailing parallelogram links (opposite of nearly every linkage fork shown in this thread so far) then the task would become much easier. However, doing that would create pretty serious packaging issues due to interference with the frame itself, and building around that would create a fair bit of weight, yadda yadda. No one thing that can't be overcome but a lot of knock-on problems that may well make it not worthwhile.

 

[Huck Banzai]

Jesus christ.

Posts #41, 43, 46

Examples given on how small changes in moto designs cause rather severe adjustment periods.

#41:
In terms of control over axle path, linkage forks are superior.

- undisputable. Realized benefit? Debatable, but can be condeded

In terms of damping, rear dampers are as or more sophisticated than fork dampers.

- As stated, rear dampers MUST be more advanced do to their size limitations. Can this damping technology be applied to forks? yes. Why isnt it, because they dont suffer the limitations that necessitate them.

In terms of handling dynamics, especially braking, increasingly sophisticated dampers are trying to reduce brake dive. Using damping to control brake dive is no more optimal than using damping to control squat/anti-squat in the rear.

- As stated by many: there are always tradeoffs. The tradeoffs for the linkage fork are far more numerous and significant.




#43:

I still think that riders could not deal with the effective fork offset changing through the stroke. Well, unless it was forward but that would hurt performance. The problem is with bikes (MX and DH) the rider mass is such a large portion of the combined mass.
- This is a claim (note the "I still think that...") and undermines linkage forks if anything.

#46 is a new claim, and a repeat of a claim, and there is no explanation or technical detail present.

===========

Either you don't read or you're incapable of understanding. I really can't tell which.

I read extremely well and clealrly understand what is being stated. What you might be inferring, or misreading, I cannot address. These don't prove a point, or in any way demonstrate even the potential of an overall superior design. If you feel they do, then the lack of comprehension is in your lap.

When you cant make a point, or prove one, it is always the next best thing to attack your opposition. Past experience on RM led me to believe you were better than that.


Adjustable axle path and compression rates - YES these are good. In every other way the design is a liability. What other benefits? It is not going to be stronger, lighter, or easier to maintain, so speak up.

 

[kidwoo]

You really are incapable of following a logical train of thought.

What I said had been adequately addressed was your moto comparison. Namely 'why don't we see these things on motos?'

When I backed other posters' reasons, you kept saying that you didn't believe it. So then I put up the very post numbers where this was addressed.

And then you address everything in those posts BUT that subject.

Seriously dude. No one is insulting you because they don't have a case. You're catching shlt because you cannot follow an argument to save your life. I really can't state that any more clearly. I'm really sorry I've disappointed your internet opinion of me. But I really don't give a damn when it's someone who can't can't even follow a discussion.

EDIT: just leave it at this. Don't every buy one. I've never seen a good implementation of one either. But I'm still willing to accept that it could be done.

 

[Huck Banzai]

I can see what you're saying - it's incredibly difficult to get all those things to work, however I think you're just stating "there is no god" when such a thing can basically never be proven. You can make a linkage fork light, you can make it durable, you can make it strong, you can give it better ride characteristics than a telescopic fork (axle path, trail adjustments, spring/damper characteristics), you can package it to fit a bicycle frame... but the challenge is to do ALL of those instead of just one or two. Anyone can build a linkage fork that has whatever degree of anti-dive, or make a lightweight linkage fork, or make it strong, whatever... but nobody YET has managed to tick all the boxes, and that is their biggest problem. However, if you want to dismiss it as an impossible task, then fine, but if that's the case then please just leave us delusionally optimistic nerds to discuss it amongst ourselves.

IMO the most difficult thing with linkage forks is the fact that you have to deal with the steering axis, which limits where you can actually place the links, unless you want to have a separable steering head like the Whyte bike someone linked to, which would require an integrated approach with the frame (which virtually nobody wants to buy). If there was an easy way to run longish trailing parallelogram links (opposite of nearly every linkage fork shown in this thread so far) then the task would become much easier. However, doing that would create pretty serious packaging issues due to interference with the frame itself, and building around that would create a fair bit of weight, yadda yadda. No one thing that can't be overcome but a lot of knock-on problems that may well make it not worthwhile.

I dont dismiss it as an impossible task, just impractical as you eloquently stated. I am a huge doubter, I have ridden Girvin, Amp, and a Lawwill leader fork once (although I am a complete hack/cannot ride MX for jack - v little experience so no major judgement there) and none of them impressed, all of them were inferior IMO. Id be glad to be proven wrong, but when there is nothing on the table to prove the claims, then I have difficulty accepting them.

