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Mac w/ windows, good idea?

Li'l Dave

Monkey
Jan 10, 2002
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I need to get a new computer (mine is old, slow and dying) I'm looking at the new iMac with the intel chip and was just wondering if anyone has any experience with running CAD on these new models. I know you can boot up in either OS, but will it work properly, or does it make more sense to just stick with the old PC? It doesn't sound like they have been out for long, but it seems like a pretty cool idea, and if I am already in the market for a new computer, does it make sense to even consider this as a possibility? Thanks.


Dave
 

binary visions

The voice of reason
Jun 13, 2002
21,657
408
NC
It was very interesting to me as a possibility since I'm in the IT industry and being at home in either OS is a good thing to put on a resume.

Two things, though. A) Macs are more expensive than a comperable PC and you don't get nearly the number of choices, and B) I'd be interested to see how much driver support keeps coming.

I think I'm going to hold off a bit and see if this is a real effort that will continue to be supported, or a "Look what we can do!" type of thing.

Certainly a cool idea, I'm just not sure how practical it will end up being in the long run.
 

syadasti

i heart mac
Apr 15, 2002
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Virtualization at near native peformance in a protected sandbox environment is by far much more interesting to me, especially since most users would get in to too much trouble when using windows on their own in dual boot.

It will take them longer to pull it off cleanly than boot camp.

Also an iMac is an overpriced, upgrade limited, budget machine - it won't run heavy duty CAD apps very well.
 

Ridemonkey

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Sep 18, 2002
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syadasti said:
Virtualization at near native peformance in a protected sandbox environment is by far much more interesting to me, especially since most users would get in to too much trouble when using windows on their own in dual boot.

It will take them longer to pull it off cleanly than boot camp.

Also an iMac is an overpriced, upgrade limited, budget machine - it won't run heavy duty CAD apps very well.
Show me a PC with a 2ghz dual core chip, 512MB RAM, 250 Gig HD, DVD burner, Wireless and Bluetooth, and a built in 20" lcd screen, camera and mic for $1699.
 

Tenchiro

Attention K Mart Shoppers
Jul 19, 2002
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New England
Its a good idea for Apple, because now they can fish for customers from two ponds. Alot of Windows people seem to be raving about the idea also.

As for the $1699 price tag, you may not find a comparable Windows only box for much less, but I bet I could build one to that spec for about the same. Plus I would be able to upgrade anything and everything inside when the time came, and you can't say that about the Mac.
 

syadasti

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Apr 15, 2002
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Ridemonkey said:
Show me a PC with a 2ghz dual core chip, 512MB RAM, 250 Gig HD, DVD burner, Wireless and Bluetooth, and a built in 20" lcd screen, camera and mic for $1699.
My friend has this PC except he didn't buy this bundle (he got the PC alone for $800) and since its not some stupid integrated setup, he upgraded to a good videocard (not some x1600 crap) and Audigy 2. The AMD X2 2GHz 4200+ does equal or better than the 2GHz Core Duo, so this system is even faster. With a nice videocard upgrade, better LCD, and 10K primary HDD, you could easily do some heavy duty CAD work for the same price as the iMac which would choke and couldn't be upgraded to the same performance level.

Bestbuy.com $1249.97
Gateway 4200+ Media Center with 19" Monitor, Printer, Cable & Surge Protector


Multitask with ease and enjoy digital photos, music, movies and games to the max, thanks to the dual-core processor and Windows XP Media Center 2005 with TV tuner.

Gateway GM5072 Desktop Computer
AMD Athlon64 X2 4200+ Dual Core2.2GHz 2 x 512KB L2 Cache 2000MHz System Bus
nVidia GeForce 6100 Chipset / nVidia GeForce 6100 GPU
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Unit Dimensions 15.4”(H) x 7.3”(W) x 17.9”(D) / Weight 23.5 lbs
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19" flat-panel monitor with 16 ms response time and 450:1 contrast ratio; PIXMA all-in-one photo printer with ChromaLife100 technology
Geek Squad™ 10' USB 2.0 cable with gold contacts; 10-outlet surge protector with high 3000-joule rating
 

Ridemonkey

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syadasti said:
My friend has this PC except he didn't buy this bundle (he got the PC alone for $800) and since its not some stupid integrated setup, he upgraded to a good videocard (not some x1600 crap) and Audigy 2. The AMD X2 2GHz 4200+ does equal or better than the 2GHz Core Duo, so this system is even faster. With a nice videocard upgrade, better LCD, and 10K primary HDD, you could easily do some heavy duty CAD work for the same price as the iMac which would choke and couldn't be upgraded to the same performance level.
:rolleyes: Your entire argument is based around the ability to upgrade. Do you know what percentage of users upgrade audio/video cards in their lifetime? If anything most people will upgrade RAM, and 2Gigs is plenty.

