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M6 ----> m9?

Discussion in 'Downhill & Freeride' started by epic, May 14, 2012.

  1. epic

    epic Turbo Monkey

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    I have an M6 that I am very happy with. It's a few years old now, came from the first batch. As much as I am happy with it though, I do feel the temptation to go to an M9. There is a black chrome at the shop calling to me. It has a CCDB just like mine. It's been there for about a year, so it's from an early run too. I've read about 40 pages of the M9 thread, and it doesn't seem like there are major issues. I assume this bike has the old box-link which Intense should swap out as a matter of course. It has an Angleset, are the newer ones any better, or are they all going to creak? I'm not so sure I need an Angleset anyway.

    The real question is, does this bike perform in a significantly different way from the M6? I'm not sure how you'd improve on it except that it would be nice if it jumped better. The adjustable travel/progression does seem like it would allow me to switch from East Coast Rox mode to Park mode and maybe get better jumping in park mode.

    I kond of thought I'd skip the M9 and wait for a carbon Intense, but the new bike bug is biting me, and I haven't seen any sign of a carbon M9 yet.
     

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  2. descente

    descente Monkey

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    the biggest thing is that the M9 uses a much more common 9.5x3 rear shock but nets roughly the same travel. in a sense it has a higher leverage ratio right out of the bat, so yes, it will jump better than the m6. i rode one at interbike, its the first bike that i've ever ridden that was so fast it scared me (and i've ridden most of them).

    DO IT
     
  3. Wa-Aw

    Wa-Aw Monkey

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    M9 is basically an M6 that pedals, jumps and handles better. Kinda like a half way point between a 951 and an M6. I've ridden an M9 but a friend who's had significant time on both a 951 and m6 says the M9 has much better square edge hit performance than either of the two previous bikes as well.
     
  4. norbar

    norbar Turbo Monkey

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    WTF? Mate if you imply that higher ratio = better jumping you are insane. It's the shape of the curve if anything that can affect jumping, not the avg. ratio itself.
     
  5. William42

    William42 fork ways

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    WTF SOMEBODY WHO IS MISGUIDED AND DOESN'T ENTIRELY UNDERSTAND SUSPENSION CURVES AND YAW ANGLES POSTING ON THE INTERNET?! THIS GUY MUST BE LITERALLY THE BIGGEST IDIOT EVER! I DEMAND QUESTIONS! I MEAN, ANSWERS. ALSO, AM I YELLING, OR AM I JUST OLD?

    but seriously: descente, it's actually somewhat more complex then that. "leverage ratio" is just an average taken through the travel - you have travel that goes X far, a shock stroke that goes Y far, and therefor your leverage ratio is x/y. But it changes through the stroke of the travel at one point it could be (2/3)x, and another point it could be (3/2)x for example. The way a bikes leverage ratio changes through the travel will effect how jumpy it is, but average leverage ratio wont really - you actually end up equalizing it with stiffer (or softer) springs. The main (claimed) benefit of a lower leverage ratio is less pressure on your shock, resulting in potentially less stiction and less maint/chance of blowing seals/lower shaft speed/oil temp. As far as how jumpy your bike is, chances are your wheelbase, geometry, chainstay length, shock tune, and riding style will play a way bigger roll then how your shock rate changes through the travel. But that's a secret between you and I, because the collective ridemonkey consciousness would never be able to handle the idea that leverage ratioz and yaw angles don't dictate everything.
     
  6. norbar

    norbar Turbo Monkey

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    William I'd say Ratios, axle path and possibly chainstay length play a bigger role than shock tunes or wheelbase. At least for me in terms of feel. Yes if play with damping it will be noticable but for me not as much.

    Though I love how you laugh at me and then go and post something similar to my post ;)


    btw. In case of low ratios the stiction is actually a bigger problem
     
  7. hmcleay

    hmcleay i-track suspension

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    Geometry will be by far the most noticeable difference. Compare head angle, wheelbase, and chainstay lengths (I'm sure you know this though!).

    Wheel rate curves are pretty similar (M9 very slightly more progressive), so you probably won't notice much difference there.

    Pedalling performance: M6 has significantly more (too much?) Anti-Squat throughout the range of travel. So by comparison, the M9 will feel less 'snappy' when pedalling. But the M9 is by no means a slouch in the pedalling department, when compared to some other bikes (Intense 951 is a very poor pedaller). You may also notice this when pedalling through rough stuff; M9 should have less pedal feedback.