I ramble, no doubt; I post a lot as I have a lot of unrestricted access (I get to use dirty network unlike 'the users', at the moment im P2V'ing machines and migrating them to VM servers for remote users - not challenging or requring much interaction so extra extra posts.

No doubt Im a pain in the ass, but there is a neat feature (which I use) called IGNORE USER!! for those who find me troublesome or annoying!

 

[Huck Banzai]

You really are incapable of following a logical train of thought.

What I said had been adequately addressed was your moto comparison. Namely 'why don't we see these things on motos?'

I never made any 'moto comparison' except possibly misinferred from my quoted response to another post.

When I backed other posters' reasons, you kept saying that you didn't believe it. So then I put up the very post numbers where this was addressed.

You repeated what others had repeatedly claimed. Some of which is realistic, most of which is idealistic. I read and requoted those very posts, and there is no proof of concept or demonstration of claims.

Seriously dude. No one is insulting you because they don't have a case. You're catching shlt because you cannot follow an argument to save your life. I really can't state that any more clearly. I'm really sorry I've disappointed your internet opinion of me. But I really don't give a damn when it's someone who can't can't even follow a discussion.[/Quote[

EDIT: just leave it at this. Don't every buy one. I've never seen a good implementation of one either. But I'm still willing to accept that it could be done.

lack of comprehension is clearly your forte in this case - I at no point said that it couldn't be done. Are the words practical and pragmatic invisible to you?

I'm "catching ****"? from you, Ohio and to a small extent, Socket; have you read any of the other posts? I dont feel insulted, nor would I/do I care. If I cannot follow an argument, how is it that you are the one misquoting me, and claiming I said things taht I haven't. Im disappointed because I welcome intelligent discussion, which is not what you're bringing to the table right now.

I expressed and remain standing behind my major doubt. Linkage forks have been around since the early days of front suspension (on bicycles), yet are no more advanced now than then. They have suffered a similar fate amongst motorcycles, although my exposure to them is significantly limited

I could be wrong, I highly doubt it. This is a forum for discussion so I express my opinion, which is grounded in experience and (HERE IT IS IN BOLD, SO ITS EASIER TO SEE) PRAGMATISM

I probably wont ever buy one, but purely as a function of them not existing.

 

[kidwoo]

I never made any 'moto comparison' except possibly misinferred from my quoted response to another post.

aight

Fair enough.

My bad.

Bye now.

 

[Huck Banzai]

aight

Fair enough.

My bad.

Bye now.

I did not make any moto comparison.

No one gave ANY examples, they made claims.

I did not say it was impossible.

I did say it was impractical.


You didnt address any of that, and kept attributing statements to me which I did not make. I have no idea what you were reading, or why you 'take a side' while making 2 posts conceding faults, but not presenting advantages which is strange.

You stated simply what I said across pages when you said:

I've never seen a good implementation of one either. But I'm still willing to accept that it could be done.

Anyone is welcome to quote me up where I conflicted with that asessment. Doubter? Disbeliever? Clearly, but nowhere did I entirely dismiss it.

 

[Inclag]

Next time a guy call you a faggot, you get in that ass Larry! You immedietly get in that ass. You open that asshole up and you pull that asshole open, step inside, and spray paint “Larry Was Here”. F#ck his whole asshole up. Eat snicker bars, throw the wrapper on the ground. Then step out his ass – and you leave that asshole wide open so that motherf#cker knows you been there.

 

[Huck Banzai]

Next time a guy call you a faggot, you get in that ass Larry! You immedietly get in that ass. You open that asshole up and you pull that asshole open, step inside, and spray paint “Larry Was Here”. F#ck his whole asshole up. Eat snicker bars, throw the wrapper on the ground. Then step out his ass – and you leave that asshole wide open so that motherf#cker knows you been there.

ROFL

I will now bow out in respect to someone or other, as the bulk of the early participants were wise enough to do.

Enjoy your linky forks, good luck, and god speed.

 

[Kanye West]

What's the 'etc.' part?

Having to use a larger and potentially heavier cartridge I guess?

Larger amounts of oil. Demand for the damper to accommodate higher shaft speeds. Amplification of any small amounts of drag.

 

[kidwoo]

Larger amounts of oil. Demand for the damper to accommodate higher shaft speeds. Amplification of any small amounts of drag.

