[narlus]

Originally posted by Damn True
Ahh yer right. We dont have rocks and stuff out here. It' all flat. We just ride fire-roads.

It's a whole different deal. I mean you guys in NE have such huge mountains and all.....and poor us out here with our piddlin little Sierra Nevada range and Coast Range.

hey DT, no need to crawl into defense position, we know what it's like out there.

no seriously, i know you have some super tech stuff, but FROM WHAT I HAVE PERSONALLY RIDDEN in CA, i didn't find much if any of that when riding in for a week in tahoe (aside from a small scree pile on the rim trail north of tahoe city, the most rocks we found was out near bowman lakes. toad's had some big rocks but nothing where clearance was an issue).

and marin? please!

i've got a good friend who just moved to the san jose/sunnyvale area a few months ago. give me yr details so he can get in touch w/ you and find the goods out there.

you know what? durango's got some big mountains too. for most part those trails were buff like my 2 y/o's bottom. (I missed Haflin Creek).

btw, e13 makes a 3 ring guide too, w/ bashguard. nah, not for me. DRS or bust! (actually, i'd probably just use a supercharger bashguard on a 2 ring setup rather than the DRS).

 

[Damn True]

http://www.sierranevadaphotos.com/geography/high_peaks.html

http://www.sierranevadaphotos.com/geography/sierra_crest.asp

 

[MtnBikerNJ]

i'm gonna have to chime in on the Hollowpoint ride. I have one and love it. It takes a little while to get dialed, but once it does its a really nice ride and does climb well (and from what stosh's comments are, its even better with the 5th element air shock). I have the Float AVA that came with mine (on the Expert). I might replace the shock next year, but i'm happy enough with the ride that its staying on for this year.

As for the geometry, I like it better than my gary fisher tassajara hardtail, because it climbs better and the steering is a little quicker without being too quick (like my old trek was). I did buy a shorter stem than the one that came with it though. I have a 90mm now and like it better. I have also (only very breifly) ridden a friends Titus locomoto (which I didn't particularly like - suspension was a little harsh although my friend is a good 45 pounds lighter than I - and steering was a little too quick for my taste), as well as a friends Specialized Enduro. I liked the ride of the enduro (from the 2 minutes I rode it) and it was a close second when I was buying a bike, although the suspension isn't as "plush" as the Hollowpoint.

oh, and yea, its hard to find dealers that stock them. most IH dealers carry the lower end line. I eventually just ordered mine based on what several friends suggested (it was/is my first FS bike)

I Don't know if Weagle is a genious though. I've never met him> He does seem like a nice guy though (through email), and I have to say that Ironhorse (as a company) has had GREAT customer service in dealing with any of the issues I've had (from what I hear, same for other people too). They even replaced several of the 'monkeys frames because of a manufacturing flaw, and didn't ask for the old frames back! (Speaking of which, I'll sell you my used '03 Expert frame for cheap!). They also replaced the linkage with the newer design which came out in mid-year last year, just because I guess they thought we'd like the way it rode better.

Anyway, the Hollowpoint gets my vote...

 

[stosh]

I would like to agree with MtnBikerNJ's comments.

Also there were a few minor glitches that they ironed out this year. They added some clearance to the rear tire and I was pretty sure they added some extra bracing to the rear triangle.

The bike was weighed at 27lbs when they sent it to me so it's pretty light.

This was also my first FS bike and I like it a lot but have little to compare it to.

 

[næstep]

Originally posted by MMcG
Narlus - I just sent you an email about future plans for a certain east coast bike company that I think will interest you.

Also, go to MTBR forums and under the IH forum there is a post by a guy by the name of FAenatic or something like that where he posts detailed photos of the improvements IH made to the Hollowpoint from 2003 to 2004.

Damn you guys are loud -- my ears were burning and I had to poke my head in.

Here's a link to the pictures & thread you're talking about. It shows the changes between the '03 and the '04 bikes. Good stuff, but my '03 Hollowpoint Expert is holding up just fine all the same and I doubt the ride is any different between the two model years.

