[$tinkle]

Nice dodge. Are you implying all 15M are engaged in violent crime?

ok, others don't deserve a srs answer, but you do, so here goes:

by 'acting up', i'm talking about all criminal activity, violent (vast minority of illegal immigrants, i presume), and non-violent, most prominently drug trafficking, property crime & others that results in lower quality of life & property values, increased unemployment, & degrade a sense of safety

for you to presume the vast majority of illegal immigrants are as law-abiding as joe sickpack except for that one unreasonable border issue is rather odd. how did you arrive at this conclusion? (i derive from your prev stmts this is mostly in line w/ your position; advise if i'm mistaken.)

 

[Pesqueeb]

Nice dodge. Are you implying all 15M are engaged in violent crime?

insomuch as you're implying wall street is.

burnnnn


/mmike

I know which one is casuing more damage to this country.


*hint: Its not the brownskins

 

[Pesqueeb]

for you to presume the vast majority of illegal immigrants are as law-abiding as joe sickpack except for that one unreasonable border issue is rather odd. how did you arrive at this conclusion? (i derive from your prev stmts this is mostly in line w/ your position; advise if i'm mistaken.)

For you to presume that they are not "as law-abiding as joe sickpack except for that one unreasonable border issue" is just as odd and IHMO only perpetuates the argument that this is a race issue and not a legal issue.

 

[$tinkle]

after reading my post (really, who has time to do that before you click 'post'?), i feel the need to clarify i don't believe illegal immigration is the reason why we have crime. but it does play a role, and it's not exactly through a scared straight program.

gang activity & human trafficking won't disappear if "we shipped 'em all back", but who among us can be convinced it would have no appreciable effect?

again, i need to acknowledge obama's position on this as one of the most sane, reasonable, & respectful to all interested parties

 

[$tinkle]

For you to presume that they are not "as law-abiding as joe sickpack except for that one unreasonable border issue" is just as odd and IHMO only perpetuates the argument that this is a race issue and not a legal issue.

for the intellectually lazy, yes, it certainly does.

but the most part, note the significant number of indians on their visas taking jobs from whitey. no big row over that, now is there? (maybe they're next?)

 

[Westy]

after reading my post (really, who has time to do that before you click 'post'?), i feel the need to clarify i don't believe illegal immigration is the reason why we have crime. but it does play a role, and it's not exactly through a scared straight program.

gang activity & human trafficking won't disappear if "we shipped 'em all back", but who among us can be convinced it would have no appreciable effect?

again, i need to acknowledge obama's position on this as one of the most sane, reasonable, & respectful to all interested parties

I'd probably bet that crime rates among illegal's is probably lower than economically equivalent Mericans.

 

[$tinkle]

I'd probably bet that crime rates among illegal's is probably lower than economically equivalent Mericans.

i assume you mean "not including the crimes of entering the country illegally, driving w/o a license (and ins where req by state), and committing fraud on various public assistance forms"?

if so, i'd agree to that, if for no other reason they don't want to get deported, which would be judiciously appropriate.

 

[Westy]

i assume you mean "not including the crimes of entering the country illegally, driving w/o a license (and ins where req by state), and committing fraud on various public assistance forms"?

if so, i'd agree to that, if for no other reason they don't want to get deported, which would be judiciously appropriate.

Yeah, I was just thinking of property/violent crimes.

 

[Silver]

ok, others don't deserve a srs answer, but you do, so here goes:

by 'acting up', i'm talking about all criminal activity, violent (vast minority of illegal immigrants, i presume), and non-violent, most prominently drug trafficking, property crime & others that results in lower quality of life & property values, increased unemployment, & degrade a sense of safety

for you to presume the vast majority of illegal immigrants are as law-abiding as joe sickpack except for that one unreasonable border issue is rather odd. how did you arrive at this conclusion? (i derive from your prev stmts this is mostly in line w/ your position; advise if i'm mistaken.)

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1717575,00.html

 

[Pesqueeb]

for the intellectually lazy, yes, it certainly does.

but the most part, note the significant number of indians on their visas taking jobs from whitey. no big row over that, now is there? (maybe they're next?)

