manitou dorado tuning tips
- Thread starter 92SE-R
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Just finished rebuilding it with some 7wt Maxima fork racing oil (The good stuff in the blue bottle, not the ****ty water stuff in the green one). Parking lot test shows a lot of improvement. Definitely getting more mid stroke damping. I'm hopefully going to Mammoth or Big Bear next weekend and will put it through the paces.if you rebuild it with 7,5wt oil please tell me how it goes
I just want a little more support on the midstroke when going through a steep section with bumps
And yes, overall the fork feels amazing, and perfect at speed in rough chatter!
Also after about 7 days of medium-hard resort riding the oil still looked good and the oil seals were still well lubed. That thing is really easy to take apart as well. Once the leg is off the bike I could probably change the oil and grease the seals in 5 minutes.
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Not if you're going to make it stiff. Yes if you're just going to slap something together like a Shiver.
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I added 5 o 6 psi to make it firmer and now its perfect, but tell me how it goes when you come back next weekend!!
thanks!
Been the heart of the DHX 5.0 and DHX RC4 for many years now. I'd hardly say it was the wrong venue for it.Seems pretty honest actually. That's a nice change for MTB.
Though going to have to disagree about SPV, the entire sport of mountain biking was the wrong venue for that technology
Well, given the fact that the RC4 actually uses traditional mountain bike/motorcycle damping, with only an "assist" in the reservoir, I'd say I'm pretty comfortable with what I said. I'm not sure if you remember the main valves controlled by SPV in the 5th element and curnutt shocks, but they were terrible, horrible damping. The DHX "decoupled" SPV to some extent, not totally, but it had a traditional stack and was a relief compared to the stuff that was sold the couple years before. The RC4 further decouples this and adds real low-speed/high-speed damping like most motorcycle shocks have had for years. It is absolutely not the "heart" of the RC4. Go look at a cut-out and find the SPV valve. If you think it performs well because it has that SPV valve in the res, I guess that makes it work for you, but I've had enough shocks to know it's the real compression valving that makes the difference. The regular DHX spiked a lot at high speed, not terrible like the 5th, but not a spectacular shock. It was at least fairly consistent. There were times when I preferred a vanilla R or RC to the DHX, due to the spiking, although those shocks could be overwhelmed easier and the lack of low-speed control was an issue.
Yeah, I'll say it again, it has no place in MTB. It's taken something like 15 years to get the valving and compression damping that have been in motorcross and auto-sports for years, now with the FIT type dampers, CCDB and others, we are actually seeing a lot of this finally being applied to mountain bikes. SPV was and is a poor band-aid for poor suspension design. I'd rather have an avalanche with high/low compression and day and sunday than an RC4 with with that SPV valve, but I'd also take an RC4 with that valve gutted and the rest of the internals set for my weight, assuming the bike wasn't some crazy falling-rate design from 2001.
If SPV was all that great, it'd still be speced on XC bikes making them "pedal" because of their "threshold". The problem with this is that there's NO activity until it reaches that threshold, so you get zero benefits of suspension until this is met, and any time you encounter a bump, there is always a delay until the suspension overcomes this, during which time the bump is transmitted to you very efficiently, making for ill-performing suspension. This is why the function has been scaled way back. Yes, fox thinks the ability to adjust the "progressiveness" is important, but the technology creates more problems than it solves. Good old low-speed compression damping with transition to high speed is where it's been all along IMO, where you can increase the resistance to g-outs and suspension movement without taking such a huge penalty in the overall performance.
SPV is definitely not "the heart" of the RC4.
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Well if you're a slow gaper who enjoys bottoming out a lot, then the RC4 is definitely not for you. I have yet to encounter a non-SPV rear shock that has adequate resistance to truly aggressive g-outs and big features without having your HSC locked out and bouncing around the rest of the course like a hardtail.
The only difference is the SPV in the RC4 is part of the passive valve and not the main piston, and that makes it the most adjustable shock on the market at the moment (yes, more adjustable than the CCDB, it's easy to find the adjusting limits of that shock very quickly on most frames).
5th Elements also has the additional plagueing problem of MASSIVE seal drag, also simulating the low speed threshold you're referring to. With a Swinger chrome shaft in the shock, AND the SPV still in it, it was actually very smooth and effective. Even Swinger shocks weren't that bad. The only reason those shocks and the 5th's were harsh at high speed were the tiny ports in the bridge that caused a high-speed spiking - absolutely nothing to do with the SPV. The "shim conversions" that people did on them used a shimstack that was SO light as a bandaid to remove some of the huge pressure from the front side of the piston.