Does Foes know about this?

 

[slowitdown]

This is a forum for discussion so I express my opinion, which is grounded in experience and (HERE IT IS IN BOLD, SO ITS EASIER TO SEE) PRAGMATISM

you need to get over yourself. linkage forks are not some brilliant idea waiting for the mighty e-shill Huck Banzai to enlighten us all on the "secret, hidden" benefits.

if you're so danged pragmatic, you should have realized before you got into this thread that linkage forks are a dumb idea for a machine that is human propelled.

but go on, believe in "progress" like any ill-informed, illogical futurist would do. it's fun to read.

 

[Kanye West]

Does Foes know about this?

Nah, Foes doesn't know ANYTHING about stickiness or drag or any of that good stuff. Their stuff is perfect!

Their Curnutt shocks are frustrating. Those things could be VERY effective if they got rid of the "stick" it gets before the rebound stroke.

 

[TrueScotsman]

Right, this thread has got me thinking;
Because no manufacturer or race team is going to experiment with linkage forks for DH (for previously mentioned reasons-cost, time to develop, unfamiliararity), and they would require a ton of knowledge, resources and skill to make happen, why don't we as an online community try our hand at it. We could design a fork utilising the many varied and knowledgable (sometimes!) brains and resources on here. We could discuss optimal travel, trail, wheelpath, structural benefits, etc. This would be an open platform, free to use, design. We have engineers/designers/suspension geeks/pro racers who could make this happen.

What about it? A Monkey fork!

Many hands (brains) make light (linkage forks) work!!!!

 

[Inclag]

Right, this thread has got me thinking;
Because no manufacturer or race team is going to experiment with linkage forks for DH (for previously mentioned reasons-cost, time to develop, unfamiliararity), and they would require a ton of knowledge, resources and skill to make happen, why don't we as an online community try our hand at it. We could design a fork utilising the many varied and knowledgable (sometimes!) brains and resources on here. We could discuss optimal travel, trail, wheelpath, structural benefits, etc. This would be an open platform, free to use, design. We have engineers/designers/suspension geeks/pro racers who could make this happen.

What about it? A Monkey fork!

Many hands (brains) make light (linkage forks) work!!!!

Step 1: Open Source Linkage Fork
Step 2: ???
Step 3: Profit!

 

[TrueScotsman]

Step 1: Open Source Linkage Fork
Step 2: ???
Step 3: Profit!

Ha ha!
This wouldn't be about the money- more a $hits and giggles thing!

 

[binary visions]

Has anyone else been absolutely confused and befuddled by Huck Banzai's posts?

I seriously cannot tell WTF he is talking about, it's like a meandering train of thought that bounces from place to place, totally ignoring what he is actually responding to and doggedly plowing ahead towards a goal that I don't understand.

I don't think I've been this confused by a poster since we banned Drunk Ninja

 

[Huck Banzai]

you need to get over yourself. linkage forks are not some brilliant idea waiting for the mighty e-shill Huck Banzai to enlighten us all on the "secret, hidden" benefits.

if you're so danged pragmatic, you should have realized before you got into this thread that linkage forks are a dumb idea for a machine that is human propelled.

but go on, believe in "progress" like any ill-informed, illogical futurist would do. it's fun to read.

So now I'm arrogant? I wasnt promoting them, I was disdaining them, are you confused? Sarcasm?


hmm...

 

[Huck Banzai]

Has anyone else been absolutely confused and befuddled by Huck Banzai's posts?

I seriously cannot tell WTF he is talking about, it's like a meandering train of thought that bounces from place to place, totally ignoring what he is actually responding to and doggedly plowing ahead towards a goal that I don't understand.

I don't think I've been this confused by a poster since we banned Drunk Ninja

Oh, Im def ADD!

But if you cant make sense of what I typed, muddled syntax aside, I am reassured that much more that some of my audience is challenged. These are written conversations, not essays.

Its quite funny, I'm just rambling on the internet, others seem to be genuinely upset. I am all over the idea, some people are all over me, I guess I should be flattered.

 

[iRider]

WHERE is the concept 'pretty well backed' - if thats the case, wheres the product?

http://www.parafork.com/

 

[Huck Banzai]

http://www.parafork.com/

Bravo for actually putting something on the table.

How about some reviews? All the results I can find are in German.

 

[xy9ine]

put down your pencils, the solution is already here:

 

[Steve M]

Hooray, dependent suspension for bicycles! Just what the world's been waiting for!

