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Lords reject torture evidence use

Discussion in 'Politics & World News' started by fluff, Dec 8, 2005.

  1. fluff

    fluff Monkey Turbo

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    #1 -   Dec 8, 2005

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  2. DRB

    DRB unemployed bum

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    #2 -   Dec 8, 2005
  3. fluff

    fluff Monkey Turbo

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    Reading a thread where N8 is attempting to refute arguments with idiocy.
     
    #3 -   Dec 8, 2005
  4. DRB

    DRB unemployed bum

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    Then not only does RM oppress my first amendment rights to booty pictures, it has a policy of torture.

    I say we invade.
     
    #4 -   Dec 8, 2005
  5. LordOpie

    LordOpie MOTHER HEN

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    almost sounds like pointless rhetoric?

    I mean, if you're torturing a guy, you're not looking for him to admit to crimes for the purpose of a trial. If you're already torturing him -and- he's committed horrible acts, you'll just execute him instead of arresting him.
     
    #5 -   Dec 8, 2005
  6. DRB

    DRB unemployed bum

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    Back to my question what is torture.
     
    #6 -   Dec 8, 2005
  7. Changleen

    Changleen Paranoid Member

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    Well it does seem we have several definitions of it these days.
     
    #7 -   Dec 8, 2005
  8. N8 v2.0

    N8 v2.0 Not the sharpest tool in the shed

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    Is your country ruled by the Sith lords?
     
    #8 -   Dec 8, 2005
  9. fluff

    fluff Monkey Turbo

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    Yes N8, that's right.
     
    #9 -   Dec 8, 2005
  10. LordOpie

    LordOpie MOTHER HEN

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    There can be only one! I mean, two.
     
  11. fluff

    fluff Monkey Turbo

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    Someone please find N8 something to do. He's like a bored four-year old.
     
  12. DaveW

    DaveW Space Monkey

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    you mean he's not?? :help:
     
  13. DRB

    DRB unemployed bum

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    So which one is the one that you don't allow?
     
  14. DaveW

    DaveW Space Monkey

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    Down here.... pretty much the opposite of Bushville/Rummyland, No version of torture is allowed. :rolleyes:
     
  15. DRB

    DRB unemployed bum

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    That's not an answer but maybe my question isn't pointed enough. When does it go from interogation to torture?
     
  16. MMike

    MMike A fowl peckerwood.

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    His country is ruled by the lollipop guild...
     
  17. .:Jeenyus:.

    .:Jeenyus:. Turbo Monkey

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    As soon as you start hurting the person. Mentally or physically.
     
  18. Changleen

    Changleen Paranoid Member

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    No, it's not that simple. I could claim I was being 'mentally hurt' simply by being questioned. There has to be a more defined standard, although I agree with your 'do no harm' premis.
     
  19. Changleen

    Changleen Paranoid Member

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    Geneva Convention says:
     
  20. ridetoofast

    ridetoofast scarred, broken and drunk

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    crashing at a trail near you...
    and your continuous condescending remarks are so mature :rolleyes:
     
  21. DRB

    DRB unemployed bum

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    And there is my biggest problem. Even the Geneva Convention is horribly vague. The US is being villified and accused of something there isn't even a reasonable definition.
     
  22. ohio

    ohio The Fresno Kid

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    Just because something isn't illegal doesn't mean it's right.
     
  23. DRB

    DRB unemployed bum

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    Incredibly insightful answer.

    What isn't right? Not allowing someone to sleep for 3 days. Not giving them a feather pillow to sleep on. Not allowing someone to go to the bathroom for 3 days. Threating to beat them with a baseball bat. Using drugs to paralyze them. Asking them questions.

    You want to say someone shouldn't do something you better be ready to quantify what it is that you don't want them to do.
     
  24. ohio

    ohio The Fresno Kid

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    I think it was. And I'll explain why in a bit.

    As you've stated, that the line where interrogation becomes torture is highly subjective, and a function more of cultural norms than of physiological certainties, even inasmuch as we can quantify them.

    Because it is a function of cultural norms, it will be defined much like "reasonable doubt", by a jury of peers (in this case signatories of the Geneva Convention). Again though, we're faced with the issue of how could we possibly predict what those peers will judge to be torture...

    ... my point was, we should aspire to be so far above the fray that we never enter the grey area where a majority or even a large minority of those peers are calling our practices into question. Instead, much like Delay's ethics, we are continually pushing the boundaries and entering very grey areas.

    Would that this weren't as much a media battle as it is a ground battle, and we could define torture as the inflection point of reliable information or permanent physical/psychological damage, but the reality is that if we don't respect the cultural aspect of this, the cost becomes far greater than the benefit.

    Better?
     
  25. Changleen

    Changleen Paranoid Member

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    DRB, You're being purposefully Naive here. The CIA isn't kidnapping people off the streets and flying them to Egypt and Syria in order to put them up at the Hilton and give them a foot massage now is it? If they were acting within the law of the US they would bring them abck to the US - far cheaper, far more controllable and far less potential for problems both with security and the media.

    Your argument is heading in the direction of 'unless you can show what we're doing wrong, we're not doing anything wrong'. And regardless of what actually happens to these people, who are no doubt being tortured in what 99% of the world would consider fairly nasty ways (reports from those released include electric shock treatment, freezing, sensory depravation, suffocation, beatings) the biggest problem for the US is perception. Once again, here is Mr. Freedom and Democracy going around completly undermining the very things it claims to represent. Do you think the Arab world is somehow not aware of the media? When are Bush and co. going to understand that?
     
  26. fluff

    fluff Monkey Turbo

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    Oh, I do apologise. In future I shall try and follow your (and N8's) example of a constructive addition to the debate.

    To wit; why does the US not take the initiative and define the treatment that they will give to prisoners? As Ohio says, if you are seeking the limits of 'torture' simply in order to find out how far you can push without crossing the line into torture then you are hardly taking the moral high ground. The Geneva convention may well not mention depriving prisoners of oxygen as illegal but that hardly endorses the concept. The US should provide the fine example of justice that much of the world believed it did for so many years.
     
  27. DRB

    DRB unemployed bum

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    There the US says no torture by civillian or military personnel.

    Everyone is doing a very good job of high and mighty but it still doesn't answer the question of when interrogation becomes torture? Or are you unwilling to try and make a distinction for some reason? Because if moral folks like y'all can't make the line then how is a morally corrupt government ever going to do it.
     
  28. fluff

    fluff Monkey Turbo

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    Definition is never going to be exact enough or detailed enough to allow a decent crack at interrogation without leaving itself open to interpretation in either direction.
     
  29. ohio

    ohio The Fresno Kid

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    It has already been defined. While there's always room for improvement, I don't see anything major wrong with the existing definitions (though, of course, I'm hardly an expert). They served us well for 50 years, until two things happened:
    1. The media gained more access to conflicts
    2. The current administration publicly chose not to apply a set of those definitions to our conflict

    The existing set will function just fine if they're observed in good faith. The issue is that this administration has not only encouraged pushing the limits and finding the holes within the definitions, they have disdainfully undermined the value of them.