The only difference is the SPV in the RC4 is part of the passive valve and not the main piston, and that makes it the most adjustable shock on the market at the moment (yes, more adjustable than the CCDB, it's easy to find the adjusting limits of that shock very quickly on most frames).
5th Elements also has the additional plagueing problem of MASSIVE seal drag, also simulating the low speed threshold you're referring to. With a Swinger chrome shaft in the shock, AND the SPV still in it, it was actually very smooth and effective. Even Swinger shocks weren't that bad. The only reason those shocks and the 5th's were harsh at high speed were the tiny ports in the bridge that caused a high-speed spiking - absolutely nothing to do with the SPV. The "shim conversions" that people did on them used a shimstack that was SO light as a bandaid to remove some of the huge pressure from the front side of the piston.
LOL@SPV It's being used as an aid for bottoming, not for controlling the main damping, and it's definitely not the "heart" of the RC4, but that's one shock out of everything available today, well, foes still makes some shocks, but I'm not sure anyone buys those anymore, SPV was so good they had to start making linkage bikes and running traditional shocks. Thanks for proving my point, but I must say if you're using SPV to control chassi stability that's got to be one wacky setup. IMO the biggest problems these days is adjusting high speed rebound and compression, because those are very dependent on the bike and rider/weight/style, not easy to design a "one for all" shock, but CCDB has managed it and shock tuning companies/manufacturers are alive and well now that will give you something valved correctly from the get-go and not just set at whatever seems to be a good idea for a narrow range of riders.
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SPV/CVT valves make the system position sensitive, as it varies with oil pressure. Damn straight it controls chassis stability. As has been stated before on here, that shocks damping has to be plotted as force vs. position vs. velocity in 3D.
Adding air pressure/oil pressure shifts the entire damping range of the shock. If that passive valve (in series with the LSC/HSC) is pressurized differently, it changes the pressure drop over the passive valve dramatically.
If you don't know how these things actually work, that's cool. I know data and facts stand no chance against belligerence.
The CCDB does an ass job of HSC/HSR adjustments. Full choke, or blow through, on both ends. Pressures inside that shock at high speeds are REALLY wacky. Just ride one through a super high speed G-out sometime and try to tune it for such things and you'll see.
Adding air pressure/oil pressure shifts the entire damping range of the shock. If that passive valve (in series with the LSC/HSC) is pressurized differently, it changes the pressure drop over the passive valve dramatically.
If you don't know how these things actually work, that's cool. I know data and facts stand no chance against belligerence.
The CCDB does an ass job of HSC/HSR adjustments. Full choke, or blow through, on both ends. Pressures inside that shock at high speeds are REALLY wacky. Just ride one through a super high speed G-out sometime and try to tune it for such things and you'll see.
Anyone else having problems with bushing wear/play? Had massive play after the first season, got the upper tubes replaced on warranty. Then again the same massive play after the second season.
Problem is, that the inner tubes start scratching on the inside of the upper tubes when there is play in the bushings.
Then for the third time now, the valve is leaking air. One time between positive and negative Chamber, two times through the valve shaft. Second time only half a season after a service.
Performance is great, only reliability poor on mine. I'm riding a 2010 BOS Idylle Rare now. In my eyes the Dorado is on level with that much more expensive BOS.
Problem is, that the inner tubes start scratching on the inside of the upper tubes when there is play in the bushings.
Then for the third time now, the valve is leaking air. One time between positive and negative Chamber, two times through the valve shaft. Second time only half a season after a service.
Performance is great, only reliability poor on mine. I'm riding a 2010 BOS Idylle Rare now. In my eyes the Dorado is on level with that much more expensive BOS.
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Going through a set of bushings in a season of riding sounds pretty reasonable if you ask me...sounds like the bushings themselves should have been replaced LONG before they started allowing the tubes to come totally out of parallel.
The valve fix is very, very easy. You just need a crescent wrench and a 2.5mm allen key. Allen key thru the main piston hole and adjust until the valve core (sticking out the top where the top cap is) is protruding 1-1.5mm. Measure this with some calipers. I've noticed a bunch of these coming set incorrect from the factory. As I said, easy fix.
This is by a LONG shot the easiest MTB fork I've ever worked on.
