Quantcast

Little bike wheel choices - Haven vs. TRS+

Discussion in 'Downhill & Freeride' started by ZHendo, Jan 23, 2014.

  1. ZHendo

    ZHendo Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    6 / 39
    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2006
    Messages:
    1,563
    Location:
    PNW
    I'm nearly done building my new little bike, but I need some help choosing the final part: wheels. Both the e13 TRS+ and Easton Haven wheels have great reviews and I have access to both, but I can't decide which to run. My new bike is a Banshee Spitfire v2, and I'm setting it up with oh-so-trendy 650b. Any of you have any opinions on these particular wheels? Any carry over characteristics from their larger siblings (Havoc and LG1+)? I come from a DH background so I will be putting these wheels through the ringer.
     

    Please register to disable this ad.

  2. Uncle Cliffy

    Uncle Cliffy Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    2 / 42
    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2008
    Messages:
    4,530
    Location:
    Southern Oregon
    Hard comparison. I've had carbon Havens, and a set of new Havocs for a while now. I've dinged the Havocs a little, and I ride on pretty smooth trails. I must've found one of those rock-things I keep hearing about. ;)

    I choose the Havens for the simple fact you don't need to run tape for tubeless. Not a huge deal, but one less thing (mess) to deal with.
     
  3. dhbrigade

    dhbrigade Chimp

    Rep/Likes:
    2 / 2
    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2006
    Messages:
    89
    None of them. Within that price region you get a top of the line custom wheelset. Build up for you an your riding style.

    Pros for custom:
    - better durability
    - cheaper
    - lighter
    - better to maintain
    - higher resale value as you can choose widely from the best parts out there (except carbon rims ;)).

    Honestly, never really understood why people go for system wheels...
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  4. csermonet

    csermonet Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    8 / 121
    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2010
    Messages:
    936
    Couldnt have said it better. DT Swiss ex500 rims, which are pretty much a standard for all mountain riding, can be had on ebay for $50 a piece. Then choose your hubs of choice, and voila, perfect wheelset. If you want to run tubeless you will have to do ghetto, but the ex500 are a proven candidate for ghetto tubeless. Numerous riding buddies use this setup, and I am currently building a little bike wheelset with them. Much cheaper and better than off the shelf systems
     
  5. ZHendo

    ZHendo Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    6 / 39
    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2006
    Messages:
    1,563
    Location:
    PNW
    I know that "system wheels" are not as ideal as custom, but in this particular scenario I am saving a boatload of money by going with either of these particular wheelsets due to a work connection. I also don't have access to a truing stand anymore, so building my own isn't in the cards unless I drop $200 on a decent stand.
     
  6. ZHendo

    ZHendo Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    6 / 39
    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2006
    Messages:
    1,563
    Location:
    PNW
    Adding another wheelset to the mix as the least expensive, but still comparable, option: Stans Flow EX rims on Hope Pro 2 EVOs
     
  7. mattmatt86

    mattmatt86 Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    6 / 10
    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2005
    Messages:
    5,390
    Location:
    Bleedmore, Murderland
    I've had the TRS+ for about a year and bought them over other wheels because of the hubs. I actually wasn't looking for the complete wheelset, I was going to get the hubs and build a set myself but came across a deal I couldn't pass up. I would say the Haven might have the upper hand for the rims because of the ease of tubeless setup, but that can also mean replacing a spoke could be more difficult. But when it comes to the Hubs the TRS+ takes it hands down. The engagement is awesome, serviceability is great and the wide hub flange means there is less spoke windup, shorter spokes, less spoke stress and better triangulation. All of which makes the wheels incredibly stiff, responsive, and fast. I have the 29er wheels and they transformed the bike, the bike accelerates faster than some 26" bikes I've owned. I've heard a few horror stories about the Easton hubs, not sure if they were first run issues but there was enough bad stories to turn me off.
     
  8. blindboxx2334

    blindboxx2334 Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    11 / 100
    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2013
    Messages:
    1,347
    Location:
    Wets Coast
    if you have patience and some zip ties, you dont need a truing stand :)
    (with that said, i need to buy one.. again. makes it much easier)
     
  9. dump

    dump Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    11 / 208
    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2001
    Messages:
    5,426
    Even the cheap stands will build good wheels. A fully custom wheelset + $200 for an expensive stand and you still come out ahead of those options... including the reasons mentioned by dhbrigade.
     
