[valve bouncer]

I know it is popular to protect people and say they are not responsible for their own actions....but really now. How else did you consult other than the recruiter when making your decision? The recruiter is not going to stear you away....don't blame them. Take some responsibility for what you chose, be it good or bad for you....you chose it.

It's true Rhino, but some people don't have the options you had perhaps. Life is all about options, some people have more than others. How many people from Harvard go into the military at the grunt level. A lot of people think there's nothing left me for me, the military offers something for me and in the majority of cases it's a net gain but when you're lying on the sand in Iraq with the life bleeding out of you, I wonder how many said "well such is life, this was my choice". Yeah, it's a chice but it's a heeluva one for a lot of people. Especially now........

I read a spread in a paper a while back that had pictures, a name, hometown, age, rank and how they died, of every American who'd been killed (to that point) in Iraq. I read every single one. Terribly, terribly poignant, and I remember meeting guys like that in my journeys, these young Americans, credits to their country, trying to to do the right thing, but being duped by these horrible politicians in Washington who are lying to them and who are telling them they are doing a great thing. It's never "Dulce Et Decorum Est Pro Patria Mori".......

 

[RhinofromWA]

Rhino wrote:....I have never slid down a slide of razor blades into a pool of rubbing alcohal.....but I think I will pass......

Please don't insult the intelligence of anyone who might read this thread with that lame, 'apples to oranges' rebuttle!

YOU JUST DONT GET IT MAN, And unfortunately, You probably never will.

Fact is I don't need to get shot by a rifle to know it is going to hurt something fierce! It was more like 'apples to catalitic converters' thank you. That does not negate the trueth behind it....it doesn't take first hand knowledge to figure things out all the time. I guess you would go down the slide...wouldn't you?

I am sorry you are closeminded enough to refuse anyone could have a clue about the military unless they jumped right in there.

Consider this, since you have been in the military, YOU haven't a clue if you could have an idea what it was like being in the military without actually joining? How dare you question ME?! You can't possibly know what it is like to be me...not joining the military....becuase you did. Strange place we put ourselves in? If you can know/have an idea of where I am coming from....than I can of you. I did not grow up in a bubble...I have had plenty of stories from my father and his buddies along with my friends.

It is commen sense....the military exists to function in service of the country. To fight it's wars and defend it.

PS- ID, I didn't mean to drop the bolded addition above my never understanding part of your post. It was added later....after I selected it to respond to.

 

[valve bouncer]

Rhino wrote:....I have never slid down a slide of razor blades into a pool of rubbing alcohal.....but I think I will pass......

Please don't insult the intelligence of anyone who might read this thread with that lame, 'apples to oranges' rebuttle!


Rhino wrote:....Troops pre 9/11 were simply in waite for an event like that....

YOU JUST DONT GET IT MAN, And unfortunately, You probably never will.

Mate, I appreciate your sentiments and mostly agree with you, but I see you gettin' your dander up against Rhino. Rhino posts a lot on this forum and I almost never agree with what he has to says but he's a good bloke and he almost always says what he has to say in a good spirit and with a smile. I think you should rebut in the same spirit mate.
If ya wanna go for the jugular try N8, he's the slut of the forum.

 

[RhinofromWA]

It's true Rhino, but some people don't have the options you had perhaps. Life is all about options, some people have more than others. How many people from Harvard go into the military at the grunt level. A lot of people think there's nothing left me for me, the military offers something for me and in the majority of cases it's a net gain but when you're lying on the sand in Iraq with the life bleeding out of you, I wonder how many said "well such is life, this was my choice". Yeah, it's a chice but it's a heeluva one for a lot of people. Especially now........

I read a spread in a paper a while back that had pictures, a name, hometown, age, rank and how they died, of every American who'd been killed (to that point) in Iraq. I read every single one. Terribly, terribly poignant, and I remember meeting guys like that in my journeys, these young Americans, credits to their country, trying to to do the right thing, but being duped by these horrible politicians in Washington who are lying to them and who are telling them they are doing a great thing. It's never "Dulce Et Decorum Est Pro Patria Mori".......

No one wants to die...

But you make a choice to join a group that had every possibility to put you were the life may be bleeding out of you. If you are not ready to serve your country in that manner the military is not your best option.

Their honor comes from serving the country. The politicians and the mistakes they make should not tarnish that. The wars that the soldiers fight are another discussion all together from this.

 

[RhinofromWA]

Rhino wrote:....Troops pre 9/11 were simply in waite for an event like that....

YOU JUST DONT GET IT MAN, And unfortunately, You probably never will.

In that context, I think the part you are angry about is you didn't accept that is what a military is for...pre-war times.

Going into the military during peace times should carry with it, the same reservations as if you were to do it during times of war. Correct? You can't select the #2 Military Service Combo with no war time service please.... it is a part of joining the military. If you weren't willing to serve when needed you should not have joined....you or anyone else.