Sorry, but going through a set of bushings in less than a season is absolutely not reasonable. I am not doing races every weekend or so. My downhill season is only 5 to 6 months of a year. I never ever saw a fork going through a set of bushings every season.
The german distro sends the forks to the US for bushings replacement, nothing you really want in a running season.
The german distro sends the forks to the US for bushings replacement, nothing you really want in a running season.
Was it both bushings that went out? Or just one side? I pulled apart the air spring side of mine last night. As expected the seals were a bit deficient in grease. But more worryingly the leg was fairly devoid of oil. Maybe 5-10cc in the upper chamber. I'll be pulling apart another friends this weekend or early next week. But they seem to be having a pattern of poor QC on assembly. Luckily as Hacktastic said its ridiculously easy to work on these things. Greasing the oil seals and changing the oil takes about 5-10 minutes total to do both sides once its off the bike.
something like ~200ml in the damper like, and 50-60 in the spring side. Not sure on exact numbers.
No way, I thought you of all people would think quite the contrary. There's nothing reasonable about that and screams poor engineering. I imagine if a Fox or RS had "massive play" in less than a season you'd have a different opinion.
Derp? Huh?
When I think of "a full season" of riding, I'm assuming the maximum - Whistler locals who are racking up probably 100 hours or more of actual riding time over a summer and some shuttle days here and there. That's about the service interval for moto bushings, which are usually of equivalent quality. I think that's perfectly reasonable. It's a wear item.
I see 40's and Boxxers and 888's all the time with huge amounts of play in them. If it comes from the factory like that or develops really fast, that's something to squawk about. Not with that amount of time on them from any manufacturer though.
What I think is total horse-**** is the fact they can't be easily replaced in most mountain bike forks, and mandate a replacement of a major structural part of the fork to change a simple $2 wear item.
I've ridden a 40 and a Boxxer for a full season in the conditions you describe (Whistler and PDS) and neither fork developed any play at all. In fact I put two such seasons on a 40, and probably even more on the Boxxer. That same Boxxer finally developed play this year on my cousin's bike after 5 years of riding. The 40 started wearing bushings after 2 busy seasons (one in PDS, one in Whistler + many riding roadtrips around Canada). I still felt this was unacceptable, and on request Fox warrantied it with all new parts.
I don't think either of those two products are perfect, but I've seen you rip on them - yet when the Dorado becomes a disaster in 5-6 months (of non-resort riding seemingly - read above) it's reasonable? Just calling you out because I'm a jerk like that.
FWIW - both those forks are 5min jobs to service too, and on the Fox at least, bushing replacements are a common service procedure and the lowers do not require replacement. I do know that's a problem with RS (and needing to replace lowers is stupid), but in fairness RS actually seem to have less issues with bushing wear than other brands from what I've seen in bike parks.
To be fair, that's because boxxers are machined to sh*t tolerances and use super tight bushings to compensate.
But yeah, you should be able to get at least 20-50 hours of SADDLE TIME, i.e. hundreds of thousands of feet of vert before bushings go out. If you're getting <10 hours something is wrong, or the design is sh*T.
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I haven't owned a Boxxer in years and have no reason to defend them, but that particular fork slid very freely from day one, and never had stiction or play issues. It lasted 5 years before finally developing play under its 2nd owner (quite recently).
That is reasonable. 5 months is not.
That is reasonable. 5 months is not.
What I've noticed with most forks is people ride with the bushings clapped out for a long time and think they're perfectly fine. If you can lean the thing over and have it bind up while sitting still, they're toast. If you push perfectly straight on the fork, sure it'll move smooth because it's a loose slip fit now. But I'm anal about these sorts of things.I've ridden a 40 and a Boxxer for a full season in the conditions you describe (Whistler and PDS) and neither fork developed any play at all. In fact I put two such seasons on a 40, and probably even more on the Boxxer. That same Boxxer finally developed play this year on my cousin's bike after 5 years of riding. The 40 started wearing bushings after 2 busy seasons (one in PDS, one in Whistler + many riding roadtrips around Canada). I still felt this was unacceptable, and on request Fox warrantied it with all new parts.
I don't think either of those two products are perfect, but I've seen you rip on them - yet when the Dorado becomes a disaster in 5-6 months (of non-resort riding seemingly - read above) it's reasonable? Just calling you out because I'm a jerk like that.
FWIW - both those forks are 5min jobs to service too, and on the Fox at least, bushing replacements are a common service procedure and the lowers do not require replacement. I do know that's a problem with RS (and needing to replace lowers is stupid), but in fairness RS actually seem to have less issues with bushing wear than other brands from what I've seen in bike parks.