No more intellectually lazy than repeating right wing talking points that illegal immigrant = crime

by 'acting up', i'm talking about all criminal activity, violent (vast minority of illegal immigrants, i presume), and non-violent, most prominently drug trafficking, property crime & others that results in lower quality of life & property values, increased unemployment, & degrade a sense of safety

*edit. Sniped by silver

 

[Pesqueeb]

driving w/o a license (and ins where req by state), and committing fraud on various public assistance forms?

God, I would so lay money down that there are no more illegals doing this than white trailer trash with one too many DUI's.

 

[$tinkle]

Yeah, I was just thinking of property/violent crimes.

in the middle of the night when someone eggs cars or puts their throw up on a neighbor's fence, i don't go looking for mexicans, i look for white boyz w/ daddy issues.

then, i turn them out.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1717575,00.html

funny, this whole time i thought we were talking about illegal immigration.

God, I would so lay money down that there are no more illegals doing this than white trailer trash with one too many DUI's.

ironically, we'd sooner eradicate chlamydia than trailer trash.

 

[Pesqueeb]

funny, this whole time i thought we were talking about illegal immigration.

And while the number of illegal immigrants in the country doubled between 1994 and 2005, violent crime dropped by nearly 35% and property crimes by 26% http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1717575,00.html

You need to read past the second paragraph.

ironically, we'd sooner eradicate chlamydia than trailer trash.

Chicken/Egg or Egg/Chicken?

 

[dante]

Ohes noes, a movie is coming out featuring white people as the BAD GUYS!!! Call Faux News!! Call the tea party! It's RACIST!!

http://www.aintitcool.com/node/44943

 

[$tinkle]

You need to read past the second paragraph.

i did.
i prev gave mention to parts in this para (bolded):

Critics note that studies such as those mentioned above rarely distinguish between legal and illegal immigrants. Reliable data that separates the two groups is hard to find, but Indiana University economist Eric Rasmusen has culled figures from a 2005 GAO report on foreigners incarcerated in Federal and state prisons to calculate that illegal immigrants commit 21% of all crime in the United States, costing the country more than $84 billion. Rasmusen contends the distinction is important because immigrants with a green card or U.S. citizenship have already jumped through several legal hoops to live and work in the U.S., including a background check into any prior criminal record back home. "Legal immigrants are by definition unusually law-abiding," Rasmusen wrote last June. But Professor Daniel Mears, a Florida State University criminologist, argues that such reasoning can also be turned on its head. "If someone is here illegally," Mears asks, "why would they call attention to themselves by committing a crime?"

furthermore, if 21% of crime is committed by illegal immigrants (doesn't speak to recidivism, which could adjust those numbers), yet they make up <10% of the gen pop, you can see an i-told-you-so bullet on some right wing talking points.

now, it may be the category of "crime" may largely be class IV misdemeanors, but i didn't find that data.

 

[ohio]

ok, others don't deserve a srs answer, but you do, so here goes:

by 'acting up', i'm talking about all criminal activity, violent (vast minority of illegal immigrants, i presume), and non-violent, most prominently drug trafficking, property crime & others that results in lower quality of life & property values, increased unemployment, & degrade a sense of safety

for you to presume the vast majority of illegal immigrants are as law-abiding as joe sickpack except for that one unreasonable border issue is rather odd. how did you arrive at this conclusion? (i derive from your prev stmts this is mostly in line w/ your position; advise if i'm mistaken.)

Yes, you're right about my position. I do separate the crime of illegal entry and residency from the others, because I think it sits in a place of moral ambiguity that the other crimes do not. Therefore, I do not assume it is a reflection of character the same way I do for the other crimes you listed (both violent and non-violent). I will acknowledge that part of the reason it is morally ambiguous is because of US government/society/industry's own complicity in the crime, but also because the negative impact of this behavior is removed enough from the action that I think it beyond the capacity of most perpetrators to understand that impact. I put it in the same category as people who drive H2s and Excursions to "protect my family."