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=12000

Love the bike and the best way I can sum it up is that I've slowly been demoing these various other designs that rely on SPV shocks for pedaling stability, and each time I come back appreciating how alive my HP feels. I'm running a caveman-simple Cane Creek AD12 on mine and the suspension is 100% alive for everything from the smallest pebble to the biggest XC hit I dare take. But cranking up a hill the pedaling results in a minimum of bob, and when standing up and mashing the rear suspension stays rock solid. Any suspension movement I do get results in absolutely zero kickback/feedback with the exception of a really deep hit (this is where Dave Weagle really did his homework to make the dw-link shine).

These '04 Hollowpoints are coming with 5th Elements & Manitou Swingers but I'm convinced it's due to marketing/consumer demand, and the shock setup recommendations I've seen seem to back that up -- the SPV thresholds for the Hollowpoint are to be set extremely low, at the point where you wonder why they're even there in the first place.

About the biggest detractors I can come up with is the reduced tire clearance on my '03 (looks like the '04 bikes improved this with the new triangle; see my post I linked to) and rear shock sag is critical, otherwise the bike pedals like poo. And this means you can't get away with airing it down for an extra cushy ride some days, or pumping it up a bit extra for a road ride.

But I like where Iron Horse is going with this design, I like the tangable improvements they made this year, and I like their customer service and presence (and Dave Weagle's presence) on these forums.

 

[Repack]

I like the ones you listed, but I am actually giving consideration to dropping my Bomber back down from 5 to 4". Having the DH bike to drop stuff with, I satrted to wish that I had a more efficient trail bike. I have an Enduro, and like 4-5 in the rear, but am leaning towards 4" in front for trail riding around greater-Boston. Mainly, I think it has to do with my center of gravity. WIth all of the short/steep uphills around, I would like to be able to keep my weight over the front more.
I have been very happy w/ FSR bikes.

Sounds like you are coming home soon?

 

[spincrazy]

None of the bikes mentioned in this thread pedal better or have a more active suspension than the SINGLE pivot Locomoto. I like the new Enduros too, but the TT is too short and their first, middle and last names are BOB, plus, they're noisy. Hollowpoints are nice and I'd consider a 5 spot if someone stole my ride, but that's about it.

 

[Damn True]

That single pivot is plenty active until you get on the brakes, and then BA-BAM! Instant hardtail.

The Enduro only bob's if:

a) you have your shock set up improperly
b) you pedal in squares

 

[fonseca]

Originally posted by Damn True
http://www.sierranevadaphotos.com/geography/high_peaks.html

http://www.sierranevadaphotos.com/geography/sierra_crest.asp

It must be nice having such smooth fireroads to get to the top of those high peaks.

I wouldn't put a big ring on my bike either. Getting rid of it in favor of a bashguard that clears 36t or less really improves clearance. I rarely use my 34t middle ring and smallest 2-3 cogs as it is. I don't think most "trail riders" need taller gears for typical east coast singletrack.

 

[Sir_Crackien]

i would say take a serious look at the vt. light. fairly long travel but doesn't fell like it is in a good way. climb great. you feel to travel when you hit something unexpectedly. those are the major good points. the only bad thing possibly is that you have to run a 5-6" fork to make if feel good. it feels really twichy with a shorter fork!

the frame is strong don't worry about that. the giant team races it 4X!

 

[syadasti]

Originally posted by Damn True
That single pivot is plenty active until you get on the brakes, and then BA-BAM! Instant hardtail.

The Enduro only bob's if:

a) you have your shock set up improperly
b) you pedal in squares

You are kidding yourself. I haven't ridden a FS bike yet that does not bob, especially trail bikes (or ones with even more travel). Just ride a HT for a few days and then get back on your FS bike - its completely obvious - don't let the marketing brainwash you. I have extensive experience on the Hollowpoint, Enduro (and other horst link bikes - BTW the older enduros (say 2000 and earlier if I recall right) had suspension geometry better tuned for pedaling...)