Bushings wearing to THAT extreme where there are serious angularity issues is certainly not reasonable, but replacing it once a year (on any fork) as a wear item I think is realistic. I rip on them for a long list of other reasons.
Plus, I think the Boxxers have less problems with long term bushing wear because the rest of the fork doesn't last long enough to wear them out.
I rode Mammoth this past weekend with the thicker oil. It definitely helped. I was able to run the adjusters a lot further out. And I think overall it felt much better. I'm still hoping to find a way to improve midstroke support a little bit more. I might play around with using oil to reduce the air spring volume or something.
I tried it too with 7,5wt oil and its a good improvement! still very supple and plush but with more midstroke support
Yeah just make sure you grease the seals and double check the spring side. Mine had almost no lubricating oil. It definitely made a difference on the feel of the fork once I remedied that. I'll report back with the air spring volume stuff. Hopefully I'll be able to get that done before I go to whistler.I tried it too with 7,5wt oil and its a good improvement! still very supple and plush but with more midstroke support
I didnt open the spring side. But I´ll check, thanks!!!
Yeah, the poor QC on the assembly of these things is kind of ridiculous for a $1600 fork. If it weren't so easy to work on these things I'd be really pissed. But at least they sorted me out painlessly...and the fork doesn't feel like ****.
I've noticed the Boxxers don't leak as much once all the oil is gone.
Yeah I'm not sure how I feel about the flex. I'm not convinced it's a bad thing. I've done some horrible things to the fork the past two weeks across BC. I don't think the flex has negatively impacted my riding though. I think it's just something you have to get used to. Tomorrow is my last day at whistler and I plan on trying to pay a lot of attention to the fork.
I definitely feel like it's most noticeable / worse when the trail is very rocky and slow.
When I changed to the stiffer "race" setup, I noticed it a lot less. In the "freeride" setup, it was a bit of a problem for me. But I'll keep switching setups every few days for a bit. Maybe I just need more time to get used to it.
Interesting. I'm coming off a 888 evo and weigh about 185 plus gear. I started with it set up stiff (probably too stiff for me) and was surprised that I didn't feel it squirm or feel weird at our local hill, which has a good bit of slowish rocky stuff, being on the East Coast and all. I've been backing off on the air pressure and slowy increasing damping since I think I lean slightly toward the undersprung/overdamped side in terms of my preferences. I still haven't noted any bothersome flex. I know that Gemini is a pretty big guy...how big are you Tomasz?
I'm a whopping 160 and started the air pressure on the moderately lighter side, at 55psi. The "freeride" setup is far softer that "race" setup (duh), and whilst it did feel squirmy, was so obscenely plush...
Seems reasonable that the softer setups would magnify any imprecision - of course soft is imprecise in and of itself too.
Am coming off of the Boxxer WCs, which are very stiff and precise. May just be an adjustment on my end which was needed.
Seems reasonable that the softer setups would magnify any imprecision - of course soft is imprecise in and of itself too.
Am coming off of the Boxxer WCs, which are very stiff and precise. May just be an adjustment on my end which was needed.
I found on tracks like RDS a stiffer fork means I can hit ruts from steep entries more confidently and thus consistently faster.
Each time I've gone to a stiffer fork I've been able to push a little harder. On the odd occasion I've gone to a flexier fork (in the past due to not being able to get the damping I want in a stiffer item) I've felt an increase in vagueness under hard cornering (less feedback, decreased ability to hold the line I want) and a tendency to spring back from flex awkwardly when pushed into ruts sideways.
I used to take some flex as a fair trade-off for the damping I wanted, but these days I don't feel there's any need to make that compromise with the products available.
Each time I've gone to a stiffer fork I've been able to push a little harder. On the odd occasion I've gone to a flexier fork (in the past due to not being able to get the damping I want in a stiffer item) I've felt an increase in vagueness under hard cornering (less feedback, decreased ability to hold the line I want) and a tendency to spring back from flex awkwardly when pushed into ruts sideways.
I used to take some flex as a fair trade-off for the damping I wanted, but these days I don't feel there's any need to make that compromise with the products available.
Just received a new Dorado Expert from the factory. Are they suppose to ship with 2 crowns (flat and tall)? I only received a flat crown.
Nope, just the flat crown.
They don't come with the two crowns any more. I've been looking at getting an expert.