As for one 2GHz processor being faster than another you're speculating. If there is a difference it'll be barely discernible.

Better LCD? Now that's just grasping for straws. Surely you're not talking about the LCD bundled with that PC, so there's another $300-400. The iMac LCD is very bright, and clear...better than any LCD I've every used, including my 23" cinema display.

So you're saying you can buy a system for $800, put in somewhere in the neighbourhood of $700 worth of upgrades, and have a machine that for pretty much anyone not using CAD or 3D intensive apps would be basically the same? And you're stuck with a big, ugly tower, with a bunch of strap ons? The iMac's entire footprint is the size of an LCD, and it's one cohesive unit.

I guess I just compare this to bolting a bunch of crap onto a civic to get the same performance as a Camaro. Sure, it can be done, but it's ugly, and in the end you could have just bought the Camaro for a little bit more.
 

syadasti

i heart mac
Apr 15, 2002
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Ridemonkey said:
I guess I just compare this to bolting a bunch of crap onto a civic to get the same performance as a Camaro. Sure, it can be done, but it's ugly, and in the end you could have just bought the Camaro for a little bit more.
No it just show you didn't bother to read this thread:rolleyes:

The guy wants to do CAD work, the iMac won't cut it. In stock configuration that machine will be faster and since he's doing CAD work, he would want to make the upgrades and get the good LCD screen instead of this budget bundle example from Best Buy (or even the average 20" LCD Apple panel/Dell 2005 FPW - there are better screens available these days).

You know in real life business do work CAD on workstations, not iMacs. They always use separate towers, just like the Powermac does cause upgrades/customized configs. are important in professional settings ;)

I'm not just speculating, the 4200+ X2 is faster than the Core Duo 2 GHz - just look at the benchmarks on Anandtech, Tomshardware, etc. In professional applications like CAD the difference is significant. In day to day tasks they'll be about the same at the same clock speed, but this guy said CAD, so it matters.
 

Ridemonkey

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Sep 18, 2002
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syadasti said:
No it just show you didn't bother to read this thread:rolleyes:

The guy wants to do CAD work, the iMac won't cut it. In stock configuration that machine will be faster and since he's doing CAD work, he would want to make the upgrades and get the good LCD screen instead of this budget bundle example from Best Buy.

You know in real life business do work CAD on workstations, not iMacs. They always use separate towers, just like the Powermac does cause upgrades/customized configs. are important in professional settings ;)
I was commenting on the content of your post, not the original thread.

I'm not saying an iMac can do CAD work, I don't know...and frankly I'm not sure how you would either without some testing. Nor was I recommending that he get one.

My point was that much of your justification was inaccurate.

You said the iMac is over-priced. I disagree.

You said the AMD 2GHz is faster than the Intel 2GHz. I said I doubt it's quantifiably so.

You said you could get all your upgrades, and a better LCD for less than the cost of an iMac. Mayyybe.

Maybe you didn't bother to read my post. :rolleyes:
 

syadasti

i heart mac
Apr 15, 2002
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Ridemonkey said:
You said the iMac is over-priced. I disagree.
That $1250 Gateway bundle has a better value than then $1700 iMac regardless - its overpriced and the consumer gets more functionality from Gateway:

-Its got a faster CPU (also its 2.2 GHz, not 2GHz) (this combined with the extra RAM will be noticeable to users)
-4 times the RAM and supports double maximum RAM
-Its got 70GB more HDD space (hold more stuff for the average user)
-Its got a TV tuner and PVR[ie Tivo] functionality (yeah people like that)
-Its got a 9-1 memory card reader built-in (most people have digital camera and prefer readers over directly connecting their camera)
-It has 7.1 stereo sound support (doesn't matter to most people)
-It has two DVD drives (do drive to drive copying or convenience)
-4 more USB 2.0 ports (3 probably isn't enough)
-more internally expandable (yeah most people won't apply)
-free multifunction printer (yes most users want a printer)
-free surge protector and USB2 cable (yes every user needs this)
 

Ridemonkey

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Sep 18, 2002
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syadasti said:
That $1250 Gateway bundle has a better value than then $1700 iMac regardless - its overpriced and the consumer gets more functionality from Gateway:

-Its got a faster CPU (also its 2.2 GHz, not 2GHz)
-4 times the RAM and supports double maximum RAM
-Its got 70GB more HDD space
-Its got a TV tuner and PVR[ie Tivo] functionality
-Its got a 9-1 memory card reader built-in
-It has 7.1 stereo sound support
-It has two DVD drives
-4 more USB 2.0 ports
-more internally expandable
-free multifunction printer
-free surge protector and USB2 cable

Value is a perceived quality.