  10. CBJ

    CBJ Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    92 / 1,197
    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2002
    Messages:
    10,909
    Location:
    Copenhagen, Denmark
    I am going for the TRS+ (also 650b) for the same reason as mentioned above. Its not so much a system wheel as you can buy everything on its own unlike some Mavic stuff. Notice that there are some changes in 2014 as there is now a TSRr and TSR+ where the TSRr are more like the previous TSR+
     
    #10 -   Jan 24, 2014
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2014
  11. Tomasz

    Tomasz Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    0 / 0
    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2012
    Messages:
    342
    Location:
    Whistla
    Was under the impression that system wheels were typically quite a bit lighter than customs?

    Of course, I'm only familiar with DH wheelsets. Deemax Ultimates, at 1960g per set, are quite a bit lighter than any alu customs I've run across.
     
    #11 -   Jan 24, 2014
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2014
  12. ZHendo

    ZHendo Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    6 / 39
    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2006
    Messages:
    1,563
    Location:
    PNW
    Yep - the new TRS+ is $400 cheaper than the TRSr though.
     
  13. Uncle Cliffy

    Uncle Cliffy Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    2 / 42
    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2008
    Messages:
    4,530
    Location:
    Southern Oregon
    They don't make the ex500 in 27.5.
     
  14. csermonet

    csermonet Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    8 / 121
    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2010
    Messages:
    936
    what's that?
     
  15. dhbrigade

    dhbrigade Chimp

    Rep/Likes:
    2 / 2
    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2006
    Messages:
    89
    With Tune King MK / Kong 150 / ZTR Flow / DT Comp / brass nipples in 32 you come in around 1748g including rim tape.


    I'm not the biggest fan of DT rims, so I would go for the ZTR Arch Ex 650B (420g) or, if you would go bullet proof, Flow EX 650B (530g).
     
  16. TWeerts

    TWeerts Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    0 / 0
    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2007
    Messages:
    473
    Location:
    The Area Bay
    dont forget hope makes wheelsets now

    http://www.hopetech.com/page.aspx?itemID=SPG502

    DT swiss makes the ex471 in 650b. but they are 28h

    ZHendo - id build you a wheelset if you want (and if you trust me enough; im working at a shop in corvallis, or these days)
     
    #16 -   Jan 26, 2014
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2014
  17. Kurt_80

    Kurt_80 Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    10 / 150
    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2016
    Messages:
    196
    Location:
    Perth, WA.
    Bit of a gravedig here... did anyone end up getting the Easton Havens? Any long term reviews? I found a new set for less than $1000, so I'm wondering what they're like (with the bearing upgrade) on a 26 hardtail. Hoping that 24 spokes will be a bit more forgiving than 32.

    Cheers.
     
  18. slyfink

    slyfink Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    103 / 1,548
    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2008
    Messages:
    5,768
    Location:
    Ottawa, Canada
    I'm no expert in wheel building, but there's a bunch of things in your question that made alarm bells sound.

    I would think 24 spokes on a hardtail is a baaaaaaad idea. You are transmitting a lot more force to the wheel in a hardtail. I would think 24 spokes is bad for two main reasons: each spoke will be dealing with a lot more force, and if a spoke breaks, your wheel will be unrideable as the other spokes will pull it waaaay out of true.

    For $1000 I can't imagine you couldn't build a strong, light custom wheelset. Hope Pro 2s will run you what... $500 at full MSRP? Arch Mk3 rims are $100 a piece? Decent spokes are what, $50 a wheel (for double butted)? That puts you under a grand, even with labour to build it. And it's a solid wheel. The double butted spokes will ensure a degree of compliance (or should I say resilience)...

    Why you would be looking at "system" wheelsets that are 4 years old, in the $1000 price range, is beyond me. If you can even find them in 26".
     
    • Like Like x 2
  19. Jm_

    Jm_ Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    155 / 1,348
    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2002
    Messages:
    8,923
    Location:
    AK
    Disappoint, was hoping to see an entirely CNCed wheel.

    Unless the Haven/TRS wheels are like $1000 or less, I'd always build up some LB/Nextie rims on my choice of hubs, spokes and nipples. Far cheaper and much better because I can choose the exact rim profile I want, hubs I want, etc.
     
  20. Kurt_80

    Kurt_80 Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    10 / 150
    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2016
    Messages:
    196
    Location:
    Perth, WA.
    Yeah, it's a bit of a long shot, but there are a few factors that piqued my interest. The weight (1450g), the strength, the internal width (21mm, currently running 2.35 DHFs on a set of 823s) and the bling (i.e. carbon)

    Originally, I also thought that 24 spokes would be too little, but from both the reviews I've read and some other replies (32h carbons are too stiff on a hardtail), I am a little more open minded. TBH, my biggest concern would be the hubs. Easton hubs are pretty meh, apparently.