 

[binary visions]

But if you cant make sense of what I typed, muddled syntax aside, I am reassured that much more that some of my audience is challenged. These are written conversations, not essays.

Uh huh. That's definitely how I'd describe ohio, kidwoo, socket, myself... "Challenged."

Probably shouldn't flatter yourself like that.

Its quite funny, I'm just rambling on the internet, others seem to be genuinely upset. I am all over the idea, some people are all over me, I guess I should be flattered.

I don't think anyone is genuinely upset. I think some people are genuinely laughing at you.

 

[jonKranked]

Has anyone else been absolutely confused and befuddled by Huck Banzai's posts?

I seriously cannot tell WTF he is talking about, it's like a meandering train of thought that bounces from place to place, totally ignoring what he is actually responding to and doggedly plowing ahead towards a goal that I don't understand.

I don't think I've been this confused by a poster since we banned Drunk Ninja

Drunken Ninja was banned?

 

[Huck Banzai]

Uh huh. That's definitely how I'd describe ohio, kidwoo, socket, myself... "Challenged."

Probably shouldn't flatter yourself like that.





I don't think anyone is genuinely upset. I think some people are genuinely laughing at you.

In this case, clearly challenged.

I wouldn't include Socket in that corral.

Laughing at me? Only if they cant read.

 

[binary visions]

Drunken Ninja was banned?

Drunken Ninja abused the Santa Bike program. He passed himself off as utterly flat broke and desperate for a bike.

Since he's got some medical issues, stinkyboy & a lot of other monkeys decided the next bike would go to him.

He proceeded to haggle over how the bike was configured, arguing about components and setup (on a free bike), complained loudly about the packing job when it was shipped to him (on free shipping), received it and promptly dropped a few hundred dollars into it (after claiming he was too poor to afford anything to ride on at all), and then it came out that he already had a bike, he just didn't think it was as nice as the free bike the community gave him. Keep in mind, these bikes usually go to poor kids in the community whose parents may have trouble buying dinner, let alone a bike.

I was so disgusted I promptly banned him. It's just appalling that people are capable of pulling such crap.

 

[EVRAC]

 

[kidwoo]

Drunken Ninja abused the Santa Bike program. He passed himself off as utterly flat broke and desperate for a bike.

Since he's got some medical issues, stinkyboy & a lot of other monkeys decided the next bike would go to him.

He proceeded to haggle over how the bike was configured, arguing about components and setup (on a free bike), complained loudly about the packing job when it was shipped to him (on free shipping), received it and promptly dropped a few hundred dollars into it (after claiming he was too poor to afford anything to ride on at all), and then it came out that he already had a bike, he just didn't think it was as nice as the free bike the community gave him. Keep in mind, these bikes usually go to poor kids in the community whose parents may have trouble buying dinner, let alone a bike.

I was so disgusted I promptly banned him. It's just appalling that people are capable of pulling such crap.

Wow. Having donated parts to that cause, I very respectfully ask that you send me his address so that I can go over to his house and beat the everloving shlt out of him. And get the bike back. And give it to someone who deserves it.

 

[Huck Banzai]

They definitely look weird, that wheel path looks very girvin like!

Any write ups? Thats what I am loooking for. Despite current impressions, I am curious, and if Im proven wrong - sooper! I just dont feel thats going to happen.


As for Drunken Ninja; yes I can be an eDouche, but that is some Douche without the e and really scummy.

 

[davep]

Drunken Ninja abused the Santa Bike program. He passed himself off as utterly flat broke and desperate for a bike.

Since he's got some medical issues, stinkyboy & a lot of other monkeys decided the next bike would go to him.

He proceeded to haggle over how the bike was configured, arguing about components and setup (on a free bike), complained loudly about the packing job when it was shipped to him (on free shipping), received it and promptly dropped a few hundred dollars into it (after claiming he was too poor to afford anything to ride on at all), and then it came out that he already had a bike, he just didn't think it was as nice as the free bike the community gave him. Keep in mind, these bikes usually go to poor kids in the community whose parents may have trouble buying dinner, let alone a bike.

I was so disgusted I promptly banned him. It's just appalling that people are capable of pulling such crap.

[OT]
Seemed quite obvious (to me) that he was lying with every post he made. From day one, I took him as a stupid stoner kid who told stories to sound cool. How is it that everyone missed his claims (not that they were very believable to begin with) to go out clubbing every night (in a very expensive town), being a super hip 'cool pot smoker'....yet he claimed to me Schizophrenic, unemployable, broke and stuck in a disfunctional health system that would no help him???