So yes, I think we are discussing the same definition of "acting up," and I think I am standing on firm ground to say that it is unfair to describe that behavior as a reflection on the entire illegal population, anymore than it is a fair reflection to blame mafia crime on all italians and russians, all urban crime on blacks, and all white collar crime on waspy MBAs.

Again, I am not forgiving the crime of illegal residency, nor am I opposed to profiling for addressing gang-related crime. I am opposed to confusing the two. I am also opposed to feel-good legislation that coddles a majority while actually reducing our rights and failing to strategically address root problems.

 

[ohio]

That Robert Rodriguez has some impeccable timing. It's like Arizona is doing film promotion for him.

Definitely on my must-see list.

 

[$tinkle]

I do separate the crime of illegal entry and residency from the others, because I think it sits in a place of moral ambiguity that the other crimes do not. Therefore, I do not assume it is a reflection of character the same way I do for the other crimes you listed (both violent and non-violent).

so, is it fair to say you see this as heinous a crime as, say, trespassing? if so, you must be fine w/ it so long as it's literally nimby. i'm with you on the moral ambiguity on moving violations or seemingly arbitrary infractions (e.g., pot possession), or no mtn bikes allowed on the most remote of trails yet allow moto & horses, but for me cutting the line is where i draw the line. so at least we have clarity on this

I put it in the same category as people who drive H2s and Excursions to "protect my family."

i reserve a special judgment for this lot


lastly, just in time for this thread, my [obviously right wing] cousin emailed me this. cApItAlIsAtIoN and

spacing preserved

for
your
enjoyment:

YES, WE GOT IT RIGHT, NOW WE UNDERSTAND WHY



WE HAVE A PROBLEM AND OTHER COUNTRIES DO NOT!!!






""

""""""""""""
""

"""""""L"""""""et me see if I got this right... • - IF YOU CROSS THE NORTH KOREAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU GET 12 YEARS HARD LABOR.
• - IF YOU CROSS THE IRANIAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU ARE DETAINED INDEFINITELY.
• - IF YOU CROSS THE AFGHAN BORDER ILLEGALLY, YOU GET SHOT.
• - IF YOU CROSS THE SAUDI ARABIAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU WILL BE JAILED.
• - IF YOU CROSS THE CHINESE BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU MAY NEVER BE HEARD FROM AGAIN.
• - IF YOU CROSS THE VENEZUELAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU WILL BE BRANDED A SPY AND YOUR FATE WILL BE SEALED.
• - IF YOU CROSS THE CUBAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU WILL BE THROWN INTO POLITICAL PRISON TO ROT.
• - IF YOU CROSS THE U.S. BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU GET................................

1 - A JOB"""",

""""""""" """""2 - A DRIVERS LICENSE,
3 - SOCIAL SECURITY CARD,
4 - WELFARE,
5 - FOOD STAMPS,
6 - CREDIT CARDS,
7 - SUBSIDIZED RENT OR A LOAN TO BUY A HOUSE,
8 - FREE EDUCATION,
9 - FREE HEALTH CARE,
10 - A LOBBYIST IN WASHINGTON ,
11 - BILLIONS OF DOLLARS WORTH OF PUBLIC DOCUMENTS PRINTED

IN YOUR LANGUAGE,
12 - AND THE RIGHT TO CARRY YOUR COUNTRY'S FLAG WHILE YOU

PROTEST THAT YOU DON'T GET ENOUGH RESPECT.



I JUST WANTED TO MAKE SURE

I HAD A FIRM GRASP ON THE SITUATION...

(if you'd like to see the one that arrived 30 seconds later, google "Corn Flakes now come in a Bilingual box")

 

[Silver]

Why am I not surprised that your cousin and his stupid racist Jesus loving ass holds up third world ****holes and totalitarian dictatorships as examples of desirable behavior.

 

[kidwoo]

So according to the automated right wing douchebag social network known as "funny email" we'd be better off as a socialist, dictotorial, theocratic or communist nation.


The logic is awesome.