For example, here's what's not valuable to me:

- 4 extra USB ports that won't be used because I use wireless accessories

- an unused extra DVD player

- a crappy ink jet printer

- tv tuner...I have a $3000 tv, why would I watch tv on a computer monitor?


Here's what is valuable to me:

- getting through 12 hours of work without freezing or crashing

- fitting in visually, and taking up as little space as possible in my home office

- quality software



I can't get what's valuable to me in a PC, and I'm not going to pay for what isn't valuable to me.

If what Apple provides isn't valuable to you, that's fine, but it really pisses me off when people go around saying something is over-priced just because it provides a different set of qualities than what they're looking for.
 

syadasti

i heart mac
Apr 15, 2002
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Ridemonkey said:
- getting through 12 hours of work without freezing or crashing

- fitting in visually, and taking up as little space as possible in my home office

- quality software
I've been doing all those things since Windows 2000, so whats your point? A tower under/on the side of your desk isn't taking up useful space and is unseen (its a giant calculator, not a piece of art - nobody wants to see your computer). A PowerMac tower is much bigger than most PC towers BTW.

See my edited list above, most of those extras have value to the average user...
 

Tenchiro

Attention K Mart Shoppers
Jul 19, 2002
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Ridemonkey said:
Here's what is valuable to me:

- getting through 12 hours of work without freezing or crashing
Why do people always bring this up when making an argument against Windows... My XP PC at work runs for weeks at a time without any issues.

If you are unable to get Windows to run for more than 12 hours, you have bigger problems and yes a Mac may be for you. (Not you specifically but they royal you.)

- fitting in visually, and taking up as little space as possible in my home office
I agree this is a huge advantage. Matching my PC to the Decor in my kitchen nook is a top priority when it comes to my computing needs.
 

syadasti

i heart mac
Apr 15, 2002
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BeerDemon said:
Dude, jokes on you for arguing with the Windows bot. :rofl:
Its not an argument, its a fact of reality.

If it was better the userbase would grow significantly in the 30 years Apple has been around. Its not better and only 5-6% of computer users have them. I have one currently but I use my PC more cause its a superior solution for me.
 

Ridemonkey

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syadasti said:
I've been doing all those things since Windows 2000, so whats your point? A tower under/on the side of your desk isn't taking up useful space and is unseen (its a giant calculator, not a piece of art - nobody wants to see your computer). A PowerMac tower is much bigger than most PC towers BTW.

See my edited list above, most of those extras have value to the average user...

Not having a tower at all means it's truly unseen, and takes up no space.

At what point did I ever mention a G5? This whole conversation has been about iMacs.

If you want a machine with a dozen features you won't use that's fine, I'd rather just stick with what I need and what I need does not include superfluous ports, drives or tuners.

Tenchiro: If you want a big ugly tower whirring away in your livingroom that's your prerogative.

The underlying point here, computers aside, is that different people have different priorities, and just because you have a certain preference, doesn't make all other preferences over-priced, or stupid. Value is perceived.
 

Ridemonkey

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You've surveyed?

The fact that more people have PCs, has NO bearing as to their preference.

Most people have never used a Mac, and don't know what they're missing, or are happy with a $400 machine from Costco.

I know a lot of people who have switched from PC to Mac, I don't know anyone who's gone the other way.
 

Tenchiro

Attention K Mart Shoppers
Jul 19, 2002
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Ridemonkey said:
Tenchiro: If you want a big ugly tower whirring away in your livingroom that's your prerogative.
Personally speaking I can build a micro ATX PC and tuck it into just about anything.
 

syadasti

i heart mac
Apr 15, 2002
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Ridemonkey said:
I know a lot of people who have switched from PC to Mac, I don't know anyone who's gone the other way.
My first PC was an Apple IIc and I used macs and school when I was young later I even had a Newton 120. I switched from Macs to PCs. My sister had a color classic while she was in HS. She switched to PCs in college and now owns PC notebooks.

DW bought a Mac for his wife. He said it was the biggest turd he ever owned. I believe he switched back too...

dw said:
HHAHAHAA Thats great.

Mac's suck balls. When will they go away? All I know is that the titanium laptop I bought for my wife was/is a huge turd waste of my money.
 

Ridemonkey

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syadasti said:
My first PC was an Apple IIc and I used macs and school when I was young later I even had a Newton 120. I switched from Macs to PCs. My sister had a color classic while she was in HS. She switched to PCs in college and now owns PC notebooks.

DW bought a Mac for his wife. He said it was the biggest turd he ever owned. I believe he switched back too...
Well, how can I argue with as conclusive an argument as that? You clearly win.