Epitome of a con artist. It would TRUELY suprise me if his claimed medical conditions had any basis.
[/OT]


It should also be quite apparent that HB is VERY much intrigued with the 'art' of the arguement. It does not really matter the subject matter, the debate (and self gratifying use of 'big words') itself is what he is after....

 

[binary visions]

In RE: the Drunken Ninja debacle, here is one of the threads on the subject. There was at least one more and a myriad of PMs/rep comments to go around:

http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=218931

Oh, and did I mention that he blew off the complaints about his scam because people only do charity to feel good about themselves, so everyone else is just as selfish?

woo, you can PM jdcamb, he visited...

 

[ohio]

Arguing that the major obstacle to their success and subsequent proliferation is familiarity with current products is inane and not an 'affirmative defense'.

Repeatedly reducing an argument that has nothing to do with familiarity to "familiarity" is an easy way feel like you're winning an argument. It's not helpful to anyone in this thread, and it certainly doesn't advance a discussion between us. My argument (for the, what, 3rd time?) is that the investment (of time, resources and money) associated with developing a drastically different technology on a competitive stage isn't worth it.

If you seek to undermine my case, present an application that demonstrates this superiority.

I already pointed to the Britten which was competitive entirely on the merits of it's superior chassis and handling.

BMW R1200GS is the best selling adventure motorcycle on earth, using a hybrid linkage fork, the Telelever. The R1200S/HP2 has proven a very competitive enduro racing platform, despite an underpowered air-cooled engine.
BMW is the most profitable motorcycle manufacturer on earth, using linkage forks for all of their large displacement bikes with the exception of the single one (S1000RR) that needed to attract top racers and tuners and therefore couldn't afford to spend 2 seasons as uncompetitive. The true Hossack design on the K bikes, the Duolever, garners universally positive reviews from owners and magazine reviews, especially considering the simplicity of the damper supporting it.

The Bimota Tesi 3D is universally lauded for it's incredible handling, and weighs in at 370lbs (curb) compared to 416lbs for the Ducati Monster 1100S, the closest conventional equivalent and a bike already considered extremely light.

You can continue to shadowbox with arguments that don't exist, or you can simply acknowledge that:
a) linkage designs have merits, but
b) it would require more investment to realize them than most manufacturers are willing to spend...
c) ... especially in light of the refinement of telescopic forks at this point

 

[ohio]

Yes you could have a 1:1 ratio linkage fork, but where will you be placing the 16"+ damper?

The BMW Telelever is a linkage design with a 1:1 damper. As mentioned above it is used on the best-selling adventure moto on the planet.

(I won't argue it is the BEST adventure moto, just the best selling. Thanks, Ewan)

 

[Huck Banzai]

It should also be quite apparent that HB is VERY much intrigued with the 'art' of the arguement. It does not really matter the subject matter, the debate (and self gratifying use of 'big words') itself is what he is after....

I disagree with the big words part, if I use them its incidental.

Cant disagree with the argumentative assessment; I do, and love to, get into it with people all the time. Sometimes I am effective, sometimes (!) I am very ineffective. Effective meaning affecting the argument versus 'winning' the argument; winning isn't required.

This thread is finally on track with actual examples, so cheers to that!

@ OHIO: regarding your points:

a) is indisputable; linkage forks do have desirable qualities.

b) Sound statement; however, regarding mountain bike application, I would add that *I BELIEVE* the potential for linkage forks is less than the potential of telescopic forks ultimately as a practical concern in that the design would have to compromise too significantly in a given category (Weight, Durability, Reliability, Damping performance); I believe the compromises suffered by the telescopic fork would be less in comparison, resulting in a practically superior implementation.

c) relates to b, and with regards to competition, as you pointed out may be an significant obstacle to adoption in that scenario, but clearly (per your Moto examples) is in use so the potential is there for expanded application; and given some of your examples and comments, would make sense to 'trickle up' if those comments are correct. (EG - Bimota Tesi)

--
With regards to MTB; I am certainly a 'doubting thomas' mostly with concern to scale. I dont believe a competitive model can be achieved without significant compromise.
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Now, this is my opinion based on my experience with MTB forks, previous discussions about linkage forks and application, and the feedback of friends/colleagues/father(who is an engineer, albeit 'old school') and not just a casual dismissal.