As far as the various designs, I like the Hollowpoint/DW-link design most as far as activeness vs. pedaling goes. The Enduro/Horst-link is pretty close in pedaling, not quite as plush, and not quite as stiff in the rear chassis-wise. The Locomoto/low single pivot is just as active as the Enduro when not braking and stiffens slightly when braking (it doesn't lock out like you imply plus it sinks down in its travel providing the rider with greater stability on steep/sketchy terrain), its frame stiffer than either (haven't ridden the 04 HP though), and is much lighter (plus it has much nicer geometry, very close to a HT).

The only things I desire to be improved on the Locomoto's are more tire clearance, more travel (adjustable 4-6" maybe? - I have a feeling there will be a ton of light FR bikes at Interbike this year w/Nixons, Pikes, etc...), and maybe a slightly beefier rear with slightly larger bearings and/or spaced wider apart.

Overall after riding all these bikes, I've come to the conclusion that at least for trail bikes - a low monopivot bike with a SPV/Propedal/Etc... shock cannot be beat - the light weight and stiffness out weigh the small gains you get by additional activeness under braking or suspension rate changes (which can be made on single pivots with linkages if desired).

P.S. I don't pedal in squares - I can sprint out of the saddle on a road bike on rollers...

 

[spincrazy]

Originally posted by syadasti
You are kidding yourself. I haven't ridden a FS bike yet that does not bob, especially trail bikes (or ones with even more travel). Just ride a HT for a few days and then get back on your FS bike - its completely obivous - don't let the marketing brainwash you. I have extensive experience on the Hollowpoint, Enduro (and other horst link bikes - BTW the older enduros (say 2000 and earlier if I recall right) had suspension geometry better tuned for pedaling...

As far as the various designs, I like the DW-link design most as far as activeness/pedaling goes. The Enduro is pretty close, but not quite as stiff in the rear. The Locomoto is just as active when not braking and stiffens slightly when braking (it doesn't lock out though like you imply), its frame stiffer than either (haven't ridden the 04 HP though), and is much lighter (plus it has much nicer geometry, very close to a HT). The only things I desire to be improved on the locomoto's are more tire clearance, more travel (6" maybe? - I have a feeling there will be a ton of light FR bikes at Interbike this year w/Nixons, Reba's, etc...), and maybe a slightly beefier rear.

Overall after riding all these bikes, I've come to the conclusion that at least for trail bikes - a low monopivot bike with a SPV/Propedal/Etc... shock cannot be beat - the light weight and stiffness out weigh the small gains you get by additional activeness under braking.

And furthermore, get off the damn brakes. If you're going downhill over rocky, bumpy terrain and on the brakes hard, it serves you right.

 

[Skookum]

This thread is getting as bad as the political forum. haha......

i think Acadian explained it to me best a while back. Something about that it didn't matter what the bike was that his sponsor put him on, that it was all about the rider.

There are pro's and con's to all bikes, but each one can be minimilized by knowing the habits of the bike. There is no such thing as the "perfect" trail bike yet, but for us who've been riding for a few years, hasn't it come a hell of a long way? *reflect*

 

[JRogers]

Originally posted by Skookum
This thread is getting as bad as the political forum. haha......

i think Acadian explained it to me best a while back. Something about that it didn't matter what the bike was that his sponsor put him on, that it was all about the rider.

There are pro's and con's to all bikes, but each one can be minimilized by knowing the habits of the bike. There is no such thing as the "perfect" trail bike yet, but for us who've been riding for a few years, hasn't it come a hell of a long way? *reflect*

True on all counts. IMO, there are almost no "bad" bikes still out there. Lord knows in the early and mid 90s there were plenty. Any of the bikes mentioned will perform well if set up right.

Also, as for the gearing discussion going on here, I really don't see how with a sub 30 lb bike you cannot want at the very least a 36T. I rode today on my VT and without the 42T on there, it would be a pain. Partially, it's because I have to ride on the road quite a bit but I use it on trails as well. I can't get any power sprinting in a 32. If I sprint on the road or a hard, flat trail, I basically have to use the biggest gear or close to it (42-12 I think). Clearance is nice but I'd prefer to have the gearing on a lighter bike.