 

[$tinkle]

Why am I not surprised that your cousin and his stupid racist Jesus loving ass holds up third world ****holes and totalitarian dictatorships as examples of desirable behavior.

now, now...he's just following orders.

besides, he can't even pronounce 'eichmann'

 

[ohio]

so, is it fair to say you see this as heinous a crime as, say, trespassing? if so, you must be fine w/ it so long as it's literally nimby. i'm with you on the moral ambiguity on moving violations or seemingly arbitrary infractions

Trespassing: yes for "detouring," no for "frolicking," to use the legal terminology I caught on NPR yesterday. Not sure what you mean by NIMBY in this case. It's not like we're without illegals here in SF/bay area.

On the moral ambiguity, I actually put it below moving violations as a tool to judge character (though, I'd put it above moving violation in terms of detriment to society). A moving violation is a purely selfish act, just one you think will have no ill effect. In the case of illegals with no family, it's about the same but I think most have families, and that is part of their decision-making process. Illegal immigration is one that, for most, is an effort to help those closest to you at the expense of those more removed from you. More removed than even, say, the classic "steal a loaf of bread to feed the family" moral dilemma.

 

[Pesqueeb]

i did.
i prev gave mention to parts in this para (bolded):furthermore, if 21% of crime is committed by illegal immigrants (doesn't speak to recidivism, which could adjust those numbers), yet they make up <10% of the gen pop, you can see an i-told-you-so bullet on some right wing talking points.

now, it may be the category of "crime" may largely be class IV misdemeanors, but i didn't find that data.

That argument hold no water. African Americans make up 14 percent of the US population yet 44 percent of all prisoners in the United States are black. I'm guessing most are legal residents. So again, to me this speaks to not an immigration issue but a race issue. Putting people with skin pigment in jail is also "an i-told-you-so bullet on some right wing talking points".

 

[blue]

Is $tinkle debating points based on specious eloquent argumentation again?

Seriously - I can't figure out for the life of me why most individuals are too dense to see the big picture in relation to illegal immigration. Using xenophobia to reinforce societal retardation is detrimental to everyone beneath the 98th income percentile in the Etatos Unidos.

 

[$tinkle]

Why am I not surprised that your cousin and his stupid racist Jesus loving ass holds up third world ****holes and totalitarian dictatorships as examples of desirable behavior.

speaking of moral equivalency:

[Assistant Secretary of State Michael] Posner said in addition to talks on freedom of religion and expression, labor rights and rule of law, officials also discussed Chinese complaints about problems with U.S. human rights, which have included crime, poverty, homelessness and racial discrimination.

He said U.S. officials did not whitewash the American record and in fact raised on its [sic] own a new immigration law in Arizona that requires police to ask about a person's immigration status if there is suspicion the person is in the country illegally.

and mccain & kyl own his ass here:

According to the 2009 Human Rights Report produced by your bureau, China remains one of the worst human rights offenders, and its record is only worsening. Your bureau's report details how democracy activists, religious groups, journalists, and human rights advocates in China continue to be "targeted for arbitrary arrest, detention, and harassment." The report also describes the brutal tactics the Chinese regime uses to suppress these peaceful groups: "security forces reportedly committed arbitrary or unlawful killings," "officials used electric shocks, beatings, shackles, and other forms of abuse," and "arbitrary arrest and detention remained serious problems." To compare in any way the lawful and democratic act of the government of the state of Arizona with the arbitrary abuses of the unelected Chinese Communist Party is inappropriate and offensive.

That argument hold no water. African Americans make up 14 percent of the US population yet 44 percent of all prisoners in the United States are black. I'm guessing most are legal residents. So again, to me this speaks to not an immigration issue but a race issue.

so blacks are locked up not for the crimes they committed but b/c our system is racist, or are you saying there's something about blacks that make them disproportionately prone to criminal activity?

i could see that our system is racist if the conviction rates were skewed along race lines (vs. economic).

to point out blacks are incarcerated at a disproportionate rate doesn't disprove my point, but it does appear to acknowledge an economic element, especially if we are to believe illegal immigrants just want a better life than from their impoverished homeland.

and yes, blue, we're just like every other country before us: we have our fair share of xenophobes. we're not very original here.