I am afraid I do get it, make little in the ways of acceptance of ignorance of people joining the military, and that is something you are finding difficult to accept. That is cool. I would still share a beer with you....if you felt so inclined.

Rhino

 

[valve bouncer]

Their honor comes from serving the country. The politicians and the mistakes they make should not tarnish that. The wars that the soldiers fight are another discussion all together from this.

I think you can't seperate it mate. Why are WW2 soldiers so venerated and Vietnam and following fighters not so? They weren't any less brave. It's politics which is war by other means.

 

[RhinofromWA]

I think you can't seperate it mate. Why are WW2 soldiers so venerated and Vietnam and following fighters not so? They weren't any less brave. It's politics which is war by other means.

That is not the soldiers fault. It is the people who didn't fights fault for the treatment they received. The people who opposed the were war blaming the war on the people sent to fight it not the ones who decided the military should go in.

I see no difference between WW2 and 'Nam vets (and other wars)....but that is just me. That is a real shame. The soldiers don't make policy they just vow to enforce it.

The blame focused on troops there doing their job, should have gone directly to the decision makers. Serving in the military, willing to give your life in service, deserves more than screaming and pointing a finger at them when they arrive home.

 

[valve bouncer]

That is not the soldiers fault. It is the people who didn't fights fault for the treatment they received. The people who opposed the were war blaming the war on the people sent to fight it not the ones who decided the military should go in.

I see no difference between WW2 and 'Nam vets (and other wars)....but that is just me. That is a real shame. The soldiers don't make policy they just vow to enforce it.

The blame focused on troops there doing their job, should have gone directly to the decision makers. Serving in the military, willing to give your life in service, deserves more than screaming and pointing a finger at them when they arrive home.

Rhino I agree with you on that, but what I'm saying is that you can't seperate the war from the politics, they are one and the same thing.

 

[RhinofromWA]

Rhino I agree with you on that, but what I'm saying is that you can't seperate the war from the politics, they are one and the same thing.

I was trying to separate the soldier from the war/politics I must have been unclear.

Blaming the soldier serving his country for a war you don't beleive in is wrong. The blame should be directed at the war itself and the people in control over it.

 

[IronDonkey]

Rhino wrote:....In that context, I think the part you are angry about is you didn't accept that is what a military is for...pre-war times....

No, I'm not angry about my own service. It was a cake walk. I served aboard the USS Boston, a fast attack submarine stationed out of Groton, CT. I made enough money to lease a fast car, hooked up with enough women throughout the east coast, mediterranean and japan to give wilt chamberlin a run for his money, and basically got a free ride through college afterwards.

I'm angry for the kids that came after me. Who, like me were never properly advised of all the possible outcomes of signing the dotted line. Kid's who were scammed into buying the salesmanship of their bottom feeding recruiters. Kid's who were never advised that they needed to be emotionally ready to give and take human life before making such a commitment.

But mostly I'm pissed off that my buddy Dave hasn't left his house in the 6 months he's been home b/c he cant phucking live with himself after being part of a team that was ultimately responsible for the killing of literally thousands of people they had never met.

Ultimately it is each persons decision to serve. But I definately think as a community we should require our millitary to truly INFORM each and every applicant. Otherwise we are SCAMMING people out of their LIFE! Even if they DO survive the war!

 

[IronDonkey]

Rhino wrote:...I would still share a beer with you....if you felt so inclined.

Rhino

Right on man, If you ever make it over to Keystone/Vail area, I'll buy ya a pint of fat tire.....as long as you dont bring up politics! LOL

 

[N8 v2.0]

Maybe we need two militarys; one for peace time garrison duty and the other for actual combat...?

 

[RhinofromWA]

ID,

Man you have that bold feature down. now this one is cool too....

followed by the "/"quote box thingy.

Or Highlight the text and click that little thought bubble icon when posting....

 

[RhinofromWA]

Rhino wrote:....In that context, I think the part you are angry about is you didn't accept that is what a military is for...pre-war times....
No, I'm not angry about my own service. It was a cake walk. I served aboard the USS Boston, a fast attack submarine stationed out of Groton, CT. I made enough money to lease a fast car, hooked up with enough women throughout the east coast, mediterranean and japan to give wilt chamberlin a run for his money, and basically got a free ride through college afterwards.

You slut!

I am glad your service went smoothly.

I'm angry for the kids that came after me. Who, like me were never properly advised of all the possible outcomes of signing the dotted line. Kid's who were scammed into buying the salesmanship of their bottom feeding recruiters. Kid's who were never advised that they needed to be emotionally ready to give and take human life before making such a commitment.

I just don't understand... What does everyone think the military is for? A venue solely for an education?