 

[Skookum]

Originally posted by JRogers

Also, as for the gearing discussion going on here, I really don't see how with a sub 30 lb bike you cannot want at the very least a 36T.

You know i so very rarely used them myself. I always viewed them as a smaller bash ring or the teeth as something to give me a little more oomph when i got stalled over a big log. Within a few months of riding it didn't matter what kind of ring i was using i'd knock and grind the teeth on the two sides down to nothing where i couldn't really use it anyways. On my newest bike i decided to just avoid the inevitable and put a bash guard on. I guess i'll get beat by your big gear on the forest road descents and i'll miss the hard grinding sound a ring makes versus a thud of a bash ring on rocks, but i'll live thru it.

 

[ArmOnFire]

Heard on a local trail on a recent ride......

Me=Gary Fisher Cake
Riding buddy=Spec. Enduro

RB=how come when you pedal your rear suspension only activates when there are bumps?

Me=because my bike has a SPV rear shock

RB=i have to manually lockout my shock, this sucks

That's my feeble attempt at a screenplay...

Just got a GF Cake 2 dlx, the bike rocks for aggresive XC, planning on racing a few 24 hour events. I did alot of research and test riding, and this bike was the right fit for me all around (ride quality, climbing , descending, cost, parts spec., etc.).
That's my $0.02, it is a whole new game coming from a XC race weight hardtail (3" fork).

 

[syadasti]

Originally posted by ArmOnFire
Heard on a local trail on a recent ride......

Me=Gary Fisher Cake
Riding buddy=Spec. Enduro

Has he asked you yet how you like your new Nicolai Saturn yet

Its such a blatant copy (not that that isn't a bad thing)

Like the asym stays on the GF, lower price and extra travel though

 

[Toshi]

Originally posted by Skookum
You know i so very rarely used them myself. I always viewed them as a smaller bash ring or the teeth as something to give me a little more oomph when i got stalled over a big log. Within a few months of riding it didn't matter what kind of ring i was using i'd knock and grind the teeth on the two sides down to nothing where i couldn't really use it anyways. On my newest bike i decided to just avoid the inevitable and put a bash guard on. I guess i'll get beat by your big gear on the forest road descents and i'll miss the hard grinding sound a ring makes versus a thud of a bash ring on rocks, but i'll live thru it.

the 36t i'm running on my evil is the biggest i've had on a off-road bike in years . well, i guess i ran a triple for a few intervening months, but on my xc bike i ran a bashring-32-22 setup for years...

 

[syadasti]

Originally posted by Toshi
the 36t i'm running on my evil is the biggest i've had on a off-road bike in years . well, i guess i ran a triple for a few intervening months, but on my xc bike i ran a bashring-32-22 setup for years...

I run a 24T blackspire steel inner ring and 36T al deore ramped and pinned middle with e13 BG for my trail bike - it works perfect. I don't think I would want anything else unless I got an 11-34 cassette (use an 11-32 right now). With an 11-34, I think a Truvativ Holzfeller 28-38-BG setup would work well...

 

[SpuTTer916]

We some the Cake this weekend at Annadell. They had a Trek Demo day where you could ride any bike.

It's a sweet bike for sure!

 

[JRogers]

Originally posted by Skookum
You know i so very rarely used them myself. I always viewed them as a smaller bash ring or the teeth as something to give me a little more oomph when i got stalled over a big log. Within a few months of riding it didn't matter what kind of ring i was using i'd knock and grind the teeth on the two sides down to nothing where i couldn't really use it anyways. On my newest bike i decided to just avoid the inevitable and put a bash guard on. I guess i'll get beat by your big gear on the forest road descents and i'll miss the hard grinding sound a ring makes versus a thud of a bash ring on rocks, but i'll live thru it.

True enough. I actually just get off if I know I'll grind out on something. I've ruined my share of big rings. Kind of a pain but worth it to me.