    You are right though, for a few hundred dollars less and a few (two maybe) hundred grams more, there are other options.
     
  21. Kurt_80

    Kurt_80 Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    10 / 150
    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2016
    Messages:
    196
    Location:
    Perth, WA.
    Eastons are $1000 shipped. I was originally looking at LB (have them on the DH bike), but they don't build wheelsets with lower spoke counts in DT Swiss (Hope only) AND their AM rim is 27mm internal.
     
  22. Kurt_80

    Kurt_80 Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    10 / 150
    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2016
    Messages:
    196
    Location:
    Perth, WA.
    Alternatively, anyone got any experience on SRAm Roams, in carbon?
     
  23. Jm_

    Jm_ Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    155 / 1,348
    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2002
    Messages:
    8,923
    Location:
    AK
    Um, no? They got all kinds of sizes from 45 internal down to 22. Their only AM size is not 27.

    https://www.lightbicycle.com/carbon-mountain-bike/carbon-mountain-bike-rim/650B

    They build 28H hubs and rims, maybe less if you select the "Custom wheelbuild" option.

    $1000 is a decent price though for what you are discussing, rather than the usual wildly overpriced system-wheels that cost in the thousands.
     
    #23 -   Feb 26, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2018
    • Like Like x 1
  24. slyfink

    slyfink Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    103 / 1,548
    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2008
    Messages:
    5,768
    Location:
    Ottawa, Canada
    I didn't realize you were after carbon rims... Unless you are building up an xc-race bike, I'd be inclined to stay away from carbon. Why pay the premium for no appreciable weight loss?

    In 26", Arch Crest MK3 rims are 326g at 23mm internal width. Arch MK3 are 406g at 26mm internal. Then, you don't have to worry about crappy hubs, or your wheel going out of true if your spokes break!

    In 26", the Light Bike rims are 360g for the 23mm internal width rims and 385g for the 27mm internal width (give or take 15g). The Arch rims in 23mm are actually lighter, and with the margin of error on the 27mm, are within 4g.

    Honestly, with carbon rim manufacturers falling over themselves to introduce "compliance" back into the "ride feel" of the rims, I really don't understand people who buy them. I guess there's the whole "precision" thing, but you're riding a hardtail already... it's pretty darn precise as is, and you already get lots of "ride feel" directly from the bike.

    But yeah, that's just like, my opinion man... so take it fwiw! happy wheel hunting!
     
    • Like Like x 2
  25. Gary

    Gary "S" is for "neo-luddite"

    Rep/Likes:
    47 / 714
    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    2,691
    Location:
    UK

    ha ha.

    Seriously?

    GTFO
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  26. iRider

    iRider Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    23 / 233
    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2008
    Messages:
    1,873
    I think the offer you have is still too high considering the wheel size and known reliability issues. I got a nearly new Easton Haven Carbon front wheel with tire for € 250. It is plenty stiff for my needs, feels more like a solid DH wheel. If calculated back, the rim should be 380-390 g, which is light also considering that it doesn't need tubeless tape.
    Careful: the front hub is either 20 mm or 15 mm specific.
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  27. Gallain

    Gallain Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    17 / 43
    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2001
    Messages:
    182
    Location:
    Sweden
    My usual suggestion with wheels is to go with something that uses common spokes, bearings and preferably a common rim.
    That way when you travel somewhere with your bike you can always get parts, sometimes you can be out riding again after lunch...

    Havens a very prone to problems be warned.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  28. HAB

    HAB Chelsea from Seattle

    Rep/Likes:
    81 / 818
    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2007
    Messages:
    10,494
    Location:
    Seattle
    I ran an old pair of 32h 26" Enves on one of my hardtails for a bit. They absolutely made ride quality worse as compared to the aluminum rims that I normally use.
     
  29. Jm_

    Jm_ Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    155 / 1,348
    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2002
    Messages:
    8,923
    Location:
    AK
    Wheels are for being stiff and not folding over/flexing when I push into berms and turns.

    Tires are for lowering the pressure for traction.

    Suspension is for moar traction.
     
  30. Gary

    Gary "S" is for "neo-luddite"

    Rep/Likes:
    47 / 714
    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    2,691
    Location:
    UK
    That's your personal opinion and you're absolutely enitled to it. Unfortunately I have absolutely no idea how or where you rode your hardtail nevermind what you consider absolutely perfect ride quality from a hardtail or a rim to be. Thanks for sharing though.
     