While we're at it...I need a new car...Honda Civics are cheap, and lots of people have them, can I infer from your logic that they must in fact be the best car?
 

syadasti

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Apr 15, 2002
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Tenchiro said:
Personally speaking I can build a micro ATX PC and tuck it into just about anything.
Target has been selling microATX shuttle-type PCs for about 3 years now I think?
 

syadasti

i heart mac
Apr 15, 2002
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Ridemonkey said:
While we're at it...I need a new car...Honda Civics are cheap, and lots of people have them, can I infer from your logic that they must in fact be the best car?
For what the average persons needs are, yes - the pocketbook shows what people think was the best option for them.

Otherwise we could say Macs and PC suck, get a $10K+ professional workstation...
 

syadasti

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Ridemonkey said:
Yeah, you're right...and anyone who spends more than you is an idiot and buys over-priced things.
No the marketplace says PCs are best, not me...
 

syadasti

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Ridemonkey said:
No it doesn't. It shows that more people buy them. Show me one product where the majority of the population buy the best model.
Its the model that best meets the balance of the average user needs. Performance, specs, price, style, etc...
 

sHasta

Chimp
Jun 23, 2004
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Charlotte, NC
Ridemonkey said:
Here's what is valuable to me:

- getting through 12 hours of work without freezing or crashing
This is a false argument I hear quite often from Mac owners.

I work in the IT field at a large community college. We cater to 70,000 students and have over 5000 desktop PCs all running windows XP Pro SP2 (we also have an assortment of Macs). I have yet to see one of them crash solely because they had XP as the OS (although our PCs do crash, all computers do). Also a large percentage of our servers are Windows based, they seem fine running 24-7 for months on end.

I like Macs. I feel they are superior quality machines from a hardware stand point, by this I mean quality of materials. In my opinion they are also more esthetically pleasing. You can’t forget how nice looking Aqua is on OS X

The comparison I like to use is opening up a G5 and our newest dell desktop model (we are a dell house) side by side. The quality of materials, engineering that goes into part placement and attention to detail are far superior with the Macs, hence the higher price tag.

A better argument might be how very few if any viruses are written for Mac OS’s or the fact that Mac OS’s are not as susceptible to most forms of spy ware.

Not having to deal with these problems:
• saves money since you don’t need to buy a anti-virus/anti-spy ware solution and the subscription that comes with it
• frees up resources. Allowing you use the hardware you do have more efficiently
 

Tenchiro

Attention K Mart Shoppers
Jul 19, 2002
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sHasta said:
..and you can't with a Mac or you don't know how?
I am sure that I could, but I am not sure why I would want to when I can get the same functionality and more upgradability from a PC. Not to mention spending less.

And if I were going to stick a computer in my front room, it would be cleverly disguised. And digging the components out of a Mac, especially something like an iMac would just be a pain in the ass.
 

Ridemonkey

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sHasta said:
A better argument might be how very few if any viruses are written for Mac OS’s or the fact that Mac OS’s are not as susceptible to most forms of spy ware.
Yes, this is what I meant in regards to freezing and crashing. I don't have a problem with XP, when I first got it I was quite pleased with it, but for most people getting infected with spyware, adware, viruses, etc, at some point is pretty much an inevitability.

I'm not saying that an advanced user can't block all these things, but for a lot of people it is an issue; one that doesn't exist for Mac users yet.
 

Ridemonkey

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Tenchiro said:
I am sure that I could, but I am not sure why I would want to when I can get the same functionality and more upgradability from a PC. Not to mention spending less.

And if I were going to stick a computer in my front room, it would be cleverly disguised. And digging the components out of a Mac, especially something like an iMac would just be a pain in the ass.
Not everyone wants to have to disguise their computer.
 

syadasti

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Ridemonkey said:
Not everyone wants to have to disguise their computer.
Only geeks would want to proudly display their computers, tools, etc. in the open :rofl:

No normal person cares about what computer you have.
 

Ridemonkey

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syadasti said:
Only geeks would want to proudly display their computers, tools, etc. in the open :rofl:

No normal person cares about what computer you have.
Did I say anything about proudly displaying it, or anyone else caring? No, I said I don't want to buy something for my house that I then have to disguise.

Would you buy a new sofa then re-cover it?
 

Tenchiro

Attention K Mart Shoppers
Jul 19, 2002
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Ridemonkey said:
Did I say anything about proudly displaying it, or anyone else caring? No, I said I don't want to buy something for my house that I then have to disguise.

Would you buy a new sofa then re-cover it?
You're the one who brought up having a large whirring tower in your front room, I just explained why that wouldn't be a problem.