    Braking performance: both curves are pretty similar, so you probably won't notice much difference there.

    Check out www.i-tracksuspension.com for the full explanation on comparing pedalling performance.

    Cheers,
    Hugh.
     
  8. William42

    William42 fork ways

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    haha I'm just teasing you man, nothing personal, the way you said that was just very typical ridemonkey "you're a big n00b and shouldn't even bother posting" even if you didn't mean it that way!
     
  9. norbar

    norbar Turbo Monkey

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    Sorry I've been reviewing movie scripts all month so I'm a bit in a critical mind state. I should have phrased it other way.



    tbh. If I was in place for a m6-m9 change I'd wait for carbon. From my experience bikes in the last few years didn't change that much and if you like your bike it's best to wait for carbon while you spend your money on booze, boobs and bike trips.
     
    #9 -   May 15, 2012
    Last edited: May 15, 2012
  10. descente

    descente Monkey

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    well excuse me for dumbing it down too much...i was just trying to point out to the OP that yes, the M9 is a better bike, and that depending on which settings you run it in, it more or less has a higher leverage ratio (as well as giving you the option to select progressiveness), and because of this and other factors the M9 feels more jump inclined to the rider (i've ridden both bikes). they really aren't a whole lot different, but the M9 does have a lot of refinement the M6 lacked. that is all.
     
  11. IH8Rice

    IH8Rice I'm Mr. Negative! I Fail!

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    if its from last year, its not really an "early run." the frames started shipping the end of 2010 and depending when your was actually made, it might have the new box link on it. obviously check and make sure that Intense will actually send you a new one.
    i still only know a handful of people that have had success with getting their Angleset to perform the way its suppose to...i.e. not make noise.

    the M6 i rode blew through its travel a lot easier then my M9 and didnt pedal nearly as well either. after almost a year and a half on it, i smile every time i ride it.
     
  12. epic

    epic Turbo Monkey

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    I took a good look at the M9, and I'm gonna say it has the old box link. The mounting hardware looks like what is on my M6 with E-clips and what-not. The bike was delivered in April or May 2011. Anyway, it sounds like the box link is the only change?
     
  13. epic

    epic Turbo Monkey

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    btw - I think I've bottomed my M6 once. Ever. Maybe.
     
  14. -BB-

    -BB- I broke all the rules, but somehow still became mo

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    IMO you should soften up the Susp a bit then. I would argue that you should bottom your Susp at least once or twice per day (or even per run). You want to make sure you are using ALL the travel that is available to you.
    ;)
     
  15. IH8Rice

    IH8Rice I'm Mr. Negative! I Fail!

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    if you wanted to get inquisitive, the mfg date is stamped onto the BB shell, but it doesnt really matter...afaik, the box link is the only "new" thing on the bikes


    im in the same boat
     
  16. epic

    epic Turbo Monkey

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    A few years ago, that's what I thought too, but I spent a day with the Fox guy and he showed me how I'd be wrong to think that. I switched to a stiffer spring on the front and even though I rarely use the full travel, the bike is better this way.

    The M9 has a 450 lb spring as does my M6, the Cane Creek chart shows that I could be on a 400 or a 450 depending on travel setup and fatness/gear-weight.
     
  17. William42

    William42 fork ways

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    I agree with epic. I go way faster more comfortably and more in control and i'm less tired at the end of the day when I regularly use 75-85% of the travel, without every actually coming close to a bottom out. stiffer suspension feels rad.
     
  18. norbar

    norbar Turbo Monkey

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    Why? The real indicator of proper setup should be Traction and comfort. Not number of bottom outs. I used to go that way but Craig at avy suggested I use lower sag and even though I use less travel it's not a bad thing. I'd say what Steve M. mentioned that it makes you faster on the trail may be true. At least my bike feels faster.
     
  19. epic

    epic Turbo Monkey

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    Trigger = pulled. Waiting for new box link before I swap the M6's parts to the M9.
     
  20. William42

    William42 fork ways

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    cool man, I'm sure you're going to like it!
     
  21. epic

    epic Turbo Monkey

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    Me too, though I'm looking forward to a farewell weekend with the M6.
     
  22. William42

    William42 fork ways

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    are you going to sell it? what size is it? I might be interested. My session may have bit the dust, waiting to hear back from trek.
     
  23. epic

    epic Turbo Monkey

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    It's a large, and yeah, gonna sell the frame. Ti-spring CCDB, extra dropouts and top link bolts.
     