But mostly I'm pissed off that my buddy Dave hasn't left his house in the 6 months he's been home b/c he cant phucking live with himself after being part of a team that was ultimately responsible for the killing of literally thousands of people they had never met.

That sucks. Why did he join the military? It is normal to not be happy with what goes down during a war. I don't hold him responsible, and I hope other civilians don't rag on him for serving. I hope that he soon forgives himself for carrying out orders given by someone else.

Ultimately it is each persons decision to serve. But I definately think as a community we should require our millitary to truly INFORM each and every applicant. Otherwise we are SCAMMING people out of their LIFE! Even if they DO survive the war!

What part of joining the military (and not Peace Corps) is hard to understand? How dillusioned are we as a society to think war is clean or war is fair? We aren't fighting nameless faceless figures...though the military would like you to train to respond that way.

 

[IronDonkey]

ID,

Man you have that bold feature down. now this one is cool too....

followed by the "/"quote box thingy.

Or Highlight the text and click that little thought bubble icon when posting....

Yeah, but that's what people would expect me to do! I like things to be as difficult as possible....

 

[IronDonkey]

I am glad your service went smoothly.

thanks

I just don't understand... What does everyone think the military is for? A venue solely for an education?

In short, YES

That sucks. Why did he join the military? It is normal to not be happy with what goes down during a war. I don't hold him responsible, and I hope other civilians don't rag on him for serving. I hope that he soon forgives himself for carrying out orders given by someone else.

I don't think I really wanna talk about my buddy anymore. I probably shouldn't have brought him up in the first place. Too personal...

What part of joining the military (and not Peace Corps) is hard to understand? How dillusioned are we as a society to think war is clean or war is fair? We aren't fighting nameless faceless figures...though the military would like you to train to respond that way.

I think you answered your own question, in the last part of your statement...
"We aren't fighting nameless faceless figures...though the military would like you to train to respond that way" BINGO!

 

[RhinofromWA]

Yeah for the quote feature!

In short, YES

*shakes head*....I would tend to be angry at those people.

I don't think I really wanna talk about my buddy anymore. I probably shouldn't have brought him up in the first place. Too personal...

I understand. I will not bring it up agian.

I think you answered your own question, in the last part of your statement...
"We aren't fighting nameless faceless figures...though the military would like you to train to respond that way" BINGO!

Which brings back the nievety of the people these days. Military is used to kill people. Not just pay for an education, but they will if you join them, to kill people There is no other reason for the military to be....they kill people. They don't carry french ticklers and koosh balls.

Now who has not a clue what the military is before signing up?


Rhino

 

[Slugman]

Yeah, but that's what people would expect me to do! I like things to be as difficult as possible....

So you joined the military to express you individuality...

 

[drift1492]

If someone can vote for the leaders of our country, they can make their own decision on whether or not to join the military. Ignorance should not be an excuse, nor mis-information. They should use their brain to shift through the BS, just like we all have to do when we vote.

 

[special O]

Just thought I would add my own 2 cents. My best friend and roommate of 2 years joined the army reserves and left a month ago to go to basic training. He is doing it for one reason. To pay for college. Because of a combination of things he no longer receives the financial aid he had that allowed him to attend college for 2 years. My parents both had good paying jobs and began saving for my brother and I to go to college before we were even born. Unfortunately he is not in the same situation. He receives almost no financial support from his parents and barely had enough money to eat and pay rent and have a little left over for beer. He joined the army because when he gets back the army will pay for him to continue to go to school. He looked hard for other options but this was the only way he felt he could continue attending college.

I feel he is different from a majority of people who join the army. His stepdad (who he calls his dad) was in the army and served in desert storm. He grew up on army bases. He knew what he was getting into and I discussed with him at length the risks he was taking. He is putting his hopes on going back to school when he is done with basic and bush losing office and this IRAQ thing being settled before he graduates. In his first letter to me he wrote: "... we havn't done any real army training yet. It's mostly been classroom stuff, breifings and lectures about Army rules and regulations. Its amazing to me how many kids here had no idea what they were getting into. They didn't even know about the special laws and penalties that apply to people in the military." To me that says that the military recruiters aren't giving the full picture to the people they are signing up. I doubt the recruiters are asking them if they feel they are ready to sift through the bodies of dead regular people much like themselves in some far off country.

I bet alot of the kids we have in the military today didn't have a much better option. They are told/view the military as a way out of working at burking king when they are 32. The military glamorizes service and (in my opinion) tricks many of them into signing up. I think the point that Michael Moore is trying to make to people like O'Reilly (when I watch TV its bike racing, adult swim, or comedy central, I avoid the news/political crap) who support Bush and his government is: If your son or daughter was over there in Iraq, would you be so gung ho about bush's actions... Are the troops there really serving OUR COUNTRY, as they were led to believe....

special O

 

[Silver]

Which brings back the nievety of the people these days. Military is used to kill people. Not just pay for an education, but they will if you join them, to kill people There is no other reason for the military to be....they kill people. They don't carry french ticklers and koosh balls.