  31. HAB

    HAB Chelsea from Seattle

    Rep/Likes:
    81 / 818
    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2007
    Messages:
    10,494
    Location:
    Seattle
    To be more specific, they felt noticeably more harsh over high speed chattery bumps, like root sections. The bike's a BTR Ranger, and I come from a DH background and mostly ride it on fairly raw trails, many of which have 2-3k feet of vertical per lap. No plus size tires or any of that bullshit, and tire pressures in the low to mid 30s to stand up to trying to go fast and hitting things hard on a bike with not much suspension.

    I'm not saying you can't ride carbon rims on a hardtail, or anything nearly that absolute, but they do make a difference, and weren't my preference on the hardtail.
     
    #31 -   Feb 26, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2018
    • Useful Useful x 1
  32. Kurt_80

    Kurt_80 Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    10 / 150
    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2016
    Messages:
    196
    Location:
    Perth, WA.
    Maybe it was the person I got the email reply from? They told me the skinnier internal widths are not for AM/End/Trail/whatever... XC only, and recommended I try the wider rims like the 27. Also, I'm looking for 26, sorry if I didn't specify.
     
  33. Jm_

    Jm_ Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    155 / 1,348
    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2002
    Messages:
    8,923
    Location:
    AK
    One of the entire reasons I ride carbon rims is I can push harder into berms and turns without experiencing flex that ultimately takes you off line and costs you speed. This is where I notice the difference between wheel flex of carbon and aluminum. Some wider and beefier aluminum rims are a bit better, but still nothing like aluminum and when you get to the bigger wheel sizes (diameter), they difference is even bigger (rims that flex and cause tire rub on the stays vs. ones that do not). Designing in "flex" to wheels would be the opposite of this and wheels are not the place to design in compliance IME.
     
  34. Kurt_80

    Kurt_80 Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    10 / 150
    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2016
    Messages:
    196
    Location:
    Perth, WA.
    Are you talking FS or HT here?
     
  35. Jm_

    Jm_ Turbo Monkey

    Rep/Likes:
    155 / 1,348
    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2002
    Messages:
    8,923
    Location:
    AK
    Both really, although I raced on tiny 2.2 tires when I had my hardtail setup rigid and that was a F-ing disaster, I just got pounded. Mainly I was thinking that the races were going to be on the "flow trails" since that was the area it was being held, but the race-organizers are evil and included all kinds of rooty stuff in between and only used short portions of these trails, so I ended up getting pounded bad. The next year I got a front fork for it, but it was a shitty fox performance with no freaking compression damping, only the horrible 3-position switch, so I had to run it over-pressurized to have any decent compliance which still made it somewhat jackhammer on the descents. At least with this, I was able to keep my speed up on the descents though, definitely a good bit better. I never felt like it was the wheels (rims) that were causing the problems, just going really fast over rough terrain. I was at the crossroads where I was thinking of updating the damper in the fork. I also wanted an FS to do some of the longer 30-100 mile races and not be pounded to hell, because running slightly fat tires only really works to absorb bumps in a very narrow speed range. Go faster and it's a jackhammer, regardless of your rims. So I got a nice XC FS bike for the race season last year and I have to say, it was everything I was hoping for. I didn't hate riding my bike. Hardtails have their place, if I just wanted to put down the fastest possible time on the shorter races, that'd be the way, but my wrists and some other parts can no longer take the beating at that level for long and the reduction in enjoyment isn't worth it anymore. All 3 of these setups had the same 30mm/25i rims that I replaced several times.

    But regardless, I love how the carbon rims can allow me to carry much more speed through the turns when I push hard, they stay on line much better. For the width and strength, they are obviously lighter, but that's only one part of the reason I like em.
     
    #35 -   Feb 26, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2018
    • Like Like x 1
  36. HAB

    HAB Chelsea from Seattle

    Rep/Likes:
    81 / 818
    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2007
    Messages:
    10,494
    Location:
    Seattle
    I'm with you on cornering, and I like those same Enve wheels on my FS all mountain/Enduro/whatever you want to call it bike. It just wasn't worth the extra pounding on the hardtail. I'm also not doing anything that even vaguely resembles XC racing, so I think we're talking about pretty hugely different use cases. People sometimes push DH bikes up at the place I ride the hardtail most often. It's definitely not the bike I'd choose to go as fast as possible on those trails against a clock. I ride it because it's fun.
     
    • Like Like x 1