  24. -BB-

    -BB- I broke all the rules, but somehow still became mo

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    I do trust Craig as a good person to weigh in on Susp setup, don't get me wrong. I guess it depends on what you ride though (style of the trails). If you are riding trails that have some drops/big hits on them and you still don't bottom out, then I'd wager that you are usually only using about 75% of your travel at most. In that case, why not go to a bike with less travel. Or, wouldn't it seem that you are losing a bit of traction on smaller stuff bc your susp is not reacting enough?

    If you came up to a 9in square hit and your bike only compresses 5in then I would think that the energy form this hit is either forcing your rear end up, and/or it is transfering some of the energy into the hit. If your bike compresses the full 9in, then your body/frame continues unimpeeded while the rear wheel conforms to the terrain.
     
  25. William42

    William42 fork ways

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    I run about 10% sag in the front, and about 28% in the rear. Jumping up and down on my front end with my brake held in the parking lot, I can mayyybe manage to compress it 60% of the way. I think I count as the "runs it stiff"

    I'll use an analogy: think about riding mountain bikes like sex. The first person to finish wins. With me so far? great. So if person A is getting dirty riding super stiff, and person B is trying to get dirty (IE riding a really saggy back end) they'll just end up pushing rope. Nobody wins when you push 8 inches of rope. And I play to win.
     
  26. norbar

    norbar Turbo Monkey

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    It's not so black and white with either bottoming out every run or not using full travel.

    I'm going to use a stupid and unpopular argument but I think it fits here. Look at Gwins suspension in a few flicks. His stays much higher in it's travel than mine and I guess yours too and somehow he still has traction.
    Also no switching to a smaller bike would not make sense because it's the firmness and low sag that I'm about. With the same sag I'd again be using 80% instead of 100% most of the time so you could repeat the argument untill I get to zero travel.

    It's not that I don't bottom out my susp at all. I bottom it out on very harsh stuff but if I ride right I don't even bottom it out on Maribor WC track (hashest place I've ridden this year). Right now I'm a bit off my form so I'm using a bit more sag but when I get up to it I will lower it. Though if you for example ride slow speed flat turns than yeah, more sag will probably make sense.



    btw. Look up that topic where Steave M mentioned running a firmer form meant on avg. 5% faster times when he measured it on someone.





    @William - 10% front? That is crazy. I went <20 at one point not sure how low probably closer to 15 and it required a lot of effort for me to keep traction on parts of the trail.
     
  27. -BB-

    -BB- I broke all the rules, but somehow still became mo

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    Um... I think you are doing it wrong.

    You are MUCH more likely to convince me to run firmer Susp than you are to convince me that the first one to finish wins. Personally, I... sorry, WE like to take our time and savor it. And when she finishes before me, I WIN. I'm gonna finish either way, no question about that. Some times she will lap me a few times crossing that fiish like over and over and over again while I just take my time at a light jog. Sometimes stopping for a bite to eat along the way. Now THAT is the sign of a good ride.
    :thumb:
     
    #27 -   May 16, 2012
    Last edited: May 16, 2012
  28. time-bomb

    time-bomb Monkey

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    ^^this^^
     
  29. baca262

    baca262 Monkey

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    that's just plain too stiff. you should be able to go at least 1cm from bottoming when pounding the front wheel into pavement on a parking lot, bottom if you hold the brake. i can almost bottom out this way with 15% sag but i should be running at least 5% more but i need to get softer spring for that. it's perfect for slamming into stuff but sacrifices some traction.
     
  30. William42

    William42 fork ways

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    Man, you n00bs who don't think sex is a race probably like "care" for your partner. I bet you even cuddle afterwords.

    I think you meant to say "too stiff for me" and "I like to be able to get at least 1cm from bottoming" ;)

    edited to stay on topic!
     
    #30 -   May 16, 2012
    Last edited: May 16, 2012
  31. baca262

    baca262 Monkey

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    well if you hit tree stumps @30+ kph i guess it's good.
     
  32. Huck Banzai

    Huck Banzai Turbo Monkey

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    What if you hit them with your shoulder?
     
  33. norbar

    norbar Turbo Monkey

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    I agree that 10% seems very little but tbh I can't almost bottom out my fork too and it has more sag then yours. Also I think it's for William to decide if he has enough traction. I've seen some really fast people with really stupid setups so the "the fork has to do thing X Y number of times" is a silly argument and only useful as a simplification when you have completely no clue.