 

[Pesqueeb]

so blacks are locked up not for the crimes they committed but b/c our system is racist

Yes, I believe that plays a part, but mostly its a socio/economic issue.

to point out blacks are incarcerated at a disproportionate rate doesn't disprove my point, but it does appear to acknowledge an economic element, especially if we are to believe illegal immigrants just want a better life than from their impoverished homeland.

Exactly. They aren't here for the weather and friendly people.

The report also describes the brutal tactics the Chinese regime uses to suppress these peaceful groups: "security forces reportedly committed arbitrary or unlawful killings," "officials used electric shocks, beatings, shackles, and other forms of abuse," and "arbitrary arrest and detention remained serious problems." To compare in any way the lawful and democratic act of the government of the state of Arizona with the arbitrary abuses of the unelected Chinese Communist Party is inappropriate and offensive.

Clearly the Chinese are barbarians for allowing that sort of stuff to happen in their country. If the were smart they would hire out torture and do it in other countries in black prison sites like we do.

 

[manimal]

 

[Pesqueeb]

Ummm....Isn't the Alamo in texas?

 

[blue]

Trolling for you is getting a little too easy, whitey.

 

[manimal]

whitey.

actually...i prefer "freckled" or "Appalachian American"

and since we're throwing around the politically correct euphemisms, what shall we use to refer to you? "Anally Enlightened", "Wisdom Deficit Disorder", "Life-Experience challenged"...or should we just continue referring to you as "Le Douche"?

 

[$tinkle]

Ariz. Lawmaker Targets Illegal Immigrant Kids

oh snap; swinging for the yet-to-be-built fence:

PHOENIX -- Emboldened by passage of the nation's toughest law against illegal immigration, the Arizona politician who sponsored the measure now wants to deny U.S. citizenship to children born in this country to undocumented parents.

Legal scholars laugh out loud at Republican state Sen. Russell Pearce's proposal and warn that it would be blatantly unconstitutional, since the 14th Amendment guarantees citizenship to anyone born in the U.S.

But Pearce brushes aside such concerns.

atta boy; nothing like a little open jingoistic xenophobia to get re-elected

 

[Silver]

actually...i prefer "freckled" or "Appalachian American"

and since we're throwing around the politically correct euphemisms, what shall we use to refer to you? "Anally Enlightened", "Wisdom Deficit Disorder", "Life-Experience challenged"...or should we just continue referring to you as "Le Douche"?

Ha! A fag joke.

 

[dante]

Wait, is this a joke on the fact that our military is made up of a greater percentage of minority soldiers than is representative in the US? Is this a sad reminder that the US military is using the impoverished (and often minority) youths today because those youths feel that there is no other escape from the cycle of poverty imposed on them by the capitalist system?

Wow, Manimal, I never thought that you were so enlightened...

 

[rockofullr]

Zombie thread attack!

Heard this report on National Liberal Radio this morning.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=130833741

Interesting behind the scenes stuff, worth a read.

 

[jonKranked]

 

[kidwoo]

Zombie thread attack!

Heard this report on National Liberal Radio this morning.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=130833741

Interesting behind the scenes stuff, worth a read.

Kinda funny how easily a corporation puts thoughts into people's heads and makes them think they NEED legislation ain't it?

 

[jonKranked]

Kinda scary how easily a corporation puts thoughts into people's heads and makes them think they NEED legislation ain't it?

fixed

 

[rockofullr]

For those interested. NPR continued the ALEC story today.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=130891396

Edit: Here's the other side.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2010/10/29/20101029russell-pearce-sb-1070-story-lie.html

 

[jasride]

For those interested. NPR continued the ALEC story today.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2010/10/29/20101029russell-pearce-sb-1070-story-lie.html

But Pearce said most of those detained would likely be detained in city or county jails, not private prisons.

Wow, he must know for sure that weed and maybe even cocaine could become legal very soon because I'm sure he knows and understands how over populated city and county jails are already.

Interesting reads, thanks man.

 

[$tinkle]

fulfilled prophecy tactical fistbump