Now who has not a clue what the military is before signing up?


Rhino

I think it would be different if we were killing people for a reason.

Instead we have about 20 different reasons, none compelling enough on their own, so they keep shifting and are continuously being put into different combinations so the general public doesn't feel bad about "collateral damage."

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

Just thought I would add my own 2 cents. My best friend and roommate of 2 years joined the army reserves and left a month ago to go to basic training. He is doing it for one reason. To pay for college. Because of a combination of things he no longer receives the financial aid he had that allowed him to attend college for 2 years. My parents both had good paying jobs and began saving for my brother and I to go to college before we were even born. Unfortunately he is not in the same situation. He receives almost no financial support from his parents and barely had enough money to eat and pay rent and have a little left over for beer. He joined the army because when he gets back the army will pay for him to continue to go to school. He looked hard for other options but this was the only way he felt he could continue attending college.

I feel he is different from a majority of people who join the army. His stepdad (who he calls his dad) was in the army and served in desert storm. He grew up on army bases. He knew what he was getting into and I discussed with him at length the risks he was taking. He is putting his hopes on going back to school when he is done with basic and bush losing office and this IRAQ thing being settled before he graduates. In his first letter to me he wrote: "... we havn't done any real army training yet. It's mostly been classroom stuff, breifings and lectures about Army rules and regulations. Its amazing to me how many kids here had no idea what they were getting into. They didn't even know about the special laws and penalties that apply to people in the military." To me that says that the military recruiters aren't giving the full picture to the people they are signing up. I doubt the recruiters are asking them if they feel they are ready to sift through the bodies of dead regular people much like themselves in some far off country.

I bet alot of the kids we have in the military today didn't have a much better option. They are told/view the military as a way out of working at burking king when they are 32. The military glamorizes service and (in my opinion) tricks many of them into signing up. I think the point that Michael Moore is trying to make to people like O'Reilly (when I watch TV its bike racing, adult swim, or comedy central, I avoid the news/political crap) who support Bush and his government is: If your son or daughter was over there in Iraq, would you be so gung ho about bush's actions... Are the troops there really serving OUR COUNTRY, as they were led to believe....

special O

yeah, spot on. where is toshi, he once corrected me on most people not being in the army for the reasons this guy just said.

and yeah, i share donkeys opinion on this. BUT i dont think is completely matter of those who lure kids into the war machine only. they are the contractor, the buyer, and paying for college, and other ammenities are just part of making their offer in an open market.

is also responsability of those who mortgage their lifes, thus i dont feel as sorry for them as i´ve read somebody did.
it is their fault to commit to others will, even if the others make a bad decision, because that was a chance they decided to take in the first place.

they know they will have to kill babies or bomb a family, or slit an enemy guard throat if asked to waaaaaaay before hand. thus i dont feel sorry for people who make that choice. is like a privateer and a pirate. both are morally the same, even if one has a gvmt license.

noiw, its a different thing in what side are you. of course in my book a WWII allied fighter is way on top in the heroic scale. and WWII nazi soldier it way down the bottom. because the first fights truly for his country and for defense, and 2nd is a despicable mercenary that got in the attacking army for money or glory or false convitions or whatever, withouh regard of its army reasons to go to war.

and that is where i disagree with rhino, i think war fighters and politicians should NOT be separated, because the ultimate voice of reason in a human should his morals, and NOT some boss will.

i understand they go thinking they will obbey good orders, BUT that is just being very "innocent". and they should pay the price for putting others will on top of their own priciples.

and i think there is no merit on obedience, if it means subjugating their principles and morals on killing innocents. like non defensive soldier armies do.

 

[IronDonkey]

If someone can vote for the leaders of our country, they can make their own decision on whether or not to join the military. Ignorance should not be an excuse, nor mis-information. They should use their brain to shift through the BS, just like we all have to do when we vote.

ah yes, "18", that pivotal age when a young man can go out and help decide who leads this great nation. A time when a young man, (or woman) can choose to fight and die bravely for our country. A time when one can finally sit down at a restaraunt and order a cool refreshing beer. Oh wait, scratch that last one from the list. "Sorry young man, we trust your ability to make responsible decisions SO MUCH<sarcasm> that we are going to let you decide who to vote for, and we'll also let you volunteer for the millitary, and all that entails, but we just dont think youre ready to decide whether or not you are ready to consume an alcoholic beverage." Sorry, thanks for playing american politics & socialogical hurdles 101. I'm sure you'll find our back asswards ways make sense uhm......never! In the meantime just vote republican. We'll make sure to give your generous middle class tax contributions to haliburton, Nron and various struggling texas oil companies. God Bless